TOMTOM probably going to be better, but....

[Pika]

Erm... aren't I to be the judge at that? I required the navigation software about 6 times in the past two weeks whilst I was in London. It got me there, safe and sound, and therefore fulfilled my expectations.

Same with Google Earth & Apple's Maps.

 

[avaloncourt]

translation: "sorry you haven't been reading macrumors 24/7 for the past 2 months otherwise you would know that these RUMORS are true for this UNRELEASED app"

I'd put value in statements from the President and VP of TomTom. That's all I post, articles with direct quotes from people who actually have something to do with the application. There were never any RUMORS involved. Period. Unlike many who just make crap up I point to sources who have direct quotes.

 

[avaloncourt]

well, in my car i have built in bluetooth so all calls are routed over bluetooth, and audio is via aux out, exactly as the tomtom dock will work

Well, no it isn't. If they make a bluetooth connection from within the application using the accessory framework (just as stated that they'll utilize within the WWDC video) then it doesn't have to hand it off.

calls cannot be run in the background

Are you a developer to know this isn't possible with 3.x?

also, there are many different conflicting articles - all apparently coming from the president etc

I haven't seen any conflict yet in any major media or respectable website quote. Can you tell me what conflict has been stated so far? I've posted a lot of articles here and have yet to see a conflict in the content of the quotes for any of them. The only thing I've ever seen is them specifically not commenting on release dates. People here keep saying the "release date" is late summer. I've never seen "late summer" used officially in anything. He stated this summer in the WWDC video, it's coming soon on the website, and was quoted in one article as later this summer in an article.

and finally, if it were possible to do simultaneous calls and gps, would tomtom not have highlighted this at the WWDC keynote? if it were possible it would be a major feature they would have highlighted

The Bluetooth speakerphone wasn't even mentioned either within the WWDC video but the TomTom VP and several other sources say the cradle has it. While he never used the word simultaneous he did state that use of the cradle can handle hands-free calliing, GPS and music and that statement was made specifically related to the cradle There was nothing more nor less specific than that. A lot of people falsely reported that the cradle would have an FM transmitter and that was squashed within two articles that said it had to be a hard cable connection to the audio port on the dock. The video was only a few minutes long. More information came out later from people who spoke to those two TomTom corporate officers.

As I've written here a couple of times before, my only concern is the quote from the TomTom president last week stating that "hopefully" the dock would be sold by Apple. Why wouldn't it be? Apple stores are filled with dozens of cases. This isn't some odd, unknown item. That tells you right there that nothing is finalized and obviously if it's "hopefully" then there is no stock in the pipeline to get to stores yet. Obviously, there's a delay going on for some reason. I'm not holding my breath for a short term release.

 

[philgilder]

Well, no it isn't. If they make a bluetooth connection from within the application using the accessory framework (just as stated that they'll utilize within the WWDC video) then it doesn't have to hand it off.

how do you know this? the SDK allows devs to connect to bluetooth devices, but if it were a handsfree device, it would still use the standard phone app to handle calls - which kicks you out of any app when a call comes in

Are you a developer to know this isn't possible with 3.x?

no, but you can see whenever a call comes in, in any app, it comes up with the calling screen. if it did not, there is not an on-screen way to answer or reject the call

from this link, Tom Murray (VP for market development) says
There are also logistical issues. For example, because the iPhone doesn't support background processes, any navigation app must shut down during phone calls, making real-time tracking difficult

I haven't seen any conflict yet in any major media or respectable website quote. Can you tell me what conflict has been stated so far? I've posted a lot of articles here and have yet to see a conflict in the content of the quotes for any of them. The only thing I've ever seen is them specifically not commenting on release dates. People here keep saying the "release date" is late summer. I've never seen "late summer" used officially in anything. He stated this summer in the WWDC video, it's coming soon on the website, and was quoted in one article as later this summer in an article.

there are many reports on the internet with conflicting info, such as whether the app will store map data on the device or download it OTA, or whether it will be a subscription bassed app or a one off payment.
but as you said: I'm not going to go back and repost every link I've posted on Macrumors already for nearly two months

The Bluetooth speakerphone wasn't even mentioned either within the WWDC video but the TomTom VP and several other sources say the cradle has it. While he never used the word simultaneous he did state that use of the cradle can handle hands-free calliing, GPS and music and that statement was made specifically related to the cradle. There was nothing more nor less specific than that. A lot of people falsely reported that the cradle would have an FM transmitter and that was squashed within two articles that said it had to be a hard cable connection to the audio port on the dock. The video was only a few minutes long. More information came out later from people who spoke to those two TomTom corporate officers.

so how can you say that "TomTom has stated simultaneous call and navigation.". You've just completely contradicted yourself

 

[vertigo235]

We'll just have to wait and see.

