Trump Administration Reignites Criticism of Apple's China Dependence

[Pezimak]

You're the one who said I'm misusing the word fascism when I applied to Trump.

You want on topic? Trump is acting like a fascist bully trying to force Apple to move production to the US when his admin is providing no resources to assist with the massive task. He's a blowhard and he's got his underlings picking fights because they want to create scapegoats to distract from the disastrous consequences of the self inflicted wound of tariffs.

And if you're not defending Trump, then why in hell are you clutching your pearls about me correctly calling Trump a fascist? None of your comments to me were on the topic.

That was barely on topic, and why should the American tax payer be forced to pay for the worlds richest company to relocate it’s manufacturing from an actual dictatorship lead regime? Also why do you think Apple is moving production to India and elsewhere out of China? And that was before they were told to.
Their is a very real threat of China invading Taiwan, if that happens it will shock to entire global markets as the vast majority of semiconductor chips are manufactured there, during Covid America woke up to that fact and has been rushing to build fabs elsewhere but they take a long time to build. Trump and the previous administration recognised that, maybe Trump is being more forthwith with it but perhaps he also dislikes the idea of an American giant funding 55 billion US annually into the Chinese regime.
Your rather reckless use of the word fascist is thrown without thought and linked to your seeming hatred to all the supposed things Trump has done. But on this topic he is right IMO, no that is not some blind loyalty to Donald Trump as you think, that is an opinion on this ‘one’ topic.

 

[jon9091]

That was barely on topic, and why should the American tax payer be forced to pay for the worlds richest company to relocate it’s manufacturing from an actual dictatorship lead regime? Also why do you think Apple is moving production to India and elsewhere out of China? And that was before they were told to.
Their is a very real threat of China invading Taiwan, if that happens it will shock to entire global markets as the vast majority of semiconductor chips are manufactured there, during Covid America woke up to that fact and has been rushing to build fabs elsewhere but they take a long time to build. Trump and the previous administration recognised that, maybe Trump is being more forthwith with it but perhaps he also dislikes the idea of an American giant funding 55 billion US annually into the Chinese regime.
Your rather reckless use of the word fascist is thrown without thought and linked to your seeming hatred to all the supposed things Trump has done. But on this topic he is right IMO, no that is not some blind loyalty to Donald Trump as you think, that is an opinion on this ‘one’ topic.

Yeah that’s why Trump wants to kibosh the CHIPS act. He can’t stand any legislation done by any previous President…even though it was bipartisan.

 

[frownface]

That seems simple from a cost perspective. I think it's more the case that Apple simply depends too much on its global parts supply and procurement chain to make any sweeping changes. It's not a matter of whether they want to, it's whether it's actually feasible. Even if they moved their product assembly to the U.S., they would still need to source parts from everywhere else. The global interdependence of today's tech manufacturers on an incredibly diverse supply chain is something that most people don't seem to quite understand.

I used to believe that until they started manufacturing in brazil. Using processors from taiwan & china, screens and memory from korea and japan. So yes, they can ship parts across the pacific to the states the same way they ship those parts across the pacific to brazil.

 

[Supermallet]

That was barely on topic, and why should the American tax payer be forced to pay for the worlds richest company to relocate it’s manufacturing from an actual dictatorship lead regime? Also why do you think Apple is moving production to India and elsewhere out of China? And that was before they were told to.
Their is a very real threat of China invading Taiwan, if that happens it will shock to entire global markets as the vast majority of semiconductor chips are manufactured there, during Covid America woke up to that fact and has been rushing to build fabs elsewhere but they take a long time to build. Trump and the previous administration recognised that, maybe Trump is being more forthwith with it but perhaps he also dislikes the idea of an American giant funding 55 billion US annually into the Chinese regime.
Your rather reckless use of the word fascist is thrown without thought and linked to your seeming hatred to all the supposed things Trump has done. But on this topic he is right IMO, no that is not some blind loyalty to Donald Trump as you think, that is an opinion on this ‘one’ topic.

If Americans want American manufacturing, then we need to invest in American manufacturing. We do not currently have the supply chains, the manufacturing capabilities, nor the engineering expertise required for major electronics companies to move their manufacturing operations to the US. That's a plain and simple fact. If Trump were serious about reviving American manufacturing, we'd be seeing a New Deal-esque package of public works and public investments to kickstart this move back to the US. Instead we've just seen an obscene transfer of wealth from the public to the wealthiest oligarchs in our society, combined with a massive budget increase to Trump's gestapo, ICE. Of course Apple isn't taking Trump seriously, he's a goon trying to shake them down for protection money.

