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Subject to the terms of the developer agreement which each dev must agree to.
I dispute that if such agreements are movable targets across time forcing bets against your properties by unilateral imposition that if not agreed harms your customers and by logical erosion leads to losses from thousands to billions … than are legally moot.

Every time there is an update in iOS there a new agreement of multiple pages you need to skip. If it happens that you don’t agree, you can’t update. Which means that your property stops partially fulfilling the duties for what it was acquired. Meaning … you don’t agree but you loose money indirectly. Now imagine a digital services with thousands of customers using their smart phone or tablet of choice … what happens if they don’t agree?
 
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What happens when apps that millions rely on everyday like Microsoft Office or Adobe CC move to side loading rather being available on the the App Store? It will essentially force users to side load and that will open Pandora’s box. That is my main issue with it. Many will be forced that direction if they want to use certain apps that they already rely on.

Why would big apps like that move to side loading only? They won’t do that because they will lose users. Take a look in the android store? Nothing like that has ever happened that I know of. You guys seriously think that is going to happen? Damn, Android must be a lot more secure than iOS then. Because they’ve allowed side loading as far back as I can remember and they are doing fine. Come on. That’s a stretch don’t you think?

Besides, you can already side load on an iPhone. And nothing horrible has happened to you yet, right?
 
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I dispute that if such agreements are movable targets across time forcing bets against your properties by unilateral imposition that if not agreed harms your customers and by logical erosion leads to losses from thousands to billions … than are legally moot.
That’s for the courts to decide.
Every time there is an update in iOS there a new agreement of multiple pages you need to skip. If it happens that you don’t agree, you can’t update. Which means that your property stops partially fulfilling the duties for what it was acquired. Meaning … you don’t agree but you loose money indirectly. Now imagine a digital services with thousands of customers using their smart phone or tablet of choice … what happens if they don’t agree?
Whataboutism? Is there any basis in this hypothetical situation? Or is the remedy the court system?
 
Subject to the terms of the developer agreement which each dev must agree to. While apple has to be above board in these agreements, it’s still their store and they get to decide what the scope of services the apps will deliver and some other rules around these services. As I explained over and over.

Of course they get to decide over the destiny of their properties according to the law in the countries they operate. It does not happen in a vacuum.

In South Korea they were ordered by a committee of judges to change the policy and have yet to comply. In the US they were ordered by a judge to change their policy and have yet to comply.

Everyone is waiting …
 
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Whataboutism? Is there any basis in this hypothetical situation? Or is the remedy the court system?

What hypothetical situation? Do you even use iPhones because it often changes in agreement are presented with a bottom left button Agree right before an update. If you do not … “no update”. This not an Apple practice only by the way.

Whataboutism is thinking that devs or people will disagree with the presented agreements in such situations.

I’ve seen agreements being reversed with penalties. Courts of course take into consideration the context of the agreement signature as well as the history of changes in the agreement. It’s not tough luck and bye.

Most of this things are agreed in good will and faith. It’s not like signing a business contract between companies or say signing a loan contract where lawyers are involved so on and so forth.

Apple not want that. It would be impractical … it would sell less iPhones and iPads. I’m all for less burocracy.
 
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I dispute that if such agreements are movable targets across time forcing bets against your properties by unilateral imposition that if not agreed harms your customers and by logical erosion leads to losses from thousands to billions … than are legally moot.

Every time there is an update in iOS there a new agreement of multiple pages you need to skip. If it happens that you don’t agree, you can’t update. Which means that your property stops partially fulfilling the duties for what it was acquired. Meaning … you don’t agree but you loose money indirectly. Now imagine a digital services with thousands of customers using their smart phone or tablet of choice … what happens if they don’t agree?
[…].

In South Korea they were ordered by a committee of judges to change the policy and have yet to comply. In the US they were ordered by a judge to change their policy and have yet to comply.

Everyone is waiting …
Everyone is waiting for what? In the US there is an appeal and December 9 is the date, probably the same in South Korea.
What hypothetical situation? Do you even use iPhones because it often changes in agreement are presented with a bottom left button Agree right before an update. If you do not … “no update”. This not an Apple practice only by the way.

