Trying to replace Q700 Hard Drive-Where am I Going Wrong

Discussion in 'Apple Collectors' started by bunnspecial, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #1
    I'm trying to upgrade the factory 160mb drive in my Quadra 700 to a newer/faster Quantum Fireball 500mb drive. I primarily want to do this so that I can then put the 160mb IBM drive in the Quadra in my Macintosh SE.

    In any case, I got the 500mb drive in, and hooked both the 500mb drive and 160mb drive up to my Digital Audio G4 via a SCSI card. I left the 160mb drive set to ID O and termination on, and the 500mb drive set to ID 1 with termination 1.

    I booted into OS X(apparently I don't have an OS 9 driver for the card I'm using). Both drives were recognized fine, although I did have to initialize the "new" 500mb drive. I formatted it as Mac OS Standard.

    I then just copied and pasted everything over to the 500mb drive. Just to be safe, I reblessed the system folder on the new drive(at least using the procedure as I understand it) by moving the "system" file into the preferences folder and moving it back out. And, just to double check my work, I powered down the G4, removed the 160mb drive, set the 500mb to ID 0 with termination on, and rebooted. It was recognized and read just fine.

    Both the Quadra and the SE booted to a disk drive with question mark with the 500mb drive installed. Both booted just fine with the 160mb drive installed.

    Any ideas as to where I might have gone wrong?
     
  2. Intell macrumors P6

    Intell

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    Location:
    Inside
  3. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #3
    How did you format the 500MB drive? HFS Standard or Extended?

    Extended is the default in OSX but it won't be able to boot from that. It needs to be Standard HFS with an Apple Partition Map.
     
  4. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #4
    I did format as "Mac OS Standard." I did forget to check if it was APM(I've replaced so many hard drives that I normally do that automatically-I forgot to do so this time!).

    The full model number is 500MB FRBLS 655-0272 *ML537W6E3ZBA*

    Apparently, it is an Apple OEM drive, as it has the Apple logo on the sticker.
     
  5. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #5
    Sorry, I was wrong on the drive p/n(I picked up the wrong drive when I was posting earlier)

    I actually don't see a p/n on this particular drive. It just says "Quantum Fireball 3.5" Series" and a whole list of patent numbers along with the power requirements.

    This is NOT an Apple OEM drive.

    In any case, I went back and checked, and it is correctly formatted with APM.
     
  6. weckart macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2004
    #6
    Isn't it moving the Finder icon out of the System Folder and back that reblesses it?

    I would try to boot with floppies to check if the SF is blessed.
     
  7. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #7
    Booting from floppy is actually a great idea. You'll see if the volume is mountable - that will confirm if the on-disk driver is compatible with the 68K Q700. And if you DON'T see a system icon on the "System Folder" you'll know it's not blessed.

    Otherwise, what is the make/model or PCI Vendor ID and Product ID to see if OS9 drivers can be sourced for your SCSI card ?
     
  8. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #8
    Thanks-I will try this when I get home. Hopefully I can get the internal floppy in the Q700 to work long enough to boot off of it. I just wish that these had an external floppy port, as I have a good, working external floppy...

    My SCSI card is an Adaptec 39160
     
  9. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #9
  10. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #10
  11. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #11
    Yes, if that 7.5 was installed as a "Universal System", otherwise it might only partially boot and then crash.
     
  12. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #12
    Is there any way to boot either of these computers off an external SCSI Zip drive?
     
  13. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #13
    Yes, but you need:

    1. to tun on the Zip Drive and insert the disk BEFORE you turn on the Mac so that the driver on the Zip disk can load and make itself available on the SCSI BUS.

    2. need to have formatted the disk with a version of ZipTools that still puts the SCSI driver on the Zip disk. Many newer versions don't and rely on the system extension of the booted system to mount the disk (Catch22).

    To discover (2), just try (1) and you find out if you have the necessary drivers on your disk.

    IIRC, ZIPTools 4.2 puts the driver on.
     
  14. bunnspecial, Jan 5, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015

    bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #14
    Thanks-that will be my next avenue of attack.

    The Q700 has Zip Tools 4.2 installed.

    EDIT:

    I may be getting somewhere...at least OS X now seems to think that I have a blessed system folder on both the original Quadra HD(Mac HD) and the new hard drive(Q700 Mac HD)
     

    Attached Files:

  15. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #15
    IIRC, OSX doesn't use the 'system folder pointer' in the same way that a native classic OS does. Which might be why OS9 needed Startup Disk v9.2.1 to set the startup system correctly. Still, it's a good sign that it's recognized as a System Folder.
     
  16. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #16
    I'm beginning to think that-as suggested-maybe the problem is that the 68K Macs just don't "like" the 500mb drive I'm using.

    I may play a big game of musical chairs with all of my SCSI based Macs to get something working...

