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Top 7 Reasons People Quit Linux
- Thread starter Pika
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Ah yes, I found the single point that explains why Linux always will fail consumers in it's current form:
You can not have a command line as a standard tool for configuration and installation. As a supplement, it's fine. But as the only option, no. Why?
Because it's in essence unintuitive. It's god-awful, in fact. It fails at it's first word, "sudo". When I have to explain to my father of 55 that he has to type "sudo" to be able to change anything in the system, and it's the only way, he'd look at me like I was an idiot for two minutes, then swing the monitor at my head. Having to remember commands, parameters and syntaxes is why Linux will never go beyond being a small, "funny" system.
For every function, there has to be a button clearly labeled. That is the only way non-nerds will be able to use computers. We learn commands and parameters because we think it's fun. People like my father don't.
You can not have a command line as a standard tool for configuration and installation. As a supplement, it's fine. But as the only option, no. Why?
Because it's in essence unintuitive. It's god-awful, in fact. It fails at it's first word, "sudo". When I have to explain to my father of 55 that he has to type "sudo" to be able to change anything in the system, and it's the only way, he'd look at me like I was an idiot for two minutes, then swing the monitor at my head. Having to remember commands, parameters and syntaxes is why Linux will never go beyond being a small, "funny" system.
For every function, there has to be a button clearly labeled. That is the only way non-nerds will be able to use computers. We learn commands and parameters because we think it's fun. People like my father don't.
I completely agree. The author of the article seemed to suggest that everyone in the world should be just as computer savvy as he. That's ridiculous! Hell --I wouldn't consider myself super computer intelligent, but I installed Ubuntu on my Macbook. I had to use the command line just to get basic things running, and guess what. After a single restart things started to break left and right, first my wobbly Windows stopped working, then my multiple desktops died. I did all sorts of little things to get them *sorta* working again. I never intended to have Ubuntu as my main OS, I only had it to tinker with, but things like that are completely unacceptable in a Desktop OS.
when was last time you did a sudo on ubuntu?
why are we describing linux in its old status? They upgrade 2 a year, and they are out of command-line for end users for years.
Not true. To install drivers you'll often need to use the command line, and even then you'll often need a real understanding of what you're doing as online tutorials usually just take you most of the way there, but you have to finish up.
Interesting statement, considering the fact that about a month ago I tried getting all Linux on a couple of computers here (both file server and HTPC) and the command line hell was unbelievable. Also, being a bit of a nerd, having built computers for about seven years, I have not reached the technical level to be able to administrate a Linux-based file server. My Linux-using buddies even agreed to this.
You didn't ask me, Clev...
But the last time I did sudo on Ubuntu was 9.04 Netbook Remix final install -- which had an extensive issue that made it almost unusable on many computers with Intel GMA, and which required a manual fix. (link)
But I think this stuff has gotten better. The number of current / recent systems that require major driver workarounds (e.g. the situation with the EeePC compared to how it was with Ubuntu 7.10 and 8.04) has vastly reduced.
For what I need it for, I didn't experienced necessity of commandline.
Linux does have problem with peripherals, which I never even got the need to try. For a well integrated linux and hardware, it should be a quite pleasant experience.
Yes, If somebody need to do more than average stuff, it will become tougher. But hey, I still can't get my printer work with my MB neither.
I guess I think most people will be fine and will not encounter commandline, with modern versions of linux.
Linux does have problem with peripherals, which I never even got the need to try. For a well integrated linux and hardware, it should be a quite pleasant experience.
Yes, If somebody need to do more than average stuff, it will become tougher. But hey, I still can't get my printer work with my MB neither.
I guess I think most people will be fine and will not encounter commandline, with modern versions of linux.
Oh, it's gotten loads better. GTK is still butt-ugly (which further proves my theory that genuine programmers/developers wouldn't know pretty if it grew tits and gave them a lapdance), but KDE is pretty beautiful. I must say, however, that if I could use Linux on a professional level, I would. But it's not there quite yet.
Let me just point out that I'm no Linux hater, I just don't think it's the right product for the huge masses for normal computer users. I love tinkering with Linux and learning the ways of the OS, I just can't have that when my deadline is approaching and something doesn't work.
Oh and did I mention that a large majority of the Linux community is a clusterf**k of sarcastic-as-hell douchebags. The most arrogant Apple fanboy on MacRumors is several orders of magnitude beneath even the tamest Linux fanboy on the International Scale of Douchiness. Ugh!
So there you have Sehnsucht's $0.02.
I've never had any trouble with anyone being actively nasty on the Linux Forums, just getting someone to answer you. You definitely get the feeling you're beneath their notice. You got people on there posting "Well, I just reinstalled a second kernel on my AMX World Defender laptop using a Zarcon Dekonfabultor script I, heh heh, of course wrote myself. I did misplace a decimal causing a small but not insignificant tear in the time/space continuum; fortunately it was very short lived and didn't instantly end all life as we know it, just caused a few cows in Wisconsin to walk backwards for a few hours! It works great, in fact, if I stick a tin foil antenna out of my mothers basement, where I live, I can actually view pron with so little interference you can almost see their faces!"