Whataboutism is thinking that devs or people will disagree with the presented agreements in such situations.

I’ve seen agreements being reversed with penalties. Courts of course take into consideration the context of the agreement signature as well as the history of changes in the agreement. It’s not tough luck and bye.

Most of this things are agreed in good will and faith. It’s not like signing a business contract between companies or say signing a loan contract where lawyers are involved so on and so forth.

Apple not want that. It would be impractical … it would sell less iPhones and iPads. I’m all for less burocracy.
You were the one that mentioned that apple could disenfranchise developers by changing the TOS.
 
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I suppose your not familiar with the term “sourced”. For instance Apple sources it’s components for multiple suppliers … the sources.
I don’t know what you want me to say. I wrote the sentence and, in the sentence I wrote, sources is not a synonym for suppliers.

As for your sentence point … yes end? Because that has never been your core point. I’m counter arguing your core reasoning against the iPhone and iPad users ability of sourcing apps from others entities but the App Store. That is what sodeloading is in this context. An argument that you equate to lowering security and privacy.
IMy core point is, “If you take steps to lower the security of a system, then you end up with a less secure system and invite NEW exploits.” It’s always been that. Sideloading = lowering the security of iOS.

And, I understand that you and others want to lower the security of iOS for the reasons that you’ve stated. Apple’s current stance is that they’d rather not lower the security of iOS.
 
Yes bad people are out there. But that is a horrible way to live limiting yourself and others, making decision around a problem you don’t know if have.
Do you have a lock the door where you live? Why, has anyone broken into your place? If not, then why do you have a lock? Where’s the proof that you have a problem that requires a lock?
 
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Everyone is waiting for what? In the US there is an appeal and December 9 is the date, probably the same in South Korea.

A court decision was made even if you would like to gaslight it out. The market is waiting for Apple to comply while Apple is waiting for the results of their appeal to than comply or not.

Don’t know the details of the situation are in South Korea. The last time I’ve heard that the SKs sent a letter for them to start complying and Apple wrote back that it was already in compliance. I guess there must be some misunderstanding in the part of Apple.

Here is a thing we can agree on. ”Qui sera sera”. We may not agree with decision around regulation and courts … but our agreement or disagreement does not add up or reduce its merits.

Cheers.
 
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Do you have a lock the door where you live? Why, has anyone broken into your place?

Yes I have locks at my door and the house still has glass windows thank You. No one ever broken in my place (1) … yet I know it is possible, including the police (2). Actually once I was saved by fireman that broke into my house without my previous knowledge exactly because it was possible, avoiding more damage. Don’t think my privacy or security was violated in such situation … So I feel safe with such possibility. I understand that may people think otherwise, in particular the case FBI vs Apple regarding police access to a mass murder “digital home iPhone”. My opinion is that some people are indeed being misguided what being safe and privacy actually means.

What it means to me is that ones rights over ones properties and existence has a person or organisation is not violated by no other person or organisation … not that no one can get into my house, or my company building for whatever reason. This is not up for “voting by wallet”.

I would not trade my ability to choose what to use and be fully payed for my properties or services as well as decide to whom to pay for what I use, for the impossibility of the second … neither I will support any sort of policies that may directly or indirectly take that from me. I’m not a kid.

PS: Technically I think people digital security and privacy needs to be address holistically like it is done in the physical space … App Store is not a solution for that … a band aid that creates other security problems.
 
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Why would big apps like that move to side loading only? They won’t do that because they will lose users. Take a look in the android store? Nothing like that has ever happened that I know of. You guys seriously think that is going to happen? Damn, Android must be a lot more secure than iOS then. Because they’ve allowed side loading as far back as I can remember and they are doing fine. Come on. That’s a stretch don’t you think?

Besides, you can already side load on an iPhone. And nothing horrible has happened to you yet, right?
As you said, it is on Android, so people should move to Android if they want to side load.

Adobe CC isn't available on the Mac App Store, despite the fact that it could cause them to lose users to more Mac friendly apps like Pixelmator. Why wouldn't they have it in the App Store? Also, if apps are worried about losing users, then why would any of them move to sideloading?