My "rather reckless" use of the word fascist is in fact carefully considered. I'm Jewish and queer and I have seen too many of my family and community members wiped out by fascists, and Trump fits the definition perfectly. He and his ghoulish administration are a direct threat to me, my family, and my community, and I'll thank you to stop using the greatest tragedy my people have suffered since the Babylonian Exile as a shield to cover your obvious attempts to whitewash Trump as anything other than a cold hearted fascist dictator.

 

[bluecoast]

Well, since 1996 and before has been known. Nothing new.

Yep definitely. I happily bought the Kool aid and now I’m having second thoughts.

 

[jchap]

I used to believe that until they started manufacturing in brazil. Using processors from taiwan & china, screens and memory from korea and japan. So yes, they can ship parts across the pacific to the states the same way they ship those parts across the pacific to brazil.

I think you've proved my point. One would think that shipping all those parts from Asia to South America can't be cheaper than shipping and assembling them within Asia. There are likely other reasons why Apple is doing this in Brazil.

I'd seriously like to know how Brazil manufacturing and assembly is working out for Apple, from a cost perspective. The production is primarily for the local Brazilian market, from what I understand. They only produce base model iPhones there, and that's largely to avoid the expensive tariffs.

 

[frownface]

I think you've proved my point. One would think that shipping all those parts from Asia to South America can't be cheaper than shipping and assembling them within Asia. There are likely other reasons why Apple is doing this in Brazil.

I'd seriously like to know how Brazil manufacturing and assembly is working out for Apple, from a cost perspective. The production is primarily for the local Brazilian market, from what I understand. They only produce base model iPhones there, and that's largely to avoid the expensive tariffs.

Apparently they also made 15's in Brazil according to MR, but that article is a year old so itd make sense that they would've moved onto making 16's also.

Apple Begins Assembling iPhone 15 in Brazil

Apple has started assembling the iPhone 15 model in Brazil, shifting in its global manufacturing approach to mitigate high import taxes and diversify...

www.macrumors.com

If apple found it economically viable to manufacture there; for all the logistical costs simply to skirt heavy brazillian tariffs, then that just gives trump all the more reason to do the same in the USA unfortunately.

Apple also argues that they can't find the labour to do the assembly, but i'd like to think that that's a matter of how much they want to pay. If they want to pay minimum wage; then sure they're going to hit a lot of shortages. Pay assembly line workers $40 an hour and they'll have queues of applicants a mile long. There's apparently over 2000 phone repair shops in the usa, according to google maps; so it's not like the country is devoid of people willing to assemble phones.
The question then becomes, how many hours of hand assembling it actually takes to put together a phone. Because that's what you're going to end up paying $40/hr for.

Google says "iPhone takes around 17 hours. This includes the 6-8 hours for "burn-in" (software and component testing). The remaining time involves the numerous steps of assembling the various components, which is a highly automated process. "

Take out the highly automated processes and you might have 4-5 hours of people tightening screw drivers, wiping screens and placing stuff into boxes. Which may add $200 to the cost of manufacture, but apple could eat that per unit and still be profitable per unit.

 

[Mr. Jenkins]

Or you could ask Apple to stop giving the Chinese government 50 billion dollars US every year.. just a thought.

For the sake of discussion, I'll take this as true.

They could do that, but that doesn't get you any closer to the policy goal of them manufacturing in the USA. Not paying China $50 billion USD does nothing to advance that goal. The chance of Apple manufacturing more of their products in the USA will still be at 0%.

 

[jchap]

Apple also argues that they can't find the labour to do the assembly, but i'd like to think that that's a matter of how much they want to pay. If they want to pay minimum wage; then sure they're going to hit a lot of shortages. Pay assembly line workers $40 an hour and they'll have queues of applicants a mile long. There's apparently over 2000 phone repair shops in the usa, according to google maps; so it's not like the country is devoid of people willing to assemble phones.
The question then becomes, how many hours of hand assembling it actually takes to put together a phone. Because that's what you're going to end up paying $40/hr for.