I have NAVIGON and I really like it, I'll still see what TomTom has to offer.

I have a feeling though that TomTom will wait until they have everything inside that they plan to offer, they will release it, and that's what we'll probably get.

Based on what I'm hearing and seeing from NAVIGON, it looks like they plan to constantly be updating their app. They also seem to be pretty open about their plans etc, where TomTom is like a secret government organization.

 

[avaloncourt]

from this link, it says
There are also logistical issues. For example, because the iPhone doesn't support background processes, any navigation app must shut down during phone calls, making real-time tracking difficult

I don't put faith in that quote because that's the article author stating that based on how he has seen the iPhone work with applications. That isn't a quote nor was anything asked of the TomTom VP about it.

there are many reports on the internet with conflicting info, such as whether the app will store map data on the device or download it OTA, or whether it will be a subscription bassed app or a one off payment.
but as you said: I'm not going to go back and repost every link I've posted on Macrumors already for nearly two months

There has never once been any conflicting piece of information from any TomTom officer quoted on how the maps would be stored (OTA or download). As a matter of fact, the TomTom president outright directly stated it's a download and that same article stated they aren't going with a monthly subscription model. Never once was there ever a quote from either one about a monthly subscription model. You're repeating guesses people have made in articles. I said something that came from a quote. Period.

so how can you say that "TomTom has stated simultaneous call and navigation.". You've just completely contradicted yourself

No, I didn't. You made only reference to the few minutes of the WWDC video. I was CLEARLY responding to that. The comments regarding call management came from an article, again, as I stated before. Did you read the last sentence of what you quoted?

 

[philgilder]

I don't put faith in that quote because that's the article author stating that based on how he has seen the iPhone work with applications. That isn't a quote nor was anything asked of the TomTom VP about it.

granted, but the bluetooth handsfree on the tomtom dock must register itself as a handsfree device in order to tell the iphone that it handles calls, so cannot use the SDK accessory API to do this, and so therefore the phone app will run in the foreground

There has never once been any conflicting piece of information from any TomTom officer quoted on how the maps would be stored (OTA or download). As a matter of fact, the TomTom president outright directly stated it's a download and that same article stated they aren't going with a monthly subscription model. Never once was there ever a quote from either one about a monthly subscription model. You're repeating guesses people have made in articles. I said something that came from a quote. Period.

then why are so many people guessing if it has clearly been answered? clearly there is a lot of grey areas to do with functionality

most of these questions cannot really be answered until the tomtom app actually comes out, as vertigo235 said

 

[avaloncourt]

then why are so many people guessing if it has clearly been answered? clearly there is a lot of grey areas to do with functionality

Because people here can't be bothered to read articles which contain direct quotes from the people who are actually in power and making decisions even when the information has been provided here with pull-quotes of important material. Then someone will pull something completely out of their a** which blatantly conflicts with known, quoted information from corporate officers. People here would rather state false information or perpetuate rumors when the truth has been clearly provided.

There are lots of grey areas with regard to the TomTom but significant things have been said about it from the people who run the company. Oh well. Eventually it will be released. I just hope they do decide to include MapShare. That would make it a much more useful piece of software.

 

[m3coolpix]

A lot of people falsely reported that the cradle would have an FM transmitter and that was squashed within two articles that said it had to be a hard cable connection to the audio port on the dock.

This is an interesting little tidbit of information that I think is going to make the TomTom external dock be extremely pricey (speculation I know).

Reason I say that is that because in order to correctly implement Apple's dock signaling, you have to pony up major $$ (I heard $100k or better) to get on board with the NDA approval, as well as receive the software and circuit designs. This is where that 'This accessory is not made to work with iPhone' message comes from if you connect something to the dock that's not signaling properly. I believe this is the 'Works with iPhone' program so that you can use that Apple logo.

Isn't the only other fully implemented audio/line out/charging/control dock vehicle accessory made by Kensington LiquidAUX at ~$70+?

Speculation as well as business practice says that TomTom has to pass this initial 'Works with iPhone' cost onto their customers....