I know on my Mac, the apps not on the App Store are less likely to offer free updates, have more limited licensing features (can only install on 2 computers, for example), and many require you to give them information like email, address, and CC #. That is really fun when you want to start a new computer from scratch. Digging through emails looking for license keys. Fun!

Then the security.... Here is a link to NordVPN assessment, but you can find something very similar on Norton's site (and others). In short, Android is not as secure according to multiple sources:

 
Yes I have locks at my door and the house still has glass windows thank You. No one ever broken in my place (1) … yet I know it is possible
My point exactly.
“If you take steps to lower the security of a system (removing the locks on your house), then you end up with a less secure system (house) and invite NEW exploits.” People are likely not comfortable decreasing the security of their systems, Apple, not surprisingly, is not comfortable decreasing the security of theirs.

What it means to me is that ones rights over ones properties and existence has a person or organisation is not violated by no other person or organisation … not that no one can get into my house, or my company building for whatever reason. This is not up for “voting by wallet”.

I would not trade my ability to choose what to use and be fully payed for my properties or services as well as decide to whom to pay for what I use, for the impossibility of the second … neither I will support any sort of policies that may directly or indirectly take that from me. I’m not a kid.
Then, what “being safe and privacy” means to YOU is not about security. Because security, as formally defined and referred to by Apple in this case, is the state of being free from danger or a threat, which more closely aligns to “the impossibility of the second”.

And, if what being safe means to you does NOT emphasize security, then it’s understandable why it wouldn’t cause you concern for Apple to decrease the security of iOS.
 
is the state of being free from danger or a threat

I consider any organization or mechanism that is unilaterally able to impose charges for things that does not produce, invest, distribute, deliver and promote … nothing … is a potential security threat. Meaning its dangerous and a threat both to the user and suppliers … worst its silent to the user much like … this is potentially the case of the App Store policies.

The environments where this has been observed within a democratic market are dodgy to say the least … funny enough the argument in favor of such potential were often one of security. Don’t think western countries want that kind of business scheme to become widespread, neither is up for vote by wallet.

I don’t think that the App Store is a security lock the kind you advocate. It’s just a digital store selling software programs that one may trust the service or not. If within my house I could only buy goods delivered to my house using the Amazon app would that be like a security lock? Of course not. The idea that it is lacks in my view the use of common sense. I would say you are not as secure as you think you are in such situation.

Yes, I think it’s a lock but of another kind. Even not intended has the potential to empower dodgy business practices for which is hard and costly to escape from … move house’s? What about the things you have bought? So on and so forth.
 
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A decision was done even if want to gaslight it out. The market is wanting for Apple to comply while Apple is waiting for the results of their appeal to than comply or not.

Don’t know the details of the situation is South Korea. The last time I’ve heard that the SKs sent a letter for start complying and awoke wrote back that it was already in compliance. I guess there must be some misunderstanding in the part of Apple.

Here is a thing we can agree on. ”Qui sera sera”. We may not agree with decision around regulation and courts … but our agreement or disagreement does not add up or reduce its merits.

Cheers.
At least in the US they are all set and probably have to "flip a switch", (I'm being euphemistic) or not, on December 9th. Don't know what is happening in South Korea.
 
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I consider any organization or mechanism that is unilaterally able to impose charges for things that does not produce, invest, distribute, deliver and promote … nothing … is a potential security threat.
And you’d be right, anything can potentially be a security threat. One must do their due diligence and perform an assessment to determine if it’s actually a security threat and also determine the severity of the threat. Once determined, one should always take steps to increase security, not decrease it.

Enabling sideloading doesn’t potentially lower the security of iOS, it does lower the security of iOS. And, I understand why people want to lower the security of iOS. But, I also understand part of the reason why Apple wouldn’t want to lower the security of iOS.

I don’t think that the App Store is a security lock the kind you advocate.
I don’t advocate that the App Store is a security lock. My point is “If you take steps to lower the security of a system, then you end up with a less secure system and invite NEW exploits.” Enabling sideloading lowers the security of the iOS system and exposes millions of non-tech savvy users to new risks.
 