Google says "iPhone takes around 17 hours. This includes the 6-8 hours for "burn-in" (software and component testing). The remaining time involves the numerous steps of assembling the various components, which is a highly automated process. "

Take out the highly automated processes and you might have 4-5 hours of people tightening screw drivers, wiping screens and placing stuff into boxes. Which may add $200 to the cost of manufacture, but apple could eat that per unit and still be profitable per unit.

Lots of interesting theories, but we are still left with the reality that Apple does not manufacture the lion's share of its devices in the U.S., full stop. The incentive for them to do so may simply not be enough.

 

[Pezimak]

For the sake of discussion, I'll take this as true.

They could do that, but that doesn't get you any closer to the policy goal of them manufacturing in the USA. Not paying China $50 billion USD does nothing to advance that goal. The chance of Apple manufacturing more of their products in the USA will still be at 0%.

My point was they could invest that in America instead. Imagine what 50 billion US annually into the American economy would do. That would train hundreds of engineers, build several plants etc. It would take a long time to setup the supply chains though. But, instead Apple chose to do all that in China where they have trained thousands of engineers up, built several plants, invested massively in their own custom manufacturing machines. That cannot be undone now nor will the Chinese’s let it be undone, so if they do invade Taiwan for instance, Apple is finished, and I wonder how many other Western companies will be too?

 

[Pezimak]

If Americans want American manufacturing, then we need to invest in American manufacturing. We do not currently have the supply chains, the manufacturing capabilities, nor the engineering expertise required for major electronics companies to move their manufacturing operations to the US. That's a plain and simple fact. If Trump were serious about reviving American manufacturing, we'd be seeing a New Deal-esque package of public works and public investments to kickstart this move back to the US. Instead we've just seen an obscene transfer of wealth from the public to the wealthiest oligarchs in our society, combined with a massive budget increase to Trump's gestapo, ICE. Of course Apple isn't taking Trump seriously, he's a goon trying to shake them down for protection money.

My "rather reckless" use of the word fascist is in fact carefully considered. I'm Jewish and queer and I have seen too many of my family and community members wiped out by fascists, and Trump fits the definition perfectly. He and his ghoulish administration are a direct threat to me, my family, and my community, and I'll thank you to stop using the greatest tragedy my people have suffered since the Babylonian Exile as a shield to cover your obvious attempts to whitewash Trump as anything other than a cold hearted fascist dictator.

The only part I agree with here is the part off there being no supply chain, you are right, or manufacturing plants. Those are all in China, they spent billions training thousands of engineers there, building plants. But it was always risky doing so in a true dictatorship country.
As for your last point, I suggest we leave it there as your impression of history seems to be quite different to reality including recent events, and no I am not ‘whitewashing Trump’ thank you, that is an utterly baseless accusation and is hyperbolic at best.

 

[Craigwilliam]

I’m not American but I’m sure you’re right.

But think on this - why isn’t the USA equipped to make smartphones?

Isn’t this the consequence of globalisation?

Why train American workers to make things when they can be Amazon drivers to deliver the things that western industrialised economies used to make, but not cheaply enough to satisfy Wall Street.

By 1945 there were very few things that the USA couldn’t make domestically. I struggle to think of anything that the USA couldn’t make. Now it seemingly cannot make the single most important consumer electronics.

I’m not having a go at the USA btw. I’m having a go at globalisation & its baleful consequences (whilst being very mindful tuft I’ve benefited from all of this).

No, I don't think it's anything to do with globalization; that strikes me as a conservative talking point. The reality is that it's largely due to Shenzhen, and to a certain extent, also because of communism.

It's practically a purpose-built city where you can create a product, with everything you need nearby, including all the necessary employees and expertise to make it happen. They can be very flexible. People have this idea that in order to create something, all you need is a big idea and tenacity, but I keep coming back to how the iPod was developed.

They didn't so much as invent the iPod as they kept their eyes on the market and waited for the right parts to be available to make their vision a reality. In the case of the iPod, it's because Toshiba had just developed these tiny hard drives, but they didn't know how to sell them until Jon Rubinstein came along and thought, "This will be perfect for our portable MP3 player."

Globalization was always an inevitability, but where China invested in its infrastructure, American companies moved their labour overseas in pursuit of high profit margins. I believe a similar thing happened in the UK, where they became more interested in trading money than investing in their local brands, which is how all the car companies are now foreign-owned.

