Trends toward modular Mac Pro

[Chancha]

Why do you believe Apple is not capable of pushing the limits so far into super-computing with its engineering team. They have proven many times in the last 5 years what they are capable of designing.

Because lately they have shown time and time again that they make questionable engineering decisions in their products. As simple as the charging port location of a mouse, the method to charge a stylus for a tablet on the go, judgement on the necessity of still relevant I/Os. All these raise legit concern if they can handle a truly modular systems like pictured above, which not only needs delicate balance to not be over-engineered, but also to offer the performance needed just to remain competitive on fronts like VR/AR/ML/AI which Apple openly stressed interest in.

Intel is pushing rapidly towards ceramic-base CPU with fully integrated bus controller onboard. RAM is now also storage. GPU are now also full computers in their own right.

Whatever that's new with Intel is no where near being product-availability, and the Mac Pro needs to solve problems now on top of a few years down. With RAM I don't know what point you are trying to make, yes the same kind of chips go into both RAM and storage nowadays and they are going into the MP for sure, but for a modular system then the question is how they are connected with the core system. GPUs as powerful as they are, are not full computers.... and again the key is how this component(s) is connected to the core system, which was the critical issue with the previous Mac Pro design.

The "absurd" is normal now. There is no limit, why should there be.

Ever since the 2013 Mac Pro, Tim Cook has driven the message of innovation very strongly. American ingenuity. How is he going to push this concept using vanilla technology.

Yes the amount of absurdity with modern Apple has no limits, but I am afraid not on the same wavelength that you described.

 

[AidenShaw]

Why do you believe Apple is not capable of pushing the limits so far into super-computing with its engineering team.

System X.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_X_(computing)

 

[aaronhead14]

Apple never disappoints.

Yes they do. All the time. Lol.

 

[MiJuConcept]

Yes they do. All the time. Lol.

System X.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_X_(computing)

Cluster computing and super-computing architecture are both shrinking in size, we agree on that ! Does anyone recall the submission Apple made to congress when they proposed a technology export ban for any computer with more than 10 processors?

I like my DL980 server. It's a reminder of how far American mid-range technology can be pushed and how affordable it is for the enthusiast / collector. I am rather pleased that congress did not enforce that ban.
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Yes the amount of absurdity with modern Apple has no limits, but I am afraid not on the same wavelength that you described.

I don't think Apple has anything to gain from being pedestrian / vanilla / generic. How do they propose to capture some of the ground lost to machine-learning if they dont embrace scalable architecture? It's not like the CPU and bus technology dont exist.

The new Mac Pro will have the same problem as the Bugatti Veyron. It will cost too much and even at that price the product will cost almost as much to manufacture. To restore the prestige of the flagship model they need something Elon Musk would give a standing ovation to.

 

[Chancha]

I don't think Apple has anything to gain from being pedestrian / vanilla / generic. How do they propose to capture some of the ground lost to machine-learning if they dont embrace scalable architecture? It's not like the CPU and bus technology dont exist.

The new Mac Pro will have the same problem as the Bugatti Veyron. It will cost too much and even at that price the product will cost almost as much to manufacture. To restore the prestige of the flagship model they need something Elon Musk would give a standing ovation to.

I actually shared similar sentiment, like a day or two right after the roundtable, and was pondering about the possibility of some surrealist modular space ship hologram tier design. But reality quickly came upon, and it became obvious that the machine needs to be a solid performer much more than a fortune teller. You have to put into perspective of Apple's position that they put themselves in, by stagnating the workstation line up for 5 years+, pretty much sat and watch the VR/AR/AI/ML waves passing by while they struggle to balance TDP inside that triangle core. When they said "designed into a thermo corner if you will", they didn't just throw out a catchy line, it was literally what happened and they are embarrassed to admit it, but they had to. The biggest problem with the trashcan MP wasn't in the details, but the idea behind: they foolishly thought industry trends wouldn't change in directions where a self-limiting form factor wouldn't become an issue. After all that has happened, I will be shocked if they don't stick to the basics and just make a vanilla box, just for now.

