iPod touch Touch, $20 and SOX

[mtfield]

I think the major point is that anyone who bought an ipod touch bought and IPOD not a pda... they new from the beginning that they were not going to be given these features.. but apple trying to give people what they want decided to make them available so anyone that wanted that pda type device could get it. They bundle is five great apps! I dont think that $20 is an outrageous price for 5 applications that the ipod doesnt normally have because it is an IPOD!

 

[dranktherest]

This is actually untrue. There's a recent brief in EETimes where a company tore down an iPt. While very similar the form factor shrink and memory densities required using some much more state of the art components including even smaller resistors and some IC shrinks. It's not just an iPhone with the phone stuff un-installed. While the software it runs should not require changes to say that an iPt is simply a stripped down iPhone is diminishing the technological feats involved.

For anyone interested and who understands, as an example the iPt uses size 0201 diodes and 01005 resistors, and this is the first time the teardown company has ever seen these components in any product.

Then can you explain this: http://www.techeblog.com/elephant/photo.phtml?post_key=144410&photo_key=3180

Why bother even putting a bluetooth option if the iPod doesn't have bluetooth? Maybe it's because an iPhone does

 

[atszyman]

Then can you explain this: http://www.techeblog.com/elephant/photo.phtml?post_key=144410&photo_key=3180

Why bother even putting a bluetooth option if the iPod doesn't have bluetooth? Maybe it's because an iPhone does

I didn't say that they couldn't run the same software, just that simply referring the iPt as a wholly stripped down iPhone was inaccurate.

My PowerBook G4 doesn't have the same hardware as a MacBookPro, but they run the same OS and the same features are present, some just aren't available due to missing/disabled hardware.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Well .. your case is the first one I heard of. Check other fora or Apple discussions.. plenty of people saying the same I do.

I know you don't get web clips and lyrics without the software, but I did see the changes to the home screen before the software was installed. Maybe it was just the new dock I was seeing. Not sure now.

 

[jmmo20]

I know you don't get web clips and lyrics without the software, but I did see the changes to the home screen before the software was installed. Maybe it was just the new dock I was seeing. Not sure now.

Yes, you do get the iphone dock with the free 1.1.3 but that's about it (great feature update huh! a new .png file... !! for free !!).

Howver, that's about it. No icon rearrangement. Tried, several times, and no wiggling at all

 

[dranktherest]

I didn't say that they couldn't run the same software, just that simply referring the iPt as a wholly stripped down iPhone was inaccurate.

My PowerBook G4 doesn't have the same hardware as a MacBookPro, but they run the same OS and the same features are present, some just aren't available due to missing/disabled hardware.

Ok, I see I missed the subtlety of your argument the first time, but you have to admit that running the same software does not and cannot possibly add to the cost of releasing the new apps for the iPod.

 

[atszyman]

Ok, I see I missed the subtlety of your argument the first time, but you have to admit that running the same software does not and cannot possibly add to the cost of releasing the new apps for the iPod.

No, the hardware is similar enough that identical software should run the same.

Here's a thought. What if they used these apps to fix the SDK and with the 1.1.3 update effectively broke the old apps on the iPhone. Since the iPhone is advertised to have the applications they can't charge you for them since they are features that the iPhone has to have and 1.1.3 is required for the SDK and third party apps.

The iPt on the other-hand never had the apps and was never advertised with them, so there was no requirement to keep them. They can charge for them on that platform since they were not there to begin with to recover some of the development costs associated with porting the apps to 1.1.3 and SDK compatibility.

 

[P-Worm]

So, I don't really understand all of the hoopla, and bantering happening over the $20 upgrade. Is it not true that the programs that jailbreak lets you install already have all of the application that the upgrade offers, and more?
-Ben

You can do that if you're into software piracy. These apps aren't freeware.

P-Worm

 

[hecks]

I think the major point is that anyone who bought an ipod touch bought and IPOD not a pda... they new from the beginning that they were not going to be given these features.. but apple trying to give people what they want decided to make them available so anyone that wanted that pda type device could get it. They bundle is five great apps! I dont think that $20 is an outrageous price for 5 applications that the ipod doesnt normally have because it is an IPOD!

This only makes sense if you're comparing the iPod Touch to previous generations of iPods. Since the release of the iPhone and the Touch, Apple has redefined the whole concept of what an iPod is and how it can be used. Now they've done it again by adding apps and enhancements to existing features like Springboard and Safari, which are unlockable for $20, or come as standard with new purchases.

If the 5 apps had been optional for new customers, then you might have a point. The iPod Touch with the 5 apps would then have been a kind of 'iPod Plus'. As it is, our whole understanding now of what a standard, out-of-the-box iPod is, based on what new customers actually get in the package, includes the 5 apps. Remove them, and it's no longer an iPod Touch as advertised by Apple, but a stripped-down version: 'iPod Lite'.

 

[Mackan]

There are too many "defend Apple to death, no matter what they to" -fans here, bringing up points not really important.

The real fact is that new buyers of iPod touch get the apps for free, and that the early buyers have to pay. This is totally unfair.