I'll bet that the TomTom software and cradle are going to be the most expensive TBT solution.

 

[avaloncourt]

This is an interesting little tidbit of information that I think is going to make the TomTom external dock be extremely pricey (speculation I know).

Reason I say that is that because in order to correctly implement Apple's dock signaling, you have to pony up major $$ (I heard $100k or better) to get on board with the NDA approval, as well as receive the software and circuit designs. This is where that 'This accessory is not made to work with iPhone' message comes from if you connect something to the dock that's not signaling properly. I believe this is the 'Works with iPhone' program so that you can use that Apple logo.

Isn't the only other fully implemented audio/line out/charging/control dock vehicle accessory made by Kensington LiquidAUX at ~$70+?

Speculation as well as business practice says that TomTom has to pass this initial 'Works with iPhone' cost onto their customers....

I'll bet that the TomTom software and cradle are going to be the most expensive TBT solution.

You managed to mirror in every one of your comments things I've said in the past. Yes, people think that this is going to be a $20-30 dock. That's not even possible. It's a Bluetooth and GPS device with external connections. That is going to run a lot of money. Last week an Australian tech site said "The car kit alone is expected to fetch over $100" (Australian) which puts it in the $80 range US. I had said a while back I assumed it would run about $75. TomTom is going to face issues of economics if they fully price themselves out of the market.

 

[m3coolpix]

You managed to mirror in every one of your comments things I've said in the past.

Haven't really followed everything you've posted (sorry!).

My comments are more from the time I've spent researching the iPod/iPhone's dock connectivity....from the mostly straight forward iPod into the new signaling and circuitry on the iPhone....even to the point of soldering up a few LODs in my spare time for use with headphone amps to be able to use the line out signal, and charge the device, all while not getting the 'This accessory.....iPhone' message.

But, yeah, the TomTom solution (software + hardware) I'm guessing in the $150+ range (if not even more). Also adding to the cost, you gotta factor in the 30% fee for selling the App through the App Store. I don't see how they are going to sell it as a 'package'.

 

[avaloncourt]

Haven't really followed everything you've posted (sorry!).

My comments are more from the time I've spent researching the iPod/iPhone's dock connectivity....from the mostly straight forward iPod into the new signaling and circuitry on the iPhone....even to the point of soldering up a few LODs in my spare time for use with headphone amps to be able to use the line out signal, and charge the device, all while not getting the 'This accessory.....iPhone' message.

But, yeah, the TomTom solution (software + hardware) I'm guessing in the $150+ range (if not even more). Also adding to the cost, you gotta factor in the 30% fee for selling the App through the App Store. I don't see how they are going to sell it as a 'package'.

No reason to be sorry. I was just amused that you managed to compress into one post things I've said across time in probably 10 posts addressing different things. It sounds like we have similar backgrounds. I just got done with my first stage of building an aquarium controller for lighting, pumps, heating and cooling.

I fully agree that I have no idea how they're going to pull off a package. That's going to be a very intimidating cost.

 

[jacobgaul]

i just took a 700 mile round trip with iphone 3gs + navigon + bracketron + dlo car charger, i was a bit worried that it could mess up so i did pack my garmin just incase! i never had to use it once! things did get a bit hairy for about 3-5 mintues in michigan when you constantly go under bridges i would loose gps signal but it only happened in the east bound lane not west which made NO sense.. but other then that it was dead on the entire route, i do hope navigon can make it recongize mistakes a tad bit quicker in the future update because it assumes your going to follow its route and it was taking 10-15secs to realize i missed a turn (traffic was horrible i couldnt get over 5 lanes) but all in all it was good. i appluad the navigon team for getting this app out in a decent time. the reality lane feature was GREAT because if anyone has taken i75 you know it gets crazy at one point and the navigon was dead on with telling me when to turn and etc.

the speed alert did get annoying so i did eventaully shut it off, i normally drive 15-20mph over the speed limit anyways soon as i seen that 70mph speed limit i put it on 90mph cruise and had no problems with cops they only mess with you if your driving crazy.. i was driving right next to one crusing along doing between 85-90 and all he did was wave so i was like well damn thats cool. im very happy with the purchase, i may purchase tomtom when it comes out but so far navigon is a winner in my book! no longer need to take the garmin on trips!!!

 

[avaloncourt]

normally drive 15-20mph over the speed limit anyways soon as i seen that 70mph speed limit i put it on 90mph cruise and had no problems with cops they only mess with you if your driving crazy.

