Trying to boot a Blue and White

[theMarble]

Hi everyone, I got a Rev 1 G3 Blue and White (350MHz) that doesn't have a hard drive in it.

Long story short, since I don't have any working spare IDE drives laying around I connected a 128GB SSD through a SATA to IDE and Molex adapter. Unfortunately I cannot get it to boot a known working CD of Tiger. I've tried the internal DVD drive and an external FireWire DVD drive to no luck. I hit the C key on boot yet I all is the blinking question mark.

Is there something I'm missing or is the computer dead?

 

[Amethyst1]

Are the SSD and DVD drive connected to the same IDE bus or separate buses? Are they jumpered correctly?
Can you boot from the DVD drive if the SSD is not connected? Does the Tiger CD show up in the [Alt/Option] menu?

 

[theMarble]

Are the SSD and DVD drive connected to the same IDE bus or separate buses? Are they jumpered correctly?
Can you boot from the DVD drive if the SSD is not connected? Does the Tiger CD show up in the [Alt/Option] menu?

The SSD and DVD drive are connected to different IDE ports on the logic board. I don't know if the SATA to IDE adapter needs a jumpers, it is detected in OpenFirmware.

There is no Option boot picker on a Rev 1 G3, and whether I've got the SSD plugged in or not doesn't make a difference. Just a blinking question mark.

I don't have much hope in this actually working (since it didn't like my external FW DVD drive) but I'm going to boot my G5 up into TDM and see whether the G3 detects it when I hit C. Otherwise, I'll have to find a different optical drive.

 

[theMarble]

Nope, even my G5 (which detected the Tiger Install Disc instantly in it's Option menu) in Target Disk Mode didn't work on my G3.

 

[Dronecatcher]

The SSD and DVD drive are connected to different IDE ports on the logic board. I don't know if the SATA to IDE adapter needs a jumpers, it is detected in OpenFirmware.

There is no Option boot picker on a Rev 1 G3, and whether I've got the SSD plugged in or not doesn't make a difference. Just a blinking question mark.

I don't have much hope in this actually working (since it didn't like my external FW DVD drive) but I'm going to boot my G5 up into TDM and see whether the G3 detects it when I hit C. Otherwise, I'll have to find a different optical drive.

I had so many problems with the same model - had to use Open Firmware to boot from optical...

#41

 

[theMarble]

Update: I've sadly decided that I'm going to return the G3 to it's seller, since it didn't have a hard drive when I bought it, they most likely didn't know about the IDE controller debacle (I've been reading about it), nor could they test whether it booted into Mac OS or not.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Hi everyone, I got a Rev 1 G3 Blue and White (350MHz) that doesn't have a hard drive in it.

Long story short, since I don't have any working spare IDE drives laying around I connected a 128GB SSD through a SATA to IDE and Molex adapter. Unfortunately I cannot get it to boot a known working CD of Tiger. I've tried the internal DVD drive and an external FireWire DVD drive to no luck. I hit the C key on boot yet I all is the blinking question mark.

Is there something I'm missing or is the computer dead?

The SSD and DVD drive are connected to different IDE ports on the logic board. I don't know if the SATA to IDE adapter needs a jumpers, it is detected in OpenFirmware.

There is no Option boot picker on a Rev 1 G3, and whether I've got the SSD plugged in or not doesn't make a difference. Just a blinking question mark.

I don't have much hope in this actually working (since it didn't like my external FW DVD drive) but I'm going to boot my G5 up into TDM and see whether the G3 detects it when I hit C. Otherwise, I'll have to find a different optical drive.

a couple things, the G3 blue and white has a boot picker, you just need to know how to invoke it, you do so from an OF prompt by typing multi-boot

(this works on other New world MPC106 based macs as well)

a G3 Blue and white cannot however boot from Firewire

you can only boot from either the Heathrow ATA controller, the CMD646 Ultra ATA controller, or any PCI add-in card that has a suitable fcode ROM (and you can also netboot a G3 blue and white, but it uses an older protocol to Uninorth machines)


a G3 blue and white will boot just fine from an optical drive, if your G5 can see your Tiger install disk then your G3 blue and white should be as well

so I would swap out the optical drive for a known working one, (and double check you actually have a DVD drive esp being a Rev A it could be a CD-ROM drive!)

you could also use your G5 to install tiger onto a drive of your choice and then just plop it into the G3 blue and white (thats what I do with mine, just take a CF card fire one of my pre-made setup OS images at it, and away I go )

 

[eyoungren]

One other suggestion as @LightBulbFun touched on PCI cards. Do you have a spare PCI-SATA card? You could try that and attach your SATA SSD to that.

