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Toyota sued over keyless ignition system

Y

yg17

macrumors Pentium
Original poster
Aug 1, 2004
15,030
3,009
St. Louis, MO
Saw this on the Today Show and thought it would be a good discussion....

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/keyless-ignition-blamed-for-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-30894.html

One night in February 2009, Mary Rivera parked her Lexus in a ground-floor garage attached to the home in Whitestone and accidentally left the engine running. The next day, family members went home and found Rivera unconscious on the bedroom floor.

Unfortunately, her longtime companion Ernest Codelia Jr. was found dead in bed. An autopsy showed his blood was full of deadly carbon monoxide. "The engine should shut off after a specific period of time of inactivity. It's a problem that's only going to be magnified as more cars end up on the road with keyless start," Rivera's lawyer, Noah Kushlefsky, says.

The Kushlefsky’s case in the lawsuit explains that the keyless ignition system violates federal safety standards because owners can leave the vehicle running even with the key fob in their pocket.
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I personally hope the judge laughs this ambulance chasing lawyer out of the courtroom. If you're too stupid to shut off your car, then it's your own fault. Thoughts?
 
yg17 said:
I personally hope the judge laughs this ambulance chasing lawyer out of the courtroom. If you're too stupid to shut off your car, then it's your own fault. Thoughts?
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while I think the law suit is stupid forgetting to shut off the car can happen.

For example have you ever lock your keys in your car or lock your self out the house?
Ever get someone and figure out that you forgot you wallet?
Ever leave you head lights on and kill your battery?

Something can distract you for that split second where you normally automatically do something and it does not get done.
I would not fault the person for having a slip of the mind. Only thing I will say is I am surprised that the car does not automatically turn off after so long after the key is removed. I do know that the keyless ignition system do noticed if the key is removed from the car while the engine is running.
 
In this case it shouldn't matter whether she was stupid, or whether we personally think the car should shut off after a period of time. Only matters whether Toyota is in compliance with current motor vehicle standards in this regard or not. That's what we have laws and courts for.

That said, perhaps new standards should be considered. One could just as easily blame lawmakers for not acting sooner, or home builders for not anticipating this possibility and including ventilation fans in garages (as some parking decks do).
 
2jaded2care said:
In this case it shouldn't matter whether she was stupid, or whether we personally think the car should shut off after a period of time. Only matters whether Toyota is in compliance with current motor vehicle standards in this regard or not. That's what we have laws and courts for.

That said, perhaps new standards should be considered. One could just as easily blame lawmakers for not acting sooner, or home builders for not anticipating this possibility and including ventilation fans in garages (as some parking decks do).
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home garage should never not need ventilation fans like parking decks would because the garage never should have a car in it running and if it did the car should not run for very long.
Parking decks have cars actively running and driving around looking for a spot to park or leave and they have a larger number of cars so it would need a way to ventilated it out.
 
At risk of sounding like an eco-nut...

"Some air pollution escapes in your tailpipe exhaust, even if your car is running as clean as it should. But harmful emissions also escape from under the hood and along the fuel system, when gasoline evaporates before it's burned. That happens especially when it's hot and sunny, after the car is shut off but the engine and fuel system are still warm, and, to some agree, when you're filling at the pump. " link: http://www.mass.gov/dep/air/community/aircars.htm

Also, that "new car smell" can be toxic (just wikipedia the term). Imagine that getting into your home.

Further, some people have been known to intentionally leave a car engine running in a garage, for unfortunate reasons.

Personally, I've been considering installing a fan or vent in our garage for health and temperature control reasons.
 
SDub90 said:
Do I think Toyota should be sued? No.

Do I think it should cut off after a period of time? Yes.
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Agreed.

What I want to know is what if she did this with a car that still had keys? Would she still be suing Toyota? Even with keyless ignition systems, you should still be thinking to shut off the car.

Technology can improve, but it doesn't mean the stupid will be able to keep up with it......

The main thing I like about the automatic shutoff is that it saves the engine since excessive idling is bad for it.
 
quagmire said:
Agreed.

What I want to know is what if she did this with a car that still had keys? Would she still be suing Toyota? Even with keyless ignition systems, you should still be thinking to shut off the car.

Technology can improve, but it doesn't mean the stupid will be able to keep up with it......

The main thing I like about the automatic shutoff is that it saves the engine since excessive idling is bad for it.
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while true often times people would noticed keys missing because when people get inside a house they either need a key to unlock the door or they are putting their keys in some spot and would noticed if they did not have it. I know when I get home my wallet and car keys both tend set on top of my desk. I tend to notices if I do not have one of them. More often than not that items happens to be my wallet which I left in my car but it does provide another catch point for it.
 
heehee said:
I think she needs a carbon monoxide detector in the house.
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My original point was that you can always find someone else to blame if you try hard enough, i.e. "Wasn't it her fault for not having a working CO detector near the garage?", or "Shouldn't there be regulations requiring those?", etc.

IMO, Toyota should only be liable if they weren't in compliance with regulations regarding the keyless system. If the regulations are deemed insufficient, then fix them.
 
IF Toyota is not mandated to have auto kill switches in the car they are not at fault. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a keyless system shut off after 30 mins of idle operation but if it is not a regulation you can't blame the manufacture. I thought you do need to have the key in to drive. Once you step on the brake the car shuts off.
 