This is not to say a truly modular approach won't be a thing down the line though. In a way, by mandating Thunderbolt across all Macs is already creating modular setups on user's hand, it is just that Apple itself doesn't offer all the parts (if any). I am unsure if Apple are even interested in backpedalling in this case, they already pulled out of AirPort for one, which you can consider to be a wireless module. They were going to pull out of display but they they are going to be back. Some would really like to use iPad Pros as macOS stylus and/or external display, but then that's already semi-possible with 3rd party apps. Same with using iPhones as touch interface. And then we now have AirPods and HomePods which are essentially audio I/O modules. Notice that a lot of these are already pretty useable over wireless, so what's left to be solved are high bandwidth low latency components, the core system if you will, which obviously should be wired. For these parts, Apple seems to think that putting together a disposable machine with much shorter expected life span than we are used to is the way to go, instead of offering space and slots unused by most users. As it stands right now there is no sign that Apple will drift away from this approach, but we will see.

 

[MiJuConcept]

I actually shared similar sentiment, like a day or two right after the roundtable, and was pondering about the possibility of some surrealist modular space ship hologram tier design. But reality quickly came upon, and it became obvious that the machine needs to be a solid performer much more than a fortune teller. You have to put into perspective of Apple's position that they put themselves in, by stagnating the workstation line up for 5 years+, pretty much sat and watch the VR/AR/AI/ML waves passing by while they struggle to balance TDP inside that triangle core. When they said "designed into a thermo corner if you will", they didn't just throw out a catchy line, it was literally what happened and they are embarrassed to admit it, but they had to. The biggest problem with the trashcan MP wasn't in the details, but the idea behind: they foolishly thought industry trends wouldn't change in directions where a self-limiting form factor wouldn't become an issue. After all that has happened, I will be shocked if they don't stick to the basics and just make a vanilla box, just for now.

This is not to say a truly modular approach won't be a thing down the line though. In a way, by mandating Thunderbolt across all Macs is already creating modular setups on user's hand, it is just that Apple itself doesn't offer all the parts (if any). I am unsure if Apple are even interested in backpedalling in this case, they already pulled out of AirPort for one, which you can consider to be a wireless module. They were going to pull out of display but they they are going to be back. Some would really like to use iPad Pros as macOS stylus and/or external display, but then that's already semi-possible with 3rd party apps. Same with using iPhones as touch interface. And then we now have AirPods and HomePods which are essentially audio I/O modules. Notice that a lot of these are already pretty useable over wireless, so what's left to be solved are high bandwidth low latency components, the core system if you will, which obviously should be wired. For these parts, Apple seems to think that putting together a disposable machine with much shorter expected life span than we are used to is the way to go, instead of offering space and slots unused by most users. As it stands right now there is no sign that Apple will drift away from this approach, but we will see.

If history has proven anything, it has shown the ability of Apple workstations to 1/ support many operating systems and 2/ for the servers to cluster well. Moore's Law will continue to trend towards smaller and more efficient clusters of CPU / GPU power and the manufacturers respond by giving us a quasi-choice limited only by funds and electricity.

One person gets the vanilla setup they require and someone else gets to knock together a DEC VAX looking beast to prove once and for all, computing only has 4 basic designs which keep recycling over and over. We are talking about the same thing from different ends of the stick.

I have $5 on a bagel module to represent the new Apple building.

​

 

[ancelrick]

I think how Apple thinks about modular is somewhat different than what many of us thinks about it.

Exactly. for Apple, Modular and Proprietary are NOT mutually exclusive.

 

[sublunar]

I wonder if the modular Mac Pro (and later the Apple Display, perhaps even the Mini) is waiting on an implementation of PCIe 4.0 and Thunderbolt 4. 64GB/sec bandwidth from 4 PCIe 4.0 lanes in a Thunderbolt 4 connection is much less limiting than Thunderbolt 3 would be on high performance GPUs.

 

[MiJuConcept]

Exactly. for Apple, Modular and Proprietary are NOT mutually exclusive.

One of the best kept secrets of all time has been the willingness of Apple to adopt the ideology of Apple customers. Some customers are more active in making lengthy submissions than others.

Apple no longer writes letters of thanks to contributors. If you want Apple to change, you have to be willing to make that happen. I'm afraid that's how they roll. I have never met an Apple employee against collaboration. You dont need any special contact number or an inside contact. You can make your own presentations to Apple by using the feedback option and it goes directly to the round-table for sorting into bugs / missing features / ideas.