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“If you take steps to lower the security of a system, then you end up with a less secure system and invite NEW exploits.” Enabling sideloading lowers the security of the iOS system and exposes millions of non-tech savvy users to new risks.

Considering that Sideloading is giving the user option to use native apps sourced through others entities but the embedded App Stores … i don’t agree with you conclusion equating it to lowering security. So we disagree.

If you understand the architecture of iOS in particular its implementation of concepts such as Sandboxing, that is stricter if not more advanced than macOS, you understand why it is more secure … yet less flexible.

A short glimpse from Apple: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/sec15bfe098e/web

Sandboxing is say a locked area in the OS where the App executes and access its data at runtime. If it needs resources outside such area it asks the users to unlock it for specific resources. Us up to the OS making sure that the App does not execute beyond what the user or the system granted.

One must do their due diligence and perform an assessment to determine if it’s actually a security threat and also determine the severity of the threat. Once determined, one should always take steps to increase security, not decrease it.

Agreed. In my opinion the main threats do not come by giving people options over their sources for digital goods, retailers or suppliers.

In particular I argue that retailers that do not even have the products being sold on their “shelf”, yet impose their own POS within the realm of third party properties by policy because technically they can are a threat both to users and the digital economy. Such practice inevitably devalues both consumers and suppliers properties in favor of the POS controller properties, direct or indirect … as there are no property boundaries if not the ones established unilateraly by the controller, that in turn changes those boundaries in time as it sees fit. This is not theoretical … it is happening.

The severity of such threat is being discussed by regulators and judicial courts. I believe that such threat in a open ended system such as iOS will just grow.

Now if you than argue that allowing Sideloading is not the only solution for such a threat … I agree. There are some court decisions taken place along that line.

For me, this threat is the only one that matter on this discussion. Not even Sideloading or not Sideloading is much of an issue for me, if not just a solution to avoid such threats amongst other solutions. I guess it will depend on how hard will Apple make finding other solutions.

Make no mistake. This is not just a discussion around Apple practices only, its just the company leading the pack. But is actually about the shape of the future of digital economy. But not only the digital economy but also the physical. Has the digital and computing reaches more physical touch points: cars / transportation, peoples homes, health devices, computers used by companies (entire industries) so on and so forth. Whatever comes, will also regulate Big Tech able to enforce these kinds of practices.

Cheers

PS: Equating loading apps sourced outside of the App Store, aka Sideloading, as of lowering security in one line, removing a lock … your words. In the other line arguing that the App Store is not being used in this context as a security lock makes no sense. One implies the other. But I guess, all comes from the gift of parliament.
 
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Considering that Sideloading is giving the user option to use native apps sourced through others entities but the embedded App Stores … i don’t agree with you conclusion equating it to lowering security. So we disagree.
Your disagreement isn’t with me, though, it’s with the security community. :) The definition of security doesn’t mention anything about “sourcing through others”. It’s just “the state of being free from danger or threat”, so that’s what the security community focuses on.

Agreed. In my opinion the main threats do not come by giving people options over their sources for digital goods, retailers or suppliers.
Again, the definition of security isn’t “the state of being free from MAIN danger or threat”, it’s just “the state of being free from danger or threat”, main, secondary, tertiary, doesn’t matter. That’s not an opinion, that’s the definition.

PS: Equating loading apps sourced outside of the App Store, aka Sideloading, as of lowering security in one line, removing a lock … your words. In the other line arguing that the App Store is not being used in this context as a security lock makes no sense. One implies the other. But I guess, all comes from the gift of parliament.
“If you take steps to lower the security of a system (removing the locks on your house), then you end up with a less secure system (house) and invite NEW exploits.”
This line? The one that doesn’t include App Store or sideloading? OK :) I can understand why you’d want to lower the security of iOS. I can also understand why Apple wouldn’t want to for the reasons they’ve stated that agree with the security community.
 
Your disagreement isn’t with me, though, it’s with the security community.