I'm pretty sure that guy could have helped me with my Grub Configuration issue if he hadn't been so preoccupied with that tube of hand lotion....
About a week ago, in Ubuntu 8.10 Intrepid Ibex.
By the way, Intrebid Ibex? Hardy Heron?
Who the hell comes up with these names?
Is there a Morose Mongoose in the future? A Petulant Panda?
webcam?
anyway, I think apple bares part of the responsibility in this regard, it offers drivers for windows, it shouldn't be difficult for apple to throw out a linux driver...
you can suggest that name for sure, I dont know how ubuntu decide on the names, but Im sure community input is part of the procedure.
That's just not true and especially not true of all distributions. Any time something goes wrong (and it will, usually when upgrading or installing new software that didn't come with the installation) you have to fix it yourself and that normally means going into the command line. If you don't know what to do, you're typically screwed. I DO know what to do and it's still annoying as heck. These problems simply don't exist in Windows or OS X and it's especially amusing with OS X since it is based on BSD Unix and yet Unix is made to be completely and utterly transparent. The only time I've ever had to use the command shell in OS X is to change parameters Apple left available to alter, but only in the command line (i.e. you're not "supposed" to be playing with them anyway) but unfortunately, Apple has this idea you should always do things the way they want you to, which is not necessarily the way you might want to (e.g. the Safari 4 beta is a good example with its new tab method forced upon you unless you change the option in a shell window parameter).
That is not to say that Linux hasn't made some great strides in the past 12 years since I first used it, but some things should have been available 10 years ago. Take joystick preference panes as an example. 10 years ago there was a GREAT joystick driver someone made and all my half dozen joysticks actually worked in Linux. But to get them working, I had to do some serious shell work editing (and not all of us like VI and there still isn't a shell text editor as intuitive as the old MS-Dos text editor IMO that doesn't require X to run; I use Pico, but its copy/paste functions pretty much SUCK. When a 1990 Amiga text editor like CygnusED (doesn't require Workbench to be loaded to run) and just as old MS-Dos text editor (shift select text and CTRL-C to copy CTRL-V to paste) run circles around the average Linux shell text editor, well what can you say? Learn VI? No thanks. It's awful.) Now finally, in the past couple of years preference panes have finally started showing up in KDE and Gnome. Some aren't even half bad. But it could have happened 10 years ago easy. I DID bring it up back then and I was told to make it myself if I wanted one. Yeah, OK. Why even bring it up to the developer community if you can just write it yourself and keep it to yourself while you're at it.
I've found most Linux people back then had NO INTEREST in making Linux easier to use for the average person (a few did but they had their hands full with early versions of Gnome and KDE and instead of working together they created opposing systems based on a now extinct licensing issue...of course... it's got to be 100% open or else). Like I said before, most LIKE feeling "elitist" in that regard (as in a "Ha ha, I can get around in Linux and you cannot! Ha ha! You must be stupid and I'm not!" sort of thing). Creating an archaic set of hacker tools to run an operating system (admittedly this originally happened in a time where CLIs were the norm) isn't intelligent. It's more like obtuse in this day an age. Ask anyone that was around for MS-Dos if they actually LIKED it better than using WindowsXP and I don't even mean the absurd IRQ and non-standard driver setups, but just the command line as opposed to a GUI. I'd bet over 99% do not. Sure you can do some things much more efficiently if you know how and can remember all the commands to achieve it plus pipelines, etc. in that environment. You can write a shell script to automate things too. But you shouldn't HAVE to (and yeah AmigaDos has half-arsed in this area too, especially in 1.x versions so you had to know a few things or get something like Diskmaster or Directory Opus (one still wonders why neither Windows or OS X provides dual-pane file management options...it's SO much easier than opening two panes and playing hockey shuffle between them).
So until every little command is replaced with an intuitive GUI equivalent (and better yet more eliminated entirely because there are better ways to do many things), you'll still need the shell at some point and if you've never used one before, it can be quite daunting, especially since most Linux programmers don't document their programs for squat or if they do, they hide the docs for it in some arcane directory somewhere (better have locate working and up-to-date...oh wait that's a shell command too). Whereas the odds of EVER having to use a shell/CLI in Windows or OS X are pretty remote for the average user. I've rarely used a dos prompt in Win98 and maybe once or twice ever in XP. I've used a shell in OS X, but just because I wanted to play around in it and with X ports, etc, not because I ever really had to. It's nice that it's there if you WANT to use it; otherwise you can safely forget about it. That's where Linux needs to get to and it needs to stop having 10 different standards to do something simple. People need to agree one some standard ways of doing things on that platform and move on (even if small groups ignore it and do their own thing). Your goal should be to attract commercial software so Windows can be forgotten about entirely. If you don't care about commercial software, great. But most people do. I only keep Windows around to play games and a few utilities not available in OS X. I'd prefer to get rid of it but neither OS X or Linux will replace Windows for gaming any time soon. OS X may eventually replace it entirely for major applications.