Work as a group and create your own "modular mac" based on your own ideology. You will learn a great deal about TDP, pricing and design. Every now and then you will be amazed what groups come up with, when that happens, you will find Apple more than a little curious.

 

[sublunar]

Surely at the moment the existence of Thunderbolt is easily a pointer towards Apple's modularity concept which has been coming for years, especially with external GPU driver support on the cards too. They just need a fast enough version of Thunderbolt and all they have to do is supply a machine that can connect to eGPU which consumers can upgrade as they wish. It then means Apple can get on with creating a basic Pro machine concept which won't get dated by users complaining about out of poor spec GPU.

 

[MiJuConcept]

Surely at the moment the existence of Thunderbolt is easily a pointer towards Apple's modularity concept which has been coming for years, especially with external GPU driver support on the cards too. They just need a fast enough version of Thunderbolt and all they have to do is supply a machine that can connect to eGPU which consumers can upgrade as they wish. It then means Apple can get on with creating a basic Pro machine concept which won't get dated by users complaining about out of poor spec GPU.

Just tell Apple what you want. They can only say no / ignore. Apple will never discard information, time and time again they are willing to mine their archive for ideas.

Create a design group outside Apple. Go to Apple with your drawings or 3D printed model.

We had enormous fun making the IBtosh. It was a Mac Motorola 68020 motherboard perfectly married to a PC case. Then some years later it was a thing, then it wasn't a thing, then it was a Mac Pro.

 

[mattspace]

I wonder if the modular Mac Pro (and later the Apple Display, perhaps even the Mini) is waiting on an implementation of PCIe 4.0 and Thunderbolt 4. 64GB/sec bandwidth from 4 PCIe 4.0 lanes in a Thunderbolt 4 connection is much less limiting than Thunderbolt 3 would be on high performance GPUs.

and yet a PC that costs a quarter as much, and runs the same pro apps, will get (multiple) slots, each with 16 pci 4.0 lanes, so GPUs, the entire 3d / reality simulation ecosystem and high bandwidth I/O will standardise on expecting that.

So why, exactly, is anyone gong to buy Apple's solution?

 

[MiJuConcept]

So why, exactly, is anyone gong to buy Apple's solution?

Every ecosystem has its flora and fauna. Apple is just as relevant to the evolution of the PC as Galápagos Islands are to the varied habitats of Earth.

When are we getting a collaborative desktop? If the Mac will be modular, why cant the operating system be modular?

 

[mattspace]

Every ecosystem has its flora and fauna. Apple is just as relevant to the evolution of the PC as Galápagos Islands are to the varied habitats of Earth.

what, a backwater full of species whose existence is so tenuous that they'll be extinct if their little nooks aren't hardcore protected from outside influences or competitive threats? 😉

 

[MiJuConcept]

what, a backwater full of species whose existence is so tenuous that they'll be extinct if their little nooks aren't hardcore protected from outside influences or competitive threats? 😉

Or a species so robust that it can adapt to the most challenging situation by responding.

 

[Mago]

Thunderbolt is not and never will be meant for Workstations eGPU, reason: TOP GPU by design will try to use as much PCIe bandwidth as possible, 16x PCIe3 with PCIe3, once PCIe4 is available GPU vendors will arrange their PRO gpus to handle twice bandwidth.

TB4 is expected to have a BW equivalent to 8x PCIe barely useful for a GTX1080, not for future PASCAL GV100 or whatever comes then.

Also eGPU cost much more about 400$ more than internal.

Apple I suspect will re-cycle the trascan GPU+DP connector on all NEW Vega/Polaris GPUs setups each with independent cooling to avoid the trashcan illness and keep basic flexibility for future GPU offerings from low 50W TDP to 375W TDP on a single GPU.

 

[chfilm]

It will be modular in the sense like the current trashcan that can be extended with thunderbolt 3 devices, while the ram and maybe the sad will be user replaceable, and external HD’s and gpus will attach through Tb3. Pretty sure about it.

