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Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by kjos8035, Mar 4, 2011.
Got my 17" BTO today. Looked at the hardware...
Trim is supported nao eh?
The SSD Drive supports TRIM now but as far as I know OSX will not support TRIM till Lion
I think they hooked you up with TRIM support for the price you paid for that 512GB SSD.
Is it that inconceivable for Apple to add trim in the special build?
Are the stock Apple SSD's running @ 3gbps or @ 6gbps? I'm assuming 3...
I'd be on the other side of this. I've got two Macs with SSDs in them, neither of which are from Apple, and both state that TRIM is 'no'. I'm assuming this means that the new Apple-branded SSDs are already supported in 10.6.6 custom build.
First, there is no TRIM on the drive. Sure, if the OS could support it, then it would have it. But otherwise, no, it is not using TRIM right now. The stock Apple SSD's are Toshiba MLC drives with ancient controllers. They are worth maybe a 1/3rd what apple sells them for. Your Toshiba drive that you paid too much for is relying on it's own garbage collection. Just hope that you never get it full or close to full, the drive will lock and your $1,000 SSD will be unusable. Anand did an entire article on why this occures on junk drives with junk controllers, like yours.
Secondly, anyone that buys them is throwing money out the window. You could buy a Vertex 2 or C300 that will out perform them every day of the week. NO it will not void your warrenty, HD's are user servicable items.
Third, 10.7 Lion WILL support TRIM natively on any drive that has a controller cabable of suppoting it.
I can test this theory right now by filling it up...
Show me a 500gb vertex 2 for $900.
But this build of osx doesnt..?
So much fail here! Look at the dozens of threads on here for the Toshiba SSDs. They have the updated controllers from the Air. They are middle-ground SSDs - they're not trash. They do support TRIM through the custom 10.6.6 build. I went for the 128GB since it was only around $160 (if you figure a 500GB 7200RPM drive is $70 from NewEgg and the upgrade to SSD 128 from Apple is $90).
I think that what's missing here is that System Profiler shows a drive that supports trim, not that the OS is actually sending trim commands to it. That's just a hardware/command set query it's returning.
Official line is OSX does not and will not support trim until Q3 2011 with Lion.
From what I know previous Apple installed SSD's that will support trim in Lion have not said Trim Support: Yes in the hardware profiler. Why would it start saying that now if nothing has changed?
Christ man, calm down. It's not like he spent your money to buy his computer.
I find it very funny when people use terms like "throwing your money out the window". Some people like the idea that there investment is covered under AppleCare, no questions asked. Oh sure, you could get a third party super-duper-ultra-fantastically-cutting-edge-fast SSD and have it crap out a month in. Then what? You've gotta take it out, re-install your stock drive, re-format it and install the OS if you're using it for something else, and then ship the defective drive back to said wonderful third party supplier. Rinse and repeat when you get your replacement. To some, it's just not worth it.
Some people like having a Mac BECAUSE of this sort of thing. I mean, there's a reason the **** just works. And if it doesn't, you get it fixed free of charge and away you go. Yes, you may have to wait a few days or so to get it all fixed up, but hell you might even get a whole new upgraded laptop if it's deemed cheaper than to fix. Yes, maybe it's not the fastest and maybe not the cheapest, but for people who actually do work on their machines, the comfort of reliability and support are certainly worth the price of paying a little extra on the hardware.
And before you regale us on how easy it is blah blah blah, I know. I've done it. People aren't as stupid as you make us out to be. If you try and use that line, you've missed the point. And besides, I don't think there's been any official word one way or the other from Apple on this issue, so when people start stating "facts" they best cite them. If not, it's all just conjecture.
Well said from one of those people who "threw their money out the window" on a 15" mbp with ssd. Thank-You
Fair question. Whether or not a drive will report that it's capable is a really minor call to the ATA protocol's Data Set Management command. Getting Profiler to pick that up would be minor. As to when? I'd be interested to see a pre- 10.6.6 versus post 10.6.6 changelog, but alas our dear Apple is hardly forthcoming and a lot of what people like me can find out is firmly wrapped in an NDA cocoon.
The filesystem doesn't actually know whether the trim command will be supported or not at a lower level. When the disk subsystem receives the command, it will either act on it or ignore it. Sending down the notifications isn't to be sneezed at depending on how the OS is making file calls but the actual call to the drive is pretty lightweight. Popping the checks for it at the profiler level with the intention of baking support in in a subsequent Rev is certainly not beyond possible. I'd expect that 10.6.7 is definitely a stage setting revision for a Lion upgrade.