Are the cops stoned where you live? Anywhere I've ever been 90mph will get you a love letter from the state delivered by a man in uniform. Heck, do that in the state next to me and that'll get you a mandatory overnight stay in a fine establishment.

 

[jacobgaul]

i dont live in michigan.. but i know many people who do and they say once u hit that 70mph speed limit sign right at ohio/michigan border they just dont care u can do 90mph with no problems from the cops just dont go in and out of traffic..

 

[ddrueckhammer]

Wow. If you guys are right and TomTom is going to cost $150+ for the dock solution, I don't see them selling that many. You can easily just get a stand alone device for that. IMO, they need to price the software at $75-$100 and the kit at no more than $120 or it isn't worth it. Is there any real advantage to the TomTom cradle if you already have a bluetooth car connection? It seems the Navigon software works fine without an extra GPS chip.

Peronally, I already have bluetooth and an iPod dock integrated into my car but the dock is in the glove compartment so I am planning on using an old Nano for Music and putting a dash or windshield mount on so that I can take calls/use navigation software with my iphone.

If I end up going for the Navigon because it is better or a better value what is the best dashboard or windshield mount out there? I have seen the Kensington dashboard and windshield ones and the Gmaps one... Just as a mount, both of these look like a better design than the TomTom one because you can use your iPhone with a case on it...

 

[ct2k7]

Wow. If you guys are right and TomTom is going to cost $150+ for the dock solution, I don't see them selling that many. You can easily just get a stand alone device for that. IMO, they need to price the software at $75-$100 and the kit at no more than $120 or it isn't worth it. Is there any real advantage to the TomTom cradle if you already have a bluetooth car connection? It seems the Navigon software works fine without an extra GPS chip.

Peronally, I already have bluetooth and an iPod dock integrated into my car but the dock is in the glove compartment so I am planning on using an old Nano for Music and putting a dash or windshield mount on so that I can take calls/use navigation software with my iphone.

If I end up going for the Navigon because it is better or a better value what is the best dashboard or windshield mount out there? I have seen the Kensington dashboard and windshield ones and the Gmaps one...

Those prices make it instantly not worth it in the UK. $362.28 for the newest model, that boasts more features than iPhone version.

AAAHH: TomTom site is offline now... hmm what are they updating iPhone... come here NOW....

 

[ddrueckhammer]

Those prices make it instantly not worth it in the UK. $362.28 for the newest model, that boasts more features than iPhone version.

AAAHH: TomTom site is offline now... hmm what are they updating iPhone... come here NOW....

Well you can get a stand alone unit here for $75 that has more features but a tiny screen.. Still I can see them putting a bit of a premium on the convenience of having it in a phone. Also, as someone pointed out, if you have more than 1 phone and it isn't against the license to install the software on more than 1 then it is a bargain... I won't pay a significant surcharge over the Navigon software though unless it is ALOT better. Thus, I am considering other mounting options...

 

[ct2k7]

Well you can get a stand alone unit here for $75 that has more features but a tiny screen.. Still I can see them putting a bit of a premium on the convenience of having it in a phone. Also, as someone pointed out, if you have more than 1 phone and it isn't against the license to install the software on more than 1 then it is a bargain... I won't pay a significant surcharge over the Navigon software though unless it is ALOT better. Thus, I am considering other mounting options...

That's the thing, I'll be getting a 3G S this August hopefully (wish me luck, certification exam results). I currently have the original iPhone.

The screens aren't that tiny anymore, the one we have is bigger than the iPhone, then again, that's the smallest here.

TomTom can make this work, or fail miserably.

 

[avaloncourt]

Well you can get a stand alone unit here for $75 that has more features but a tiny screen.. Still I can see them putting a bit of a premium on the convenience of having it in a phone.

Exactly. One thing to remember is that they've established a feature set related to the high-end TomTom models. IQRoutes and MapShare are elements of the most expensive models only. IQRoutes is absolutely in the iPhone app. It's mentioned in the WWDC video and was later restated by the company president. MapShare was later stated by the president that he didn't know if it was going to be included in the app. I found that odd. That should be known by now.

So, it seems like TomTom is establishing this as a "premium" application but they certainly haven't said that. It will be a tough market for them to convince people it's better than others already released.