?? Now we are entering delusions of grandeur territory mr security community spokesman. Enlight us seeking knowledge with a security community white paper concluding that Sideloading is a security hazard. ??

Now interesting bit. Just google, Sideloading security .. how many Google and Apple backed articles and hits? There is indeed a massive Apple compaign on the benefits of non Sideloading able OSs … preparing the path to … maybe macOS also.

I tell you this mate, the moment Apple takes sideloading away of macOS with great regret and some financial loss … I’m out of the ecossystem. Probably my entire company … we keep the mini M1 just you for the iOS dev …

You see, I’ll be not as lineant to Apple as I was when they played against Right to Repair, trying to extortion me out By selling a return iPhone replacement due to a simple thing like a lightning port fix … for over a decade.

I’m ok with not being able to source the apps I need outside of the App Store in the iPhone. But don’t push it.

Will see how this goes. I’ll grab the popcorn.

PS: Yes, people need to use support wheels on bicycles may they should use them …. sure. Now arguing that taking them off is akin to making the device less safe … is a huge jump. It depend on whose riding it … it may even make it safer.
 
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?? Now we are entering insanity territory mr security community spokesman. Enlight us with a security community white paper concluding that Sideloading is a security hazard. You know sideloading is the act of installing software sourced outside the OS official App Store right? … heck some OSs don’t even have one.

Show us that article / white paper.
Of course it's a security risk. Zero question about it.

Apple get to tightly control the apps that run on a device to ensure they don't do anything nefarious.

You sideload then ALL bets are off.

Look at how many times Android is affected by sideloaded apps.

 
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Of course it's a security risk. Zero question about it.

As it is leaving your house to go to work. Driving your car ... walking in a dark alley. Everything is potentially unsafe … you just need to assess it and calculate it.

I’m fairly used to buy my goods from multiple shops around … just today I used what … 10 shops from physical to digital? Actually, the “unnatural” thing in a liberal market is only to be able to buy from one shop. Fundamentally this is what the App Store and Google Play are about. It’s not about security.

In macOS I use the App Store as I use say Adobe and other well known shops. Delete emails that I don’t know whose is from. Never had a problem.

Yes I do spot when I’m being socially engineered … well for the most part at least.

We have a generation of people that is most knowledgeable about tech than ever. That is what will be bring more security.

PS: The security problem is people’s behaviour. They put at risk themselves by adopting risky digital behaviours. The App Store like anything is another source of risk. The biggest threats come from places you don’t expect at all. Education helps. For instance, my credit card on the App Store has a strict plafond that I relax on the fly when and if needed. I do that with any shop that keeps my credit card data.

PS: By the way … https://www.imore.com/airtags-are-being-used-track-and-steal-cars

This is one of the problem when you stop questioning and start following. No hacks, no malware, nothing … yet.
 
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?? Now we are entering delusions of grandeur territory mr security community spokesman. Enlight us seeking knowledge with a security community white paper concluding that Sideloading is a security hazard. ??
You have your opinions and that’s fine. English has a definition for the word security and as long as everyone tasked with managing security’s using that definition, then they’re all on the same page and taking appropriate actions.

PS: Yes, people need to use support wheels on bicycles may they should use them …. sure. Now arguing that taking them off is akin to making the device less safe … is a huge jump. It depend on whose riding it … it may even make it safer.
It DOES make it less safe for those that have not learned how to ride a bicycle. All you need to consider now is a world where most folks don’t know how to ride a bicycle and don’t want to learn, so they buy a trike. Apple’s selling the trike. Now, what happens when you remove a wheel from a trike?
 
As it is leaving your house to go to work. Driving your car ... walking in a dark alley. Everything is potentially unsafe … you just need to assess it and calculate it.

I’m fairly used to buy my goods from multiple shops around … just today I used what … 10 shops from physical to digital? Actually, the “unnatural” thing in a liberal market is only to be able to buy from one shop. Fundamentally this is what the App Store and Google Play are about. It’s not about security.

In macOS I use the App Store as I use say Adobe and other well known shops. Delete emails that I don’t know whose is from. Never had a problem.

Yes I do spot when I’m being socially engineered … well for the most part at least.