My own G3 does use it's internal IDE drive for boot and the OS, but I have a SATA-RAID enclosure attached via a PCI-SATA card.

 

[MysticCow]

Those rev 1 Blue and Whites have a few known issues. While I can’t remember (can’t remember KNOWN issues LOL), it could be one of those.

 

[theMarble]

One other suggestion as @LightBulbFun touched on PCI cards. Do you have a spare PCI-SATA card? You could try that and attach your SATA SSD to that.

My own G3 does use it's internal IDE drive for boot and the OS, but I have a SATA-RAID enclosure attached via a PCI-SATA card.

I don’t have a PCI SATA card right now but I can get one. Are there specific ones to look for? Should it be flashed for Mac support or can they operate without flashing?

 

[eyoungren]

I don’t have a PCI SATA card right now but I can get one. Are there specific ones to look for? Should it be flashed for Mac support or can they operate without flashing?

You're looking for a Mac PCI-SATA card, specifically one for G3/G4/G5. The holy grail is a Sonnet Tempo, but those are hard to find and expensive.

eBay generally has the type of PCI-SATA cards you're looking for. I linked to three yesterday: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...projects.2356154/?post=31385544#post-31385544

Alternatively you can buy a cheap PCI-SATA card and flash it. You are looking for cards that have the SIL-3112 chip. Those tend to run around $10-20 on eBay. There's a thread here on that: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/guide-to-flashing-pc-sil3112-sata-cards-for-mac.1690231/

I suspect the vendors I linked to on eBay are turning flashed cards if that matters to you at all.

EDIT: For reference, I have a Sonnet Tempo in my G3 and a SIIG in my G4.



I've also used an Adaptec in the past.

 

[DearthnVader]

I don’t have a PCI SATA card right now but I can get one. Are there specific ones to look for? Should it be flashed for Mac support or can they operate without flashing?

There are some caveats about flashed PC SiL3112 cards mostly to do with OS 9 booting and usability. If you want the card to work with OS 9 you need a large enough EEPROM to how the FirmTek FCODE ROM, but it must be a specific brand of EEPROM.

If you only want OS X support then any old PC Sil3112 should work flashed with the wiebetech firmware.

You're looking for a Mac PCI-SATA card, specifically one for G3/G4/G5. The holy grail is a Sonnet Tempo, but those are hard to find and expensive.

eBay generally has the type of PCI-SATA cards you're looking for. I linked to three yesterday: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...projects.2356154/?post=31385544#post-31385544

I've bought from this eBay seller before, the 2 port Sil3112. It didn't work in any Mac in my collection!

The issue is the modified Voltage IC they use, I replaced it with the original IC from a dead SiL3112 I already had and it works just fine in all my Macs except my QS's.

If you need QuickSilver support the Sonnet or FirmTek cards are the way to go, they have a proper voltage IC.

The upside of buying one from this eBay seller is the EEPROM used is compatible with the full FirmTek FCode ROM and it is easier to replace the Voltage IC than the EEPROM.

 

[Slix]

I've had a lot of issues with early PowerPCs that can run Mac OS X not booting initially because of the firmware not being updated. Try booting to a Mac OS 9.1 disc first and see if you can install that, and then update the firmware to this firmware and then, try the Tiger installer CD. https://support.apple.com/kb/dl1251?locale=en_US

 

[theMarble]

I've had a lot of issues with early PowerPCs that can run Mac OS X not booting initially because of the firmware not being updated. Try booting to a Mac OS 9.1 disc first and see if you can install that, and then update the firmware to this firmware and then, try the Tiger installer CD. https://support.apple.com/kb/dl1251?locale=en_US

Thanks for the advice, in the end I got Tiger installed by putting the G3's SSD into my G5 and installing it from there. Since performance (even with an SSD) is abysmal on Tiger due to the Rage 128, I'll probably end up putting OS 9 and some older version of X on it instead so I'll use that firmware update.

Does the firmware install work on 9.2.2 or does it need 9.1?

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

That card is a stinker. I recommend flashing something like the 64mb Radeon 7000 pci with Aticcelerator & sticking it in. Cheap easy fix. Roms can be found on macelite.

 

[Slix]

Thanks for the advice, in the end I got Tiger installed by putting the G3's SSD into my G5 and installing it from there. Since performance (even with an SSD) is abysmal on Tiger due to the Rage 128, I'll probably end up putting OS 9 and some older version of X on it instead so I'll use that firmware update.