 

[Naimfan]

It will be modular in the sense like the current trashcan that can be extended with thunderbolt 3 devices, while the ram and maybe the sad will be user replaceable, and external HD’s and gpus will attach through Tb3. Pretty sure about it.

Apple can't possibly be that stupid.



Can it?

 

[shab]

Apple can't possibly be that stupid.

Last time they insisted on design, we got the trash can.
And that is the first MP since all Power Macs, that I didn't buy.
Please, please Apple, for mMP, don't put design before functionality! 🙁

 

[MiJuConcept]

Last time they insisted on design, we got the trash can.
And that is the first MP since all Power Macs, that I didn't buy.
Please, please Apple, for mMP, don't put design before functionality! 🙁

2013 Mac Pro had multiple internal innovations and it brought more jobs to the US economy. It packs a lot into a small number of cubic inches.

 

[AidenShaw]

2013 Mac Pro had multiple internal innovations and it brought more jobs to the US economy. It packs a lot into a small number of cubic inches.

But, as a computer workstation, even Apple admits that it was a failure. If "innovations" have no value for the end user, they're just engineers jerking off.

And how many of those "jobs" were furloughed as the sales of the MP6,1 tanked?

 

[mattspace]

2013 Mac Pro had multiple internal innovations and it brought more jobs to the US economy. It packs a lot into a small number of cubic inches.

it packs too much, into too few cubic inches, resulting in a failure-prone, inflexible solution that has obsolesced prematurely.

 

[Glockworkorange]

I think how Apple thinks about modular is somewhat different than what many of us thinks about it. If you see in the second quote Apple already has a modular Mac...



Later in the same interview:

What is the modular Mac now? The mini? The pro? Does modular mean headless Mac?
.
[doublepost=1520220087][/doublepost]

It will be modular in the sense like the current trashcan that can be extended with thunderbolt 3 devices, while the ram and maybe the sad will be user replaceable, and external HD’s and gpus will attach through Tb3. Pretty sure about it.

That would be a bit of a letdown, but maybe you’re right and everyone else is overthinking it.

 

[macuser453787]

2013 Mac Pro had multiple internal innovations and it brought more jobs to the US economy.

Apple could bring more jobs to the US with mMP manufacturing too -- if they would.
[doublepost=1520257838][/doublepost]

a bagel module to represent the new Apple building.

LOL hilarious! 🙂
[doublepost=1520258552][/doublepost]I would be delighted to see (yes, as others have I'm sure said many times before in these forums, probably including me lol) a refreshed version of the cMP, both internally and externally.

Internally, how about 5 PCIe 3.0 x16 slots (or at least 3 x16s, 1 x8 and 1 x4), bootable USB 3.1 10Gbps, TB 3, support for both AMD and NVidia GPUs, integrated M.2 SSD slots, bootable NVMe, etc. etc. Externally, a somewhat tweaked design of the cheese grater case, and maybe make the top handles easier on the hands when lifting the case.

 

[Joe The Dragon]

I wonder if the modular Mac Pro (and later the Apple Display, perhaps even the Mini) is waiting on an implementation of PCIe 4.0 and Thunderbolt 4. 64GB/sec bandwidth from 4 PCIe 4.0 lanes in a Thunderbolt 4 connection is much less limiting than Thunderbolt 3 would be on high performance GPUs.

and you may very well wait for 2020 for cpu's with pci-e 4.0 or 5.0 AMD May skip 4.0 and Intel?
[doublepost=1520266715][/doublepost]

Apple could bring more jobs to the US with mMP manufacturing too -- if they would.
[doublepost=1520257838][/doublepost]

LOL hilarious! 🙂
[doublepost=1520258552][/doublepost]I would be delighted to see (yes, as others have I'm sure said many times before in these forums, probably including me lol) a refreshed version of the cMP, both internally and externally.

Internally, how about 5 PCIe 3.0 x16 slots (or at least 3 x16s, 1 x8 and 1 x4), bootable USB 3.1 10Gbps, TB 3, support for both AMD and NVidia GPUs, integrated M.2 SSD slots, bootable NVMe, etc. etc. Externally, a somewhat tweaked design of the cheese grater case, and maybe make the top handles easier on the hands when lifting the case.

and amd epyc as intel does not have lanes for that.