To buy or not to buy, with the new Mac Pro's coming soon?

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by m4v3r1ck, Apr 10, 2013.

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To BUY or NOT TO BUY?

Poll closed Apr 30, 2013.
  1. GO!

    6 vote(s)
    14.0%
  2. NO-GO!

    29 vote(s)
    67.4%
  3. MAYBE!, when....

    8 vote(s)
    18.6%
  1. m4v3r1ck, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013

    m4v3r1ck macrumors 68020

    m4v3r1ck

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
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    The Netherlands
    #1
    Hi all,

    This is my first ever "should I" post on MacRumors! On the Dutch http://www.onemorething.nl is news about an upcoming release of the New :apple: MP 2013 this month!

    I now own a very well tweaked MP 3.1, but lacking some serious power for render-jobs for video's! I'm offered this Mac Pro for € 6.199,95 / USD 8.096,43

    Is it a DO ;), DON'T :eek: or IF :confused:

    Thanks for reading and all input is much appreciated! If no time for a reply please vote!
    Cheers.

     
  2. aarond12 macrumors 65816

    aarond12

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Dallas, TX USA
    #2
    Ah, the question of the ages. Should I wait or get the computer now?

    Answer: If this computer suits your needs, then get it. The upgraded computer may be a bit faster, have USB3, etc., but you won't get the new one at that price. :D
     
  3. m4v3r1ck thread starter macrumors 68020

    m4v3r1ck

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    #3
    Thanks, that was super fast! You have a New MP already?... :D
     
  4. Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Location:
    Japan
    #4
    Yeah heh, wouldn't it nice if it were both faster, wider, AND cheaper? Oh wait... this is Apple mac... Oops, not gonna happen. :p
     
  5. steveOooo macrumors 6502a

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    Jun 30, 2008
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    UK
    #5
    Or, wait for the 2013 mp release, then pick up a brand new 5,1 for even cheaper than it is now from the refurb store...
     
  6. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    #6
    Major contributing reason why there is no 6,1 on the market right now. Substantive demand for boxes not any faster than what is out there already.
     
  7. m4v3r1ck thread starter macrumors 68020

    m4v3r1ck

    Joined:
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    #7
    Meaning, that the pro's are all souping-up for the 2010-2012 models instead of the NMP2013?
     
  8. Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
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    Japan
    #8
    I believe he's implying that if Apple released or announced a MP6,1 based on available components (ie "right now") it wouldn't be faster than the 5,1 and therefore there would be no demand for it. This is of course entirely untrue but I believe that's what he meant.
     
  9. m4v3r1ck thread starter macrumors 68020

    m4v3r1ck

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    #9
    Thanks, he got me puzzled! ;)
     
  10. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    Mar 10, 2009
    #10
    Meaning a substantive set of users' workload doesn't outlclass the current stuff so they aren't interest buying anything newer and faster. Cheaper is the primary metric.

    Refurb sales don't really do much for Apple. That is more so stop gapping a loss than anything else. That isn't going to spur new product R&D. Most of that "souping up" is going to be non-Apple expenditures.

    In short, it means there is lower demand for newer, faster boxes. Lower demand leads to lower motivation to make a new one.

    ----------

    No. Folks want cheaper 5,1 boxes. That is exactly what got expressed in what I quoted. Cheaper is what their primarily value criteria. 5,1 is "fast enough".

    LOL. I'm sure you did... only because it is untrue.
     
  11. m4v3r1ck thread starter macrumors 68020

    m4v3r1ck

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    #11
    Thanks so much for some explaining here! I've got a lot of investigations to do, before I toss my MP 3.1 in the corner... :cool:
     
  12. Pval macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Location:
    Holland
    #12
    Once the 6.1's are out the 5.1 should logically drop in price. So whatever you're buying, if you wait it'll be cheaper.

    If you can't wait, checkout bankruptcy auctions like daan-auctions, bva-auctions, inventarisveiling, but also markplaats, tweakers, etc. I bought my 2012 5.1 for 1000 and upgraded to a 3.46GHz Xeon, SSD, etc.

    On the other hand, if you're buying for business purposes, it'll be easier to deduct if it's just one bill, instead of five for the individual parts...

    ----------

    OT. I don't want 'her' to be cheap, nor do I want her to be wide ;)

    It's Price <vs> Performance <vs> Reliability, pick two, you can't have all three.
     