 

[m3coolpix]

Wow. If you guys are right and TomTom is going to cost $150+ for the dock solution, I don't see them selling that many. You can easily just get a stand alone device for that. IMO, they need to price the software at $75-$100 and the kit at no more than $120 or it isn't worth it.

Just to be a bit more clear...

What I'm guessing is that the software from TomTom is going to be similar to Navigon's pricing, US $70-$100 (maybe), and the hardware dock sold separately is another $70-$100 (if not more based on the described functionality). So that's upwards of USD $200 for the TomTom full blown TBT GPS solution.

I'm not game at those numbers. Navigon is already working exceptionally (so far) for me. If they continue to support/update the software as they say, it's a great value and solution, especially in my case, as I've got 3 iPhones on my iTunes/AT$T account....

 

[m3coolpix]

edit to remove double post....

 

[ddrueckhammer]

That's the thing, I'll be getting a 3G S this August hopefully (wish me luck, certification exam results). I currently have the original iPhone.

The screens aren't that tiny anymore, the one we have is bigger than the iPhone, then again, that's the smallest here.

TomTom can make this work, or fail miserably.

I'm not sure what they have in Europe but I went to the store yesterday and looked and the TomTom One was about $80 but had a screen at least 1/3 smaller than an iPhone screen. Now for around $120 you can get Garmin Nuvi with about the same size screen. I hope the TomTom software is below $100 and has the same features as their high end units. If so, it will be a hard choice between that and Navigon's solution.

The dock is another ball of wax altogether. Unless it offers a huge boost in gps signal or is really cheap when bundled with the software, it seems like it will be a ripoff to me. Of course as I said, I already have Bluetooth and an iPod connector built into my car so I would only use it as a mount and charger...

I know it has to be tough for TomTom and Garmin if they enter this market because they don't want to undercut their existing product lines... If I were in their position though I would be very agressive. Because if they aren't, somebody else will be and they will lose a lot of money. We have already seen startups make apps on the AppStore that compete with major publishers because the big guys are appathetic.

 

[ct2k7]

I'm not sure what they have in Europe but I went to the store yesterday and looked and the TomTom One was about $80 but had a screen at least 1/3 smaller than an iPhone screen. Now for around $120 you can get Garmin Nuvi with about the same size screen. I hope the TomTom software is below $100 and has the same features as their high end units. If so, it will be a hard choice between that and Navigon's solution.

The dock is another ball of wax altogether. Unless it offers a huge boost in gps signal or is really cheap when bundled with the software, it seems like it will be a ripoff to me. Of course as I said, I already have Bluetooth and an iPod connector built into my car so I would only use it as a mount and charger...

I know it has to be tough for TomTom and Garmin if they enter this market because they don't want to undercut their existing product lines... If I were in their position though I would be very agressive. Because if they aren't, somebody else will be and they will lose a lot of money. We have already seen startups make apps on the AppStore that compete with major publishers because the big guys are appathetic.

TomTom has already kepts its potential customers waiting without information, and that contributes to PR disaster. I can tell you that each day there is no information, someone buys Navigon, and prolly won't go to TomTom, unless their release is mind-blowing and at a great price which warrants this.

 

[fuzion11]

TomTom's GPS antenna isn't going to make the GPS antenna on the phone better at all. The mount has its own antenna and the GPS antenna in the phone will be bypassed while in the dock. A GPS only uses one antenna at a time.

As for the difference, it woud be significant. The internal GPS antenna of an iPhone is tiny. There are teardown pictures online that show the antenna plane of an iPhone. A GPS patch antenna is significantly larger. TomTom would be using a traditional patch antenna in the dock which would have significant signal retention and stability advantages. I just looked up typical patch sizes and a "medium" antenna is approximately 1" square. That's larger than the the entire antenna plane of the iPhone which contains the GPS and cellular antennas.

To give a real-world example of usability, I have attempted to do Geocaching with my iPhone and it did a terrible job. Any level of tree canopy and the error grew to >300 feet. That is completely unusable for Geocaching purposes as it becomes a needle in the haystack. The only way I could use my phone was to be in an area with a completely unrestricted view of the sky.

Unfortunately, developers have no access to individual signal levels for the internal receiver so no application exists that has a display of every signal channel as you would find in a typical handheld GPS. That's likely to be intentional as Apple probably doesn't want that to be seen.

So what you're saying is the mount won't make the iphone's antenna any better at all because both can't be used at the same time....BUT, when using the mount it will be much more reliable in comparison to just using the naked iphone??