 

[Supermallet]

As for your last point, I suggest we leave it there as your impression of history seems to be quite different to reality including recent events, and no I am not ‘whitewashing Trump’ thank you, that is an utterly baseless accusation and is hyperbolic at best.

You’re the one who went out the way to say that Trump is not a fascist, which is in fact at odds with reality. If you carry water for fascists, you’re going to get called out on it.

 

[Pezimak]

You’re the one who went out the way to say that Trump is not a fascist, which is in fact at odds with reality. If you carry water for fascists, you’re going to get called out on it.

You are confusing criticism against words you are using with ‘carrying water for fascists’. I carry no Water for trump or fascists, far from it in fact and that is a just another baseless insult from you. But in this instance he is NOT a fascist, Personally I do not think he is, I recall history differently in that regard. I also live in the UK and am British, you want to see a government and a system seemingly against Jews you should come here. If all you have is calling anyone who questions your judgement as fascist sympathisers then I think we are done here. Have a good day.

 

[avz]

How do people not understand that bringing iPhone production to the U.S. will COST them lots of money?

Because people in U.S. understand that the money is merely an information about the exchange of goods and services. So you can't possibly "run out of money/information about the exchange of goods and services".

So the "debt " is merely an extension of the slavery concept(...and you will rule over others and they will not rule over you...) which people in U.S. kind of hope does not apply to them personally.

 

[bluecoast]

No, I don't think it's anything to do with globalization; that strikes me as a conservative talking point. The reality is that it's largely due to Shenzhen, and to a certain extent, also because of communism.

It's practically a purpose-built city where you can create a product, with everything you need nearby, including all the necessary employees and expertise to make it happen. They can be very flexible. People have this idea that in order to create something, all you need is a big idea and tenacity, but I keep coming back to how the iPod was developed.

They didn't so much as invent the iPod as they kept their eyes on the market and waited for the right parts to be available to make their vision a reality. In the case of the iPod, it's because Toshiba had just developed these tiny hard drives, but they didn't know how to sell them until Jon Rubinstein came along and thought, "This will be perfect for our portable MP3 player."

Globalization was always an inevitability, but where China invested in its infrastructure, American companies moved their labour overseas in pursuit of high profit margins. I believe a similar thing happened in the UK, where they became more interested in trading money than investing in their local brands, which is how all the car companies are now foreign-owned.

Thanks for that. I think though that there’s nothing that china does that we couldn’t do in the west if we wanted too. It’s just not as profitable to do so - so we don’t.

History will let us know whether that was smart or not. Of course by then it might be too late.

In the uk - where I’m from - yeah it’s complicated & we lost a lot of our manufacturing base as you say, due to various factors (which will take this reply hugely off topic if I go into them!)

 

[picpicmac]

Their is a very real threat of China invading Taiwan

Douglas MacArthur would like his talking point back.

he also dislikes the idea of an American giant funding 55 billion US annually into the Chinese regime

The same Trump who hawks products with his own brands, products made in China. That guy?

Oh, btw, of that "55 billion", you do know that Apple's primary contractors are Taiwan-based corporations, don't you?

 

[skitidetdu]

If Apple are truly committed to net 0 carbon emissions a move like this will take years

This has nothing to do with 0 carbon emission - only the administration to brag about

 

[skitidetdu]

This has nothing to do with 0 carbon emission - it is only fir the administration trying to find something to brag about

 

[ijordano]

This has nothing to do with 0 carbon emission - only the administration to brag about

Im not sure what your point was here but mine was that even if the manufacturing infrastructure existed for apple to move production to the USA overnight, Apple still have a target of net 0 and that will require time to plan for when considering manufacturing in the US

 

[frownface]

Lots of interesting theories, but we are still left with the reality that Apple does not manufacture the lion's share of its devices in the U.S., full stop. The incentive for them to do so may simply not be enough.

Yep, we're just reading between the lines.

The fact remains, they don't do it; it's not impossible, but it's likely uneconomical.
The currently proposed tarrifs aren't a big enough stick to do it. But trump is whimsical and stubborn; catch him on a bad day and he'll escallate those tariffs so sky high that apple wont have a choice. Right now they're just stalling and hoping trump has short memory or flip flops and the 4 year clock bleeds out.