  13. steveOooo macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Location:
    UK
    #13
    Yeah I think I meant, wait for the 6,1 for a even cheaper new (refurb) 5,1 from the store as one upgraded to a hexacore, ssd, ram - you'll get a insane mac for much less (30-40% less)
     
  14. Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Location:
    Japan
    #14
    He puzzles me a lot. Not to pick on him - it's probably my own pea-brain but when he does form clear declaratives it's very often incorrect and when it's convolved logic like this one I don't get his meaning right (case in point). When I try to point out how he comes across to me he just attacks. Oh well, such as it is in the on-line forum world I suppose. <shrug>

    ----------

    :D All true... :)
     
  15. Macsonic macrumors 65816

    Macsonic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Location:
    Earth
    #15
    My concern is if sales of the new Mac Pro does not manifest renewed interest, Apple might decide to discontinue the box. Though hoping things will change for the better. I think Deconstruct60 is right to say price affects buying decisions. I guess users tend to be more price conscious nowadays than looking at specs and new features.
     
  16. Brownmastiff1 macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    #16
    DON'T BUY! Way overpriced you could modify a basic 5,1 for half cost - the ram is a no brainer to upgrade, the video card is underpowered (and base) for your needs, and the processor could be upgraded buy selling the base processors and upgrading to 3.33s at most $1500USD
     
  17. barmann macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Location:
    Germany
    #17
    I'm not an expert by any means, and only run a small business, but for me there is only one reason I haven't upgraded my Macs yet - Lion and Mountain Lion .

    The cost of getting a new Mac is nothing, once the old ones are written off .
    Software upgrades can be a lot, sometimes more than a single box; in my case loosing Snow Leo would cost me about 2000 Euros , and I'm just a single photographer . It's not only about Rosetta, either, though that plays a big part .

    Changes to your workflow, that's the real issue .
    Paying for new Macs, that's no worry .
    When I got a new digital camera back a few years ago, I could choose between an MBP or MP, no charge, just to sweeten the deal .

    Having to switch to new software in some cases, possible issues with compatibility of existing hardware, support and development of TB and USB3 peripherals for Mac being in limbo, that can be very disruptive and costly .

    OS changes in areas like multiple monitor support, addition of online features , even seemingly harmless things like removing 'save as' in basic apps , and all that comes with it, can seriously compromise productivity .
     
  18. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    #18
    Again largely the same class of customers. Those primarily focused on past software and past hardware are pragmatically non-customers. Apple isn't going to sink lots of R&D resource allocation into non-customers.

    It is likely that security updates and bugs fixes for 10.6 are going to stop when 10.9 releases. Apple's old cadence was 10.(n-2) was the stopping point. Now that Apple has moved to update every year schedule probably extended that just to 10.(n-3).

    PPC only software is dead. Dead as a doornail. If you are critically dependent upon dead you have a problem . You can possible triage it by getting a copy of 10.6 server and "boxing" that legacy problem into a virtual machine container. Or can just directly resolve the problem by getting off of the dead codebase.


    Over time, change happens. It has been seven years since the PPC->Intel transition. There has been generous amount of time to adjust to fix this issue.

    That says far more about ridiculous mark ups on camera backs than it does about the Mac Pro. Products with stratospheric mark-ups tend to generate lock the buyers into sunk cost myopia. Apple isn't going to be particularly interested in customers who just heave buckets of money in mark-ups at other vendors.

    More highly risk adverse customers can move to the end of a new product update cycle to deal with the new. Some may choose to go refurb instead. However, if that submarket market increases over time it has the impact of killing off the product. Fewer folks are buying the new product so fewer products will flow into the used/refurb market. At some point growth in that subsegment triggers a death spiral.

    All buyers don't have to buy each new release. But if never buy any of the new releases, over the long term that is product killer if grows too large.
    Skipping 10.7 would not be surprising for some. 10.8 is generally better on several issues that folks didn't like about 10.7. 10.9 will likely be better still. However, if none of them will be "good enough" because they are not more 10.6-like then that is indicative of becoming a non-customer.
     
  19. bsbeamer macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2012
    #19
    Apple does have a 14-day return window for products that starts the day you pickup at the store... in case you do buy and want to maximize your buyers remorse window.
     