It is even more insane, for people in countries where there is no iTunes Store. We don't even have the option to get the applications at all. Other than buying a new iPod touch...

This is rotten. Stop defending Apple.

 

[atszyman]

There are too many "defend Apple to death, no matter what they to" -fans here, bringing up points not really important.

The real fact is that new buyers of iPod touch get the apps for free, and that the early buyers have to pay. This is totally unfair.

Was it fair when Apple started bundling iLife with Macs and the owners of Macs who had current hardware didn't get iLife for free?

New applications available on the iPod Touch hardware. Bundled with new sales but still available to those who have already bought the hardware. It would have been nice to get them for free but Apple does not have to always give away it's software.

 

[Mackan]

Was it fair when Apple started bundling iLife with Macs and the owners of Macs who had current hardware didn't get iLife for free?

New applications available on the iPod Touch hardware. Bundled with new sales but still available to those who have already bought the hardware. It would have been nice to get them for free but Apple does not have to always give away it's software.

The new applications are not available to everyone who already bought an iPod touch. It is only available to people in countries having the iTunes Store.

And we don't always want stuff for free. In the iPod touch case, have a base firmware, which you update to fix bugs and add smaller features. Then they can develop/provide distinct new applications and add them for purchase through iTunes Store, as well as make them purchasable in local Apple Stores/Apple Reseller Stores, where you can get your iPod updated for the $20 fee.

This way, no one gets anything for free. (good for Apple, right, and people can't complain we want everything for free) And everyone is presented with an option to get the applications.

 

[atszyman]

The new applications are not available to everyone who already bought an iPod touch. It is only available to people in countries having the iTunes Store.

I'll give you that, the distribution method needs work, or they just need to get off their butts and make the iTMS open everywhere.

And we don't always want stuff for free. In the iPod touch case, have a base firmware, which you update to fix bugs and add smaller features. Then they can develop/provide distinct new applications and add them for purchase through iTunes Store, as well as make them purchasable in local Apple Stores/Apple Reseller Stores, where you can get your iPod updated for the $20 fee.

That is the situation here, other than the aforementioned distribution problem. 1.1.3 is free, you only pay to activate the apps, and a couple other features, which I'm still unclear as to why they are locked with the apps.

This way, no one gets anything for free. (good for Apple, right, and people can't complain we want everything for free) And everyone is presented with an option to get the applications.

So, I think we're mostly in agreement, that they can charge for the apps and that's not an issue. A few small features of the firmware are oddly tied to unlocking the apps but the bug fixes portion is free, and they need to figure out how to make the update more universally accessible.

So you'd be happy with the $20 apps if the distribution were more accessible?

 

[robanga]

This was a really good post. I organize product launches and revenue recognition plans for products at my company, and indeed its all about accounting correctly.

 

[SimonTheSoundMa]

I think the major point is that anyone who bought an ipod touch bought and IPOD not a pda... they new from the beginning that they were not going to be given these features.. but apple trying to give people what they want decided to make them available so anyone that wanted that pda type device could get it. They bundle is five great apps! I dont think that $20 is an outrageous price for 5 applications that the ipod doesnt normally have because it is an IPOD!

iPod stands for Internet Personal Organisational Database. Steve Jobs has been very open for years about where he wants the iPod to go in terms of development.

PDAs have never taken off, the majority of the consumers do not understand them. Apple are developing their products slowly to function like a PDA, and guess what, people are slowly learning what a PDA is and their uses.

 

[Mackan]

I'll give you that, the distribution method needs work, or they just need to get off their butts and make the iTMS open everywhere.



That is the situation here, other than the aforementioned distribution problem. 1.1.3 is free, you only pay to activate the apps, and a couple other features, which I'm still unclear as to why they are locked with the apps.



So, I think we're mostly in agreement, that they can charge for the apps and that's not an issue. A few small features of the firmware are oddly tied to unlocking the apps but the bug fixes portion is free, and they need to figure out how to make the update more universally accessible.

So you'd be happy with the $20 apps if the distribution were more accessible?

Yes, in the end it would be okay to pay those $20 for the applications, if I could. But there is no iTunes Store in the country I am in. So right now I am quite upset. I plan to call Apple and see what they say about the issue. If they can't provide a solution, there is no choice than to seriously reevaluate buying future Apple products, since they discriminate me as a customer.

 

[Loge]

B) Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002. The "enron thing". As I understand it, based on my readings last year, this act attempted to put some rational constraints on large corporations to protect the users. One of the main points in this is you cannot change the description of what you are selling, without accounting for the change.

This means that if new features come along to, say, the iPod Touch, they must be accounted for, because the iPod Touch was advertised with a FIXED SET of features. It was never advertised as being expandable. Just like the iPod Classic -- new features necessitated new hardware. Remember when the 'n' was enabled for some of the 802.11 computers? Apple was required to charge $5 for that update, because the hardware got new capabilities.

I dispute that the touch was advertised with a fixed set of features. Since the plans for an SDK were announced very soon after the iPod touch was launched, it was made publicly clear that this was an expandable device. Of course that did not mean that any new applications would be free, or that anyone should expect free applications either from Apple or a third party.