    My 7100 currently has an OEM Apple 1gb drive with OS 8 installed. My 8500 has two 2gb OEM drives in it-there was one(OS 8) in it when I got it that was nearly full, but I moved a lot of "junk" off the main HDD to the secondary one to free up space.

    I know that the 160mb drive in the Quadra will boot the SE, although it's miserably slow with system 7.5.

    So, here's my current plan:

    1. Condense the 8500 down to one 2gb drive-I'm going to use a a ZIP drive to move a lot of personal documents(that I really have no business having) off the hard drives in it currently, then burn those to a CD or DVD(depending on how much I end up cleaning off). I can then give those files to the computer's original owner, and rid myself of them

    2. Transplant the secondary 2gb drive in the 8500 to the 7100, and copy everything on the current 7100 drive over to the 2gb drive. Both are PPC-era Apple OEM drives, so this shouldn't be an issue.

    3. Move the 1gb drive from the 7100 over to the Quadra, and copy the current HDD contents to it. Again, since it's an OEM drive from the very early PPC days, hopefully it will work.

    4. Put the 160mb drive in the SE, format it, and install either System 7 or maybe system 6. As I said, it's uncomfortably slow with 7.5.

    5. Put the 500mb drive I just bought in the 8500, where(hopefully) it will work.
     
  17. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #17
    I suspect it's the SCSI driver on the 500MB drive or the System Folder Pointer isn't set correctly.

    If you daisy-chained the 160MB and the 500MB within the Quadra700 (requiring a power splitter or external power supply for the second drive) and then used a third party formatter for the 500MB drive, it should work.

    I've never had a problem with Quantum drives in a 68K 040 Mac (other than needing a third party formatter). Hard Disk Toolkit v1.7 or later, Silverlining, or other third party formatter should get you over that hurdle.

    However, your own solution also sounds reasonable. I'll leave it to you to decide.
     
  18. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #18
    Okay, I'm about to the point of pulling my hair out with all of this.

    I pulled the second 2gb drive out of the 8500 with no issues at all. It's running perfectly.

    I then opened the 7100 and pulled the 1gb hard drive out of it to attempt to get it transferred over to the 2gb drive. I couldn't get the drive in the 7100 to be recognized at all in my DA G4 that I've been using to do all this work. Yes, I did double check ID numbers and termination-it just would not show up. I hadn't booted the 7100 in a while, but put it back together with the 1gb drive and it booted perfectly. I just closed it back up and left it as-is.

    I then decided to put the 2gb drive in the Q700. I formatted it in my DA(Mac OS Standard, APM, OS 9 drivers installed) and did a direct copy and paste from the Quadra drive. I stuck the 2gb drive in the Quadra(ID 0, termination on) and it booted to a question mark. Since the floppy in the Quadra is dead, I got brave and pulled the floppy drive out of my working external and installed it in the Quadra. I was able to boot off the "Disk Tools" disk that comes in the System 7 disk folder. Upon booting, it recognized the 2gb drive, but showed no files on it and no free space. I attempted to initialize it with tool on the Disk Tools disk, but got an error every time I attempted to manipulate the drive.

    I then did as suggested above and connected both the 2gb disk(ID 1, termination off) and the 160mb disk(ID 0, termination on) to the Quadra. I couldn't dig out a Molex splitter(even though I have about a hundred of them around somewhere) so powered the 160gb drive off an external power supply. Somewhere in the process, I'd managed to unbless the system folder on 160mb drive, but was able to rebless it using Disk Tools and then boot from this hard drive.

    Once I booted it off the 160mb drive, I was able to see both drives. The 2gb drive, however, still showed as empty and with no free space. Even worse, every time I tried to open a program or do anything with both HDDs connected, the computer would lock up and do nothing-I couldn't even move the mouse pointer.

    I finally just gave up and returned the Quadra to it stock configuration, and it's now running fine.

    I attempted to locate the disk utilities mentioned above, but all I could find were dead links to where they could be purchased 15+ years ago.

    I know I was warned above that I could have issues with trying to do what I'm doing in OS X. I do have a pair of beige G3s, both of which have completely unused SCSI busses at the moment. Both are also running OS 9. I'm wondering if I might have more luck formatting the disks in one of those computer under OS 9, and the doing my copying/pasting there. Any thoughts on this?

    I'll also add that at the moment all that I'm playing with are OEM Apple Quantum drives, although I still want to get the 500mb Quantum drive working somewhere or another in this rotation.
     
  19. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #19
    I'm a little perplexed about the 2GB drive mounting with nothing on it and no free space but I wonder if OSX is formatting it with an odd block size. I'm pretty sure 7.5.5 will recognize 2GB volumes so I'm pretty sure it's not that.

    As for formatting third party drives, try this:

    Hard Disk ToolKit PE 2.0.1.zip (1.04 MB)
     
  20. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #20
    Thanks for the link-I'll try it this evening.

    I know that 7.5.5 will recognize a 2gb drive, as I had this drive working perfecttlt under 7.5.5. in my 8500.
     

Share This Page