  20. m4v3r1ck thread starter macrumors 68020

    m4v3r1ck

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    #20
    Sorry for my late responce here to all your submissions and many thanks to those who took the time to post a reply!!!

    Reading it all I decided to sit back and relax while sitting this ride out untill the new MP arrives, so I'll be able to get myself a good deal in the store or elsewhere for a 5.1 3.33GHz etc!

    I might decide just to buy the most basic 5,1 with only the fastest 12 core CPU, minimum RAM ( I don't like Apple RAM), basic GPU and 1 TB HDD for 'on-the-shelve' or resell!

    All other ingredients I'll be buying from other vendors like:

    - sonnet pro Pci-e 6Gbs expansion card for 2ssd & bootable
    - 2 samsung 840 pro ssd 128GB osx and bootcamp
    - 2 samsung 840 pro ssd 128GB = 256GB in raid-0 for user/programmes & scratch/render disks
    - transcend memory 1633MHz ?GB depending on need icm with GPU & SSD's and costs
    - transfering my EVGA GTX 670 FTW 4GB from my 3,1 and let the original GPU be at its place for bootscreen maintenace!

    What are your final thoughts about this? Thanks for reading and input again much appreciated!

    Cheers
     
  21. teleromeo macrumors 65816

    teleromeo

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  22. m4v3r1ck thread starter macrumors 68020

    m4v3r1ck

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
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    #22
    (...) so I'll be able to get myself a good deal in the store or elsewhere for a 5.1 3.33GHz etc!

    That'll be elsewhere then! Thanks for the link!

    Cheers
     
  23. barmann macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Location:
    Germany
    #23
    I understand some of your reasoning, but I think you are not addressing the majority of issues for professional users .

    You mentioned the switch from PPC to Intel, and that was a huge step; even bigger changes were made in the past - I started on a G3 running OS 8.6 .

    Based on my limited experience, the PPC-Intel move went very smoothly .
    There were very few hardware issues, none of which where costly, at least for me ; it was a bigger headache to move from Tiger to SL !
    I'm also keeping my software up to date , usually with a 6-12 months waiting period after new releases , same with hardware and OS .

    OS 10.7 and 10.8 introduce compatibility issues I haven't seen since to this extent since Apple went to OSX , see above .
    There have been no dramatic changes in technology, or the OS itsself, which require loosing support for anything that worked flawlessly in Snow Leopard, and in most cases had been adjusted for current OS and hardware demands .

    As for MP customers, there are no new markets for it, only existing ones .
    A user always has to adapt, but at the same time a new workstation (and OS) needs to integrate into existing workflows without major hassle, and compatibilty with recent external hardware is mandatory .

    The MP market has lost many semi-pro and 'enthusiast' users to the iMac and MBP, as those became more and more capable; it could be argued that most remaining MP users are non-customers, based on your opinion .
     
  24. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    #24
    That is a difference in the notion in what "professional" means. Professional means adapting to change over time. I'm well aware though that some use the label to cling to a rigid methodology that has been adopted over an extended period of time.


    You mentioned the switch from PPC to Intel, ....
    Based on my limited experience, the PPC-Intel move went very smoothly .
    [/quote]

    There is a distinct difference between transparently and smoothly. May folks confuse those two. Rosetta affords some transparent scaffolding but it did not enable a smooth transition. It doesn't transition/switch anything at all since still running the same old stuff.

    Anyone following that kind of methodology couldn't have had a problem with Rosetta going away with Lion.

    10.5 Leopard Oct 2007
    10.7 Lion July 2011

    That is approximately a 4 year gap. Even if the breath of the software didn't completely transition to fat binaries (or Intel only) for 18 months ( a period longer than that cycle) and then the user took another 18 months ( again a period longer than that cycle ), the total 3 year vendor+user upgrade cycle is still less than the almost 4 year "get your act together" window Apple provisioned. Not being done in almost 4 years is highly indicative of a " kick the can down the road" strategy leveraging Rosetta.

    People who were still deeply dependent upon Rosetta when it was de-supported were NOT trying to solve the problem. The vast majority has decided to permanently depend upon that crutch. That really wasn't professional behavior. That is not following established "best practices" in software maintenance.

    "Save as..." vs implicit versioning support is not really a software/format compatibility issue.