I epect the regulatory issue for Apple is that they now want to be whiter than white, given recent history; and by charging for the apps they are also managing expectations about what will happen when the SDK appears.

 

[mainstreetmark]

... and by charging for the apps they are also managing expectations about what will happen when the SDK appears.

I don't think anyone expects 100% of the iphone apps to be free, but I certainly hope there will be some.

Even more, I hope to be able to distribute them somehow OUTSIDE of Apple, as the apps I have in mind have precisely zero public value, but enormous value to a few well paying customers (the app in mind, here, being remote powerplant health monitoring)

In any event, I don't believe the $20 was a 'precedent', as Apple can suddenly start charging whenever they feel like it (iLife).

 

[IJ Reilly]

I epect the regulatory issue for Apple is that they now want to be whiter than white, given recent history; and by charging for the apps they are also managing expectations about what will happen when the SDK appears.

I agree with the first suggestion, but I'm not sure I get the second. The SDK will allow third-party developers to develop and sell (or give away) applications. Apple won't be in a position to tell developers what if anything to charge.

 

[mainstreetmark]

I agree with the first suggestion, but I'm not sure I get the second. The SDK will allow third-party developers to develop and sell (or give away) applications. Apple won't be in a position to tell developers what if anything to charge.

...as is my (great) hope, however, we see new software currently travelling through the iTunes store.

Perhaps, the SDK will include some sort of package maker which uses iTunes as the installer..? Otherwise, all apps sound like they might have to come from Apple, which means some wiseass up there will want a taste of the revenue (if any)

 

[IJ Reilly]

...as is my (great) hope, however, we see new software currently travelling through the iTunes store.

Perhaps, the SDK will include some sort of package maker which uses iTunes as the installer..? Otherwise, all apps sound like they might have to come from Apple, which means some wiseass up there will want a taste of the revenue (if any)

I think this is the model Apple is advertising to developers. Actually all iTunes needs to accomplish is installing the application through a sync.

 

[Loge]

I agree with the first suggestion, but I'm not sure I get the second. The SDK will allow third-party developers to develop and sell (or give away) applications. Apple won't be in a position to tell developers what if anything to charge.

I hope you are right, I certainly expect that those third party developers that want to provide free apps will be able to do so. However we still don't know the details of how this is going to work.

Rather, by managing expectations, I mean that Apple will charge if they feel it is appropriate to do so and from a lot of the reaction on this site, they appear to have their work cut out.

 

[REBELinBLUE]

E) If you're upset please stop comparing the updates to the iPhone and Apple TV updates from yesterday. There are differences - mainly being the iPhone and ATV updates were just that - updates to existing applications/functionality. The apps for the ipod are brand new applications. Its different. You purchase software for your computer and then the manufacturer (typically) offers free updates. (as well as the whole Subscription based concept mentioned in another post).

The thing is, this upgrade includes some updates to the iPod apps. Namely Webclips in safari, lyrics in music and a customisable home screen. If they were included in the free firmware update, since they are not new apps, it would be a different matter.

The thing everyone keeps missing though is that there is one major reason that alot of people are annoyed. Because they can't get the upgrade even if they are willing to pay, because you can only buy it from iTunes store which means only if you live in North America, Western Europe, Japan, New Zealand or Australia. That is incredibly moronic if you ask me.

<edit> OK no it seems someone has mentioned all of this already. I really should read an entire topic before replying. >_<

 

[rascal2u]

In the doom & gloom following the $20.00 upgrade...I'm confident that there will be free sdk apps...itunes has given you all the clues you need

Go to their podcast area...major media distributors are giving the content away for nothing- but with a caveat...it is called advertising

You will have the opportunity to choke your ipt memory with free apps, if you're willing to watch an ad at program start-up...an ad when you save...an ad if you pause for more than a minute while working or playing.

Ads...ads...ads....it's the google model. Get used to it. Download a simple ipt word-processor and be ready for..mmm...STAPLES selling you ink cartridges. Download AIM programs and watch a FACEBOOK ad...on and on and on...

It's the new thing...want something for nothing? Sure...wait 30 seconds while we sell you something. Oh wait...that's called television

________________________________________________________________

"I will not be stamped...indexed..or numbered, My Life Is My Own"

 

[mavis]

This precisely demonstrates my position: Apple was under no obligation to ever add these features to the touch, nor give them away for free if they did. However, giving them away would have been "the right thing" to do and the long term cost of not doing the right thing will far, far out weight the profit they make on upgrade sales.

I totally agree.

I, for one, will never pay Apple for software again - the hardware is good (albeit overpriced) and I detest M$, so I'll be sticking with Apple - but I'll never pay them for software again, EVER. Nickel-and-diming early adopters like they're doing (overlooking completely the fact that these apps should have been on the iPod since day ONE!!) is ridiculous. This new firmware offers nothing truly compelling for those of us (like me) who are running Jailbroken 1.1.2 with all of these apps (and more!) already installed (plus custom icons for every app, wallpaper that is visible on the home screen, and custom docks) ...

Bad move on Apple's part, I think. It's not the $20, it's the principle.