Does the firmware install work on 9.2.2 or does it need 9.1?

If you got it to boot 10.4 by transplanting the hard drive over, it likely had the firmware update already but you can check by going to System Profiler I believe. 9.1 or later is required for most of the firmware installers I think though, so 9.2.2 should work. I suggested 9.1 because some computers struggled with booting to 9.2.2 when I attempted these updates in the past. 😓

 

[mustagcoupe]

I have a rev a g3. What i did was use a normal ide hard drive attached to the built in ide controller for os 8.6 and os 9.2. I added a sil 3112 sata card flashed with the osx firmware and a sata drive to run osx. Its a bit awkward because to change from os 8.6 or 9.2 i have to boot into open firmware and type in the multi-boot command and then select the drive with osx on it because it cant be seen from classic. Going from osx to classic works the normal way with the startup drive picker in settings. It was cheap and so far has worked flawlessly, no random crashes or corruption.

If you got it to boot 10.4 by transplanting the hard drive over, it likely had the firmware update already but you can check by going to System Profiler I believe. 9.1 or later is required for most of the firmware installers I think though, so 9.2.2 should work. I suggested 9.1 because some computers struggled with booting to 9.2.2 when I attempted these updates in the past. 😓

I cloned a drive to i think it was my blue and white but it might have been my sawtooth before i did the firmware update. It worked but did some rather insane things. The one i remember most clearly was trying to access system profiler would crash the system

 

[DearthnVader]

have a rev a g3. What i did was use a normal ide hard drive attached to the built in ide controller for os 8.6 and os 9.2. I added a sil 3112 sata card flashed with the osx firmware and a sata drive to run osx. Its a bit awkward because to change from os 8.6 or 9.2 i have to boot into open firmware and type in the multi-boot command and then select the drive with osx on it because it cant be seen from classic. Going from osx to classic works the normal way with the startup drive picker in settings. It was cheap and so far has worked flawlessly, no random crashes or corruption.

You may want to try these:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/sil3112-mac-os-mass-storage-drivers.2339763/

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

I have a rev a g3. What i did was use a normal ide hard drive attached to the built in ide controller for os 8.6 and os 9.2. I added a sil 3112 sata card flashed with the osx firmware and a sata drive to run osx. Its a bit awkward because to change from os 8.6 or 9.2 i have to boot into open firmware and type in the multi-boot command and then select the drive with osx on it because it cant be seen from classic. Going from osx to classic works the normal way with the startup drive picker in settings. It was cheap and so far has worked flawlessly, no random crashes or corruption.

I dont own a rev A but do have a rev B and this was my solution. I flashed a Sil3512 with the weibetech flashing utility and boot OSX off that pci card (what I use 99% of the time) and then run classic macos off the fireball it came with.

 

[mustagcoupe]

You may want to try these:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/sil3112-mac-os-mass-storage-drivers.2339763/

I tried those and was unable to get it to work, no effect at all. I just have not had the time to troubleshoot or make a post about it not working for me.

 

[DearthnVader]

I tried those and was unable to get it to work, no effect at all. I just have not had the time to troubleshoot or make a post about it not working for me.

Did you check if you could mount the disks via Drive Setup?

 

[mustagcoupe]

As far as i remember when i tested it months ago i could not see the disk in any way. I tried multiple ways of mounting it which probably included drive setup and was never able to see the disk and i dont think the card showed up in system profiler. The extension also had no icon, not sure if thats normal or not. Im pretty sure I downloaded it using my PC which might have mangled it. I usually download things from my pc because its faster, usually theyre protected in macbinary or whatever and it works fine but not always. I just have not gotten around to downloading them directly to the g3 and doing further troubleshooting. I mostly use it as a jukebox using itunes in tiger so the annoyance of not being able to see the disks from classic isnt that big of a deal at the moment.

EDIT:
I downloaded the extension directly to the g3 using tenfourfox and tried it in both 8.6 and 9.2 with and without all extensions enabled and i still get nothing. It shows up in the extensions manager and system profiler as enabled and has an ati icon. When i open drive setup it does not show up. I have 3 choices, the hard drive ata, a greyed out atapi, and an atapi that says cdrom. The greyed out atapi shows up with or without the extension enabled so i assume its the zip drive? The sata card also does not show up in system profiler with or without the extension. My card says weibetech in the 10.4 tiger system profiler so thats the extension i used, but just incase i tried the seritek one and got the same result. Enabled but nothing shows up in system profiler or drive setup.