    Not really true. Pragmatically Carbon is at a deadend at 32-bit. Cocoa classes are only straightforward way into modern 64-bit OS X apps. 10.7 and 10.8 made that transition all the more apparent. In short, there was no large change for apps that had been keeping up. For those apps that had been lagging behind, ( despite several years of Apple at WWDC pointing to which APIs were the future and which ones had shifted more to a backwards compatible orientation (i.e., either are or going to deprecated) ) got caught.

    With Apple's "Update every year" OS X cycle I can see some profession folks either skipping or waiting till the "last" update of any one one of those. For example, going to a even (or odd ) schedule.

    10.7 10.9 10.11
    or
    10.8 10.10 10.12

    I don't think Apple or most of the software vendors will have a problem with that. Similar to how many folks will transition to either Adobe x.0 or .x5 updates.

    The other approach is wait 12 months after the OS X update comes up. That typically would be a transition to a 10.x.(>= 5) upgrade.


    If there are no new markets for the Mac Pro then it is dead (or at least zombie status). Mac Pro useres telling Apple they think the market is dead do not bring a new Mac Pro's to the market faster. All that promotes is Apple spending time on what plan they have for transitioning out of the market. Not spending time future developments.


    It isn't if that external hardware is oriented to solving problems Mac Pros don't have. USB 3.0 sure. Apple not including a discrete USB 3.0 ( presuming that go with a Xeon E5 solution ) would be a huge blunder. Thunderbolt though largely solves problems that MBA and perhaps Mac Mini (and lessor extent iMac) have. Solving root cause problems the platform doesn't have is not in any way mandatory. Existing Mac Pros have PCI-e expandability. Existing Mac Pros can output to multiple (even more than just 2 ) monitors at the same time. Thunderbolt is not bring new, significant market exapnding capabilities to the table. It is in the "nice to have" category, but mandatory is an illusion (especially at the current price points which are no more competitive than the currents solutions. )


    The existing "workflows" are in very simllar context. Using "save as" primarily as a versioning mechanism doesn't mean a person can't do version with the new Lion Applications. ( nevermind that this isn't an OS issue but an application level issue. ).


    The MP market has more than just one border.

    [ more affordable, relatively less I/O ] <--> [ MP ] <--> [ less affordable, relatively higher I/O ]

    It is quite myopic to think that there are only transitions between the first two above and not between the second and third. There are actually new users who effectively can come in from the above market because they were prevented form entering the market due to price restrictions. Price is a dominating factor even in "professional" market. The notion the Mac Pro price has no significant impact on the market is disconnected from reality.

    Sure, the market below is much larger than the one "above" the Mac Pro. Mimicing the market below (e.g., Thunderbolt) isn't going to have much traction at all if folks are transitioning between those markets based on price. Nor is it going to have much traction trying to transition those in the above market.

    In short, the Mac Pro should be focused on the same thing the Mini/iMac etc. folks are in terms of getting more users from the "more expensive boxes because now more capable". Focusing solely on the "Mac Pro is only good for Audio/Video pros" is dead end ghetto which doom the product long term. Following that strategy is exactly how the Mac Pro got to the position it is now.


    Not really an opinion. People who don't buy anything are not customers. A customer is someone who is buying something. It is huge stretch to put people how haven't bought anything in 4-7 years as customers. Your business will probably have problems if spend most of the time focused on those kinds of "customers".
     
  25. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    #25
    Not true across the EU markets with respect to refurbs. Refurbs aren't imported. There is nothing blocking "used" Mac Pro sales. You may not find refurbs in your specific country's online Apple store, but that can be for two other primarily reasons. First, the store doesn't sell refurbs (not all online Apple stores do). Second, they are sold out. For countries where the secondary distributors don't normally carry an substantive inventory and/or Apple doesn't do much leasing (or get many returns or abandoned repairs ) the refurb demand is likely too high for them to languish on the website for days (or weeks ) at a time.


    Right now the UK and DE online stores have them. Several other countries don't. (in the ones that don't, the Mac Pro that is not the only missing Mac from the refurb store offerings. That is highly indicative the refurb store just doesn't normally carry as broad a line up as other places. Either do to lack of refurb "production" or just lack of demand. )

    What Apple can't do is collect refurbs from other countries and move them into the EU market. I don't think Apple tries to do that under normal conditions anyway (move refurbs across borders).
     

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