One problem with OS X is software prices are often so much higher than Windows programs, especially with things like old games which never seem to come down in price ever. For example, Jedi Academy is STILL $40-60 on the Mac. The game is OLD and IF you can find it on the PC, it's usually under $10 now. The same is true for Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc. So if you have a newer Intel Mac, you're better off getting a copy of Windows XP and buying the PC versions. They come out sooner, get more updates and the difference in price alone will pay for it in a short amount of time. That's sad, but that's the way it is and it's one of OS X's weak points. If Apple would license DirectX from Microsoft, porting games would be so much simpler and easier it would help drive costs down and release times up and without sacrificing so much performance like Cider does. But getting games for Linux? Have fun there.
LMAO...
That's ridiculous, Clevin. There are ridiculous amounts of Linux distros, many with different kernels that don't support different drivers. Apple would have to write like ten different sets of drivers for all the Linux distros. And for what? So they could have driver support for an OS that isn't supported in bootcamp? Yeah, not going to happen, nor does Apple have even the slightest bit of responsibility to do so.
i think we dont have to goto the realm where some level of tech is needed.
for most people.
web
office
image
media
would be all they need. add/remove software in ubuntu is good enough for most of them.
Of course when users' need are specific and need higher level of system manipulation, it might be difficult if they dont have enough experience with linux. But I think most average users would be taken care of with popular distroes such as ubuntu.
I guess one of the not-stated assumption here is that most people here are not normal, average users, because you guys are actually, mostly, install linux yourselves. For normal users, I think they probably got system pre-installed, that way, they probably will encounter even less problem with peripherals.
i.e., I think linux is now taking care of "non tech savy", as well as "very tech savy" people, but the people in between, "somewhat savy", me included, are not being offered a tool currently. They probably need to improve that, but i think their priority is correct.
there are large amount of linux distroes, yes, but I dont think each distroes need a specific driver, I think apple is capable of writing one or two packages to satisfy most of the distroes.
Yes, bootcamp doesn't officially support linux, but that has to be apple's decision.
for most people.
web
office
image
media
would be all they need. add/remove software in ubuntu is good enough for most of them.
Of course when users' need are specific and need higher level of system manipulation, it might be difficult if they dont have enough experience with linux. But I think most average users would be taken care of with popular distroes such as ubuntu.
I guess one of the not-stated assumption here is that most people here are not normal, average users, because you guys are actually, mostly, install linux yourselves. For normal users, I think they probably got system pre-installed, that way, they probably will encounter even less problem with peripherals.
i.e., I think linux is now taking care of "non tech savy", as well as "very tech savy" people, but the people in between, "somewhat savy", me included, are not being offered a tool currently. They probably need to improve that, but i think their priority is correct.
there are large amount of linux distroes, yes, but I dont think each distroes need a specific driver, I think apple is capable of writing one or two packages to satisfy most of the distroes.
Yes, bootcamp doesn't officially support linux, but that has to be apple's decision.
again, this is bull. I needed to use the command line to get my trackpad, iSight, Airport, and video card working and even after getting those things working the bundled virtual desktops stopped working.
Its not linux's responsibility to support every piece of hardwares out there. I mean, even windows doesn't support all the hardwares out there, and it needs drivers from hardware producers. are we really expecting linux to support everything out of box? Why it needs commandline to set up those hardwares? because hardware makers didn't provide anything!
This got to be a two way efforts.
But to the end user it doesn't matter whose responsibility it is! If Linux doesn't work then they'll look elsewhere. How is that so hard for you to understand?
No, I only suggest that linux is doing fine with most end users, some end users are not being taken care of, such as you and some other guys in previous thread. But that should not be taken as a general situation.
To be honest every single piece of hardware I have ever used with Linux has had native support apart from my iPhone but I believe even that works now aswell.
Gone are the days of computers as they were.
Now they are commodities -- tools to get your work done. That is how the average consumer looks at them. These days they are not interested in the geek side of installations. They simply want their tool to work.
Snort.
Definitely an issue with the different distros.
Exactly.
IMHO, of the Linux OS'es that I've tried, I like Ubuntu the best. Regular updates and you can see the improvement over time. Plus it has an interesting name and logo.
Hopefully the community will get behind one or two distributions and push updates accordingly. The current Linux community is too fragmented.
That's part of the reason I forced my computer illiterate mother to buy a mac as her new computer. She was wondering why XP doesn't run as fast as it once did after 6 (!!) years after never re-installing and never running defrag on the system =O
It took her a while to get used to the mac, but at least she only manages to rack up spam mail nowadays and not tons of viruses too using her computer.
On the topic of Linux... to anyone who uses PySLSK on linux... Does anybody know if PySLSK is as good as the original SLSK (new server) for windows? Because I'm not getting nearly as many results on the mac versions (SSX and Solarseek) as I am on my windows machine. Probably an ignorant question, but I've always wondered why that's so, and if PySLSK under Linux would give me the same results as the new windows version.
And has anybody uses this program on the mac? Seen it's available for OS X too.