We have a generation of people that is most knowledgeable about tech than ever. That is what will be bring more security.

PS: The security problem is people’s behaviour. They put at risk themselves by adopting risky digital behaviours. The App Store like anything is another source of risk. The biggest threats come from places you don’t expect at all. Education helps. For instance, my credit card on the App Store has a strict plafond that I relax on the fly when and if needed. I do that with any shop that keeps my credit card data.

PS: By the way … https://www.imore.com/airtags-are-being-used-track-and-steal-cars

This is one of the problem when you stop questioning and start following. No hacks, no malware, nothing … yet.
No, as in welcoming a stranger into your house.

Many strangers are good people. Some are not.

That's are far better fitting allegory than your nonsense.

Your insistence that sideloading is not a security risk is concerning since any decent security specialist will tell you how wrong you are.
 
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Now, what happens when you remove a wheel from a trike?

You would simply get something similar to macOS in such context … unfortunately probably a less profitable App Store as it would need to compete.

The people that you say that don’t know how to ride bike and made the so called conscious decision to by a trike, funny enough ride bikes all the time. At work, in the couch, at the DEN for entertainment … so on and so forth.

Will see how this pans out. Because as I’ve written the App Store and it’s policies linked to the OS was fundamentally built to be the only place you can get your goods from in our smartphone. Started with Apps, made sense as it hosts and distributed them. But than moved to things that does not host or distribute, not even promotes go figure … and does not take much of an imagination that using the same rational it may start selling you your take aways … who knows you electricity subscriptions… after all it’s an in app purchase isn’t it … all banking in Apple fab tech … sorry platform … it’s a just a matter of policy … all for your security and privacy sake … it’s chaos out there I tell you :) When Apple stops target in purchase tariffs over things that does not promote, host, distribute and does not provide a platform for if not for the development of the App … I may reconsider … the way I see it as it stands it’s a security threat. Futhermore I believe that App Store practices should be regulated because of this.

Have fun.

PS: It seams that you got the impression I was disputing a security definition … have no idea we’re such a perception came from. Neither Sideloading or App Store, yet part of such definition inspite what seams to be your best efforts.
 
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You would simply get something similar to macOS in such context … unfortunately probably a less profitable App Store as it would need to compete.
No, in the terms of the analogy that you started. :) The tricycle, that was made to be on three wheels, would become less stable. Are there folks that could see their way through making it seem as stable as it was previously? Yes, but most wouldn’t be able to effectively use it anymore or use it without hurting themselves. It would still inherently be less stable regardless. There might even be some that would say, “That’s just Apple MAKING it unstable, though. I don’t see how there’s anything about removing a wheel of a tricycle that would make it harder to use! That’s just Apple’s decision!” I like the analogy.

And, I understand there are things that people would find desirable about lowering the security of iOS. That doesn’t change the fact that it’d be lowering the security of iOS, though.
 
The tricycle, that was made to be on three wheels, would become less stable

Of course the assumption was that Apple engineering is better than that. There are technical and practical evidences that is the case. Developers have been able to side load apps since inception. MacOS works pretty great … so on and so forth.

I find it funny that in this exchange you ignored entirely the fact the App Store enforces in app charges for goods not served by controlling app distribution to one in two Americans. This alone should concern you, but you arguing chaos otherwise. That sounds like a guy with an hidden agenda other than the population security.

In lame terms what you are arguing is that the population is safer in an one shop world being ruled by a digital conglomerate than can do this, than multiple shop world. I digress. It may look like it is at the start bad always ends up pretty badly for the population.

Now Sideloading is a technical solution to avoid this. For me in this context this is the only interesting part of Sideloading. There are other solutions for the above avoiding Sideloading though, probably better. I am not really pro or against Sideloading … I guess it depends. But it seams that the anti sideloading fence does not like those either … go figure ;)

The narrative that conflates both these issues (?security threats?) into one are simply Apple doing. Meaning … totally artificial.

Will see how things go. Hopefully Apple is able to avoid Sideloading as per your interests and stop enforcing those kinds of charges.

Cheers.
 
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