I suppose, for most people, physically switching off the engine with the key is one of those "automatic" things we do without consciously thinking about it.
Think,say, putting on your seatbelt or flushing the toilet.

Now if that ingrained routine changes then it`s not too big a stretch to think that someone might omit something that would usually be done sub consciously.

I hate the whole idea of keyless entry anyway, it`s a bad idea and it will continue to cause problems such as this.
How hard is it to actually push a button or turn a key for crying out loud.

If she had left her keys in the ignition then yes, sure it`s pilot error but I can see how this unfortunate incident could happen fairly easily.
 
MacNut said:
IF Toyota is not mandated to have auto kill switches in the car they are not at fault. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a keyless system shut off after 30 mins of idle operation but if it is not a regulation you can't blame the manufacture. I thought you do need to have the key in to drive. Once you step on the brake the car shuts off.
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No, you don't need the key to drive. Hell, you don't need the key to start it at least for the Challenger.....

Go to 3:10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBSierdJa-A

Fubar1977 said:
I hate the whole idea of keyless entry anyway, it`s a bad idea and it will continue to cause problems such as this.
How hard is it to actually push a button or turn a key for crying out loud.
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Keyless entry doesn't automatically cause the car to start. You still have to push the button to start it or shut it off. All keyless entry is a system where the car detects the keyfob and will allow the car to lock, unlock, start, etc without the fob being touched.
 
I have a keyless ignition in my Acura. If you leave the engine running and walk away with the fob on you, my car beeps quite loudly 5 or 6 times. I'd imagine the Toyota does as well.

Having the engine turn off after a period of inactivity is something that should be built into these systems.
 
So basically her negligence is Toyota's fault? Bottom line is I don't think the car company should be sued but this should begin to set precedent where keyless ignitions should have auto kill switches. This lawyer will likely get something, which is a shame.
 
In these litigious days, this isn't unexpected.

on a side note ... NO KEYS PUSH ... TO START.
 
Fubar1977 said:
I suppose, for most people, physically switching off the engine with the key is one of those "automatic" things we do without consciously thinking about it.
Think,say, putting on your seatbelt or flushing the toilet.

Now if that ingrained routine changes then it`s not too big a stretch to think that someone might omit something that would usually be done sub consciously.

I hate the whole idea of keyless entry anyway, it`s a bad idea and it will continue to cause problems such as this.
How hard is it to actually push a button or turn a key for crying out loud.

If she had left her keys in the ignition then yes, sure it`s pilot error but I can see how this unfortunate incident could happen fairly easily.
Click to expand...

I rented a car a few weeks ago that had a push button start with the keyless fob thingamajig (it was actually a Prius - probably not that dissimilar from the Lexus in question). It was my first time ever driving a car with the push button ignition and not once did I forget to turn the car off before leaving it. Sure, I reached for the steering column a few times to turn the key and take it out, but upon realizing it wasn't there, I knew to hit the button to turn it off.
 
yg17 said:
I rented a car a few weeks ago that had a push button start with the keyless fob thingamajig (it was actually a Prius - probably not that dissimilar from the Lexus in question). It was my first time ever driving a car with the push button ignition and not once did I forget to turn the car off before leaving it. Sure, I reached for the steering column a few times to turn the key and take it out, but upon realizing it wasn't there, I knew to hit the button to turn it off.
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but that does not change the fact that it can happen. Say something distracts you that split second that you normally do that. Well you are not going to go back and check if you turn it off. In your mind you did it automatic.
Noticed how you reach for your keys that was out of habit but I know I have left my keys in the ingition before because I turn off my car and was getting some other stuff put together got of the car went inside. Put my hand in my pocket to put my keys up and low and behold they were not there. Went back outside and got my keys put them up. Mind you I had turn the car off.

Now yes I have left the engine running for few mins because I ran inside a building running late to turn something in. Ran in then went back out put my hand in my pocket for my keys and guess what not there. Got to the car it was still running.

What the key does is it gives you another items to see if you forgot to do it. Remember we do a lot of stuff out of habit. Simple thing can get missed.
Like I said have you ever lock your keys in your car?
 
Rodimus Prime said:
but that does not change the fact that it can happen. Say something distracts you that split second that you normally do that. Well you are not going to go back and check if you turn it off. In your mind you did it automatic.
Noticed how you reach for your keys that was out of habit but I know I have left my keys in the ingition before because I turn off my car and was getting some other stuff put together got of the car went inside. Put my hand in my pocket to put my keys up and low and behold they were not there. Went back outside and got my keys put them up. Mind you I had turn the car off.

Now yes I have left the engine running for few mins because I ran inside a building running late to turn something in. Ran in then went back out put my hand in my pocket for my keys and guess what not there. Got to the car it was still running.

What the key does is it gives you another items to see if you forgot to do it. Remember we do a lot of stuff out of habit. Simple thing can get missed.
Like I said have you ever lock your keys in your car?
Click to expand...

But it's not the manufacture's fault you are were distracted or too lazy to go back to check if you shut off your car.

No, I have not locked my keys in my car before, I've been driving for over 15 years.
 
heehee said:
No, I have not locked my keys in my car before, I've been driving for over 15 years.
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I have. Was packing my car to go back home from college. Accidentally let go of the keys when I put my things in the trunk and closed the trunk. Realized keys were not in my pocket and went, " Oh ****". Thank god for Onstar. :D

But, I would not be suing GM for my idiocy.
 
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