Well I am typing this on a macbook air 13" with 256gb SSD and under trim support it says "NO" sooooo I'm going with yes it supports trim.
I ordered the same config (512gb ssd) and I'm excited.
It looks like the people over at Apple Insider are claiming that the Apple bundled SSD's do have Trim support with 10.6.6 Build 10J3210 that comes with the 2011 MBP's.
On that note, my Intel 510 120G still shows as "Trim Support: No"
And yet another argument FOR the $990 512gb SSD upgrade option. YEAH!
I just read that article and I hope Apple updates Snow Leopard to support TRIM for all SSDs.
They've added the trim field in the 10.6.5 update I believe. Almost every ssd that has been sold since 2008 is capable of trim (the first x25-m isn't since Intel refused to support it after they released the second version). I happen to have one of them: the OCZ Vertex with the up to date 1.6 firmware (with trim and gc). Windows 7 users have already reported that this drive does indeed support trim and it works very well in Windows 7. Yet, OS X System Profiler still thinks my drive doesn't support trim (it says "trim: no"). That would be because OS X doesn't support it. The new mbp with Apple ssd seem to be supporting trim because they have "trim: yes" in the patched 10.6.6 build and the 10.7 beta but we don't really know that for sure. The only way with be by running some tests (measure it, fill it, measure it, empty it, measure it again and then compare measurements).
Why would Apple only support their own ssd's? Well, they are the manufacturer, they build everything both hardware and software. They also have a big control over the firmware in both hdd's and ssd's that they source (just like any other OEM has). That would allow them to create an ssd with some firmware and a driver that does trim. They can't do that with the 3rd party ssd's. It's the exact same thing when trim was brand new and it got introduced in Windows 7. You could get trim if you either used the Intel or Windows 7 storage driver and an ssd with trim support. This was the very reason why many didn't install the Nvidia storage driver, it didn't have trim support. It seems Apple has a specific firmware and driver for their own ssd's to make trim work as it should. If you use something else it will load a different driver that doesn't support trim. If that will be the case when Lion or 10.6.7 (or 10.6.8) ships remains to be seen.
I "threw my money out the window" too with the upgraded Apple 512GB SSD drive on my yet-to-be-delivered 15". And if this intriguing news now turns out to be true, we can chalk this one up for the good guys
i would be interested to see full ssd benchmarks (esp the 4k read/writes) for the stock apple/toshiba 128 & 256 & 512 drives.
Here's a high resolution 1.6 Gig screenshot of my 1900x1200 screen showing the profiler, the about mac box and this thread. I'm glad to've chosen the Solid State drive option in this case but on a 17" Macbook Pro, it'd almost make no sense not to since it's only $100 extra for the 128 drive. My build is 10J3210. Looks like I may've made the right choice if this is true.
Kinda sucks that you can't use a third party drive though; I was planning on upgrading to a larger SATA III drive eventually, once the price drops and it's just such an unintuitive and unfriendly practice anyway. I wonder why or even how they did it; wouldn't TRIM have to be a standard to work with multiple drives on Windows? Also, I wonder if it's the drive itself or a BTO configuration...
Using the word "we" generically, it's important that we remember it's still very early in the development stages of TRIM & it's implementation.
A second qualifier, since we have so many haters who have nothing better to do but mindlessly attack. "I'm not declaring one better than the other but the fact is, Windows 7's version of TRIM is much further along on the development curve.
Give _both_ platforms a few more months and TRIM will be mature, and that's the version we will all be better off with.
That is very false information. You can use 3rd party ssd's in a Mac. Actually most people use 3rd party ssd's in their Mac since the original Apple ssd's have far inferior performance and some difficulty with the performance degradation. Those 3rd party ssd's are better in every aspect and much cheaper.
The problem with every ssd is the performance degradation so we need something that helps with that. Both garbage collection (gc or nand launderer) and trim do this perfectly. There is nearly no difference between the two so it really doesn't matter if OS X supports trim or not as long as the drive has garbage collection (and that's what 99% of them do).
Unfortunately there still are idiots out there that think that trim is absolutely necessary and the only way in fighting the performance degradation. This is absolutely completely wrong. Trim is not a silver bullet!!!