Turin shroud 'older than thought'

stubeeef

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Aug 10, 2004
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While I am not up on my Shroud knowledge, the real point here is that once again don't put a lot of FAITH in the latest findings, they never seem to be conclusive. While I see the need to try to find the information, it seems to add more questions than answer any. That's ok just, hard to make conclustions from any of it.

The Shroud is an enigma.
 

wordmunger

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Sep 3, 2003
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Even if the cloth is very old, it still could be (and probably is) a fake. After all, a forger (many believe it is Leonardo da Vinci) smart enough to make such a convincing fake wouldn't be stupid enough to use a BRAND NEW piece of fabric!
 

stubeeef

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Aug 10, 2004
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wordmunger said:
Even if the cloth is very old, it still could be (and probably is) a fake. After all, a forger (many believe it is Leonardo da Vinci) smart enough to make such a convincing fake wouldn't be stupid enough to use a BRAND NEW piece of fabric!
Good to hear from someone with a M.A. in Science Education! See you really do get to use that sheepskin! :)
 

iGav

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Mar 9, 2002
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wordmunger said:
Even if the cloth is very old, it still could be (and probably is) a fake. After all, a forger (many believe it is Leonardo da Vinci) smart enough to make such a convincing fake wouldn't be stupid enough to use a BRAND NEW piece of fabric!
I don't know what to make of it to be honest. I'm not entirely convinced it's a fake because so I understand the image hasn't been painted on, it's more like it's been through some form of chemical, photographic type exposure process and I'm not sure that Leonardo as clever as he was, was ultimately that clever or had the knowledge of such a complex process to create such and image.

It's a fascinating subject though, even if it's unlikely ever to be proven that it is infact the image of the body of Jesus.
 

MOFS

macrumors 65816
Feb 27, 2003
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iGAV said:
I don't know what to make of it to be honest. I'm not entirely convinced it's a fake because so I understand the image hasn't been painted on, it's more like it's been through some form of chemical, photographic type exposure process and I'm not sure that Leonardo as clever as he was, was ultimately that clever or had the knowledge of such a complex process to create such and image.

It's a fascinating subject though, even if it's unlikely ever to be proven that it is infact the image of the body of Jesus.
Does it really matter if this really is the shorud of Jesus? I mean, do Christians really need this kind of faith to reaffirm their faith?[/off topic]

Couldn't the shroud have been produced by a composite of layers over each other to produce this imaging? Just wondering...
 

stubeeef

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Aug 10, 2004
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MOFS said:
Does it really matter if this really is the shorud of Jesus? I mean, do Christians really need this kind of faith to reaffirm their faith?
Speaking just for me, It means nothing as to my Christian Faith. It is neat to think of it's possible past, but it is nowhere near essential to my faith.
 

iGav

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MOFS said:
Does it really matter if this really is the shorud of Jesus? I mean, do Christians really need this kind of faith to reaffirm their faith?[/off topic]
I don't know? it'd be something though if there was tangible, physical evidence of histories most revered religious person.

Faith is all good and well, but proof...


MOFS said:
Couldn't the shroud have been produced by a composite of layers over each other to produce this imaging? Just wondering...
The image is actually on individual threads, and not all the way through either in somecases, which rules out dying or painting. Photographic knowledge was non-existant at the time, and knowledge of chemical processes was limited too.

Also the image has 'contours' where some of the material was close to the body surface and other parts where it is further away. Much like how it would be if you wrapped a body up, which would suggest that it did contain a body at some time or another.

It's a negative too, which I think is really freaky.
 

wordmunger

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iGAV said:
Also the image has 'contours' where some of the material was close to the body surface and other parts where it is further away. Much like how it would be if you wrapped a body up, which would suggest that it did contain a body at some time or another.

It's a negative too, which I think is really freaky.

All that might be true, but it's not the image you'd get if you actually wrapped the body in a shroud. The head, for example, should be distended, because the *side* of the head is just as big as the front. If the image was made from a shroud, it shouldn't look like a head-on painting or photo of a body.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
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iGAV said:
Faith is all good and well, but proof...
This is not meant to highjack your thread, but as far as scientific proof, look no further than the Big Bang theory, or the miracle of a flower. (sorry just had to say that).
It is interesting how people see the face of Christ or the Virgin Mary in food, animal fur, clouds, ....
Could it be a sign from God, or just coincedence?
There are events in medjugorje or those in Lourdes that are far more interesting to me.
The Shroud is "covered" in contraversy, if not for being linked to Christ himself, who knows how forgotten it would be.
I am a protestant, but my brother is a Charmelite Monk (Catholic), and confided to me that his roseary has turned gold to prayer.
There are so many other ways than the shroud to follow the mystic past of Christianity.

edit: (as i see the negative of a circle) WM the troxler thing was wild!
 

brap

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May 10, 2004
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wordmunger said:
If the image was made from a shroud, it shouldn't look like a head-on painting or photo of a body.
This is what happens when a Miracle tries to be explained using logic.

Even if conventional logic gave adequate proof one way or the other, what's to say that wasn't the original intention?
 

wordmunger

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Sep 3, 2003
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brap said:
This is what happens when a Miracle tries to be explained using logic.

Even if conventional logic gave adequate proof one way or the other, what's to say that wasn't the original intention?
Then I declare my iBook is a sign from GOD! What's to say it isn't? Your "logic" says my iBook is a commodity item produced in China, but what if God intended us to think that's all it was, when really it's a sign of HIS greatness?
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
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stubeeef said:
It is interesting how people see the face of Christ or the Virgin Mary in food, animal fur, clouds,... Could it be a sign from God, or just coincedence?

Or inkblots...

It's called projection (and I'm not going to get sidetracked into the nitty-gritty of the Freudian definition of projection...)

Honestly... if I see a cloud shaped like a rabbit does that mean that it's a sign from Bugs Bunny?
 

brap

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May 10, 2004
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wordmunger said:
Then I declare my iBook is a sign from GOD! What's to say it isn't? Your "logic" says my iBook is a commodity item produced in China, but what if God intended us to think that's all it was, when really it's a sign of HIS greatness?
Hehe...
for reference, this isn't my logic - I'm as agnostic as can be. The thing is, this is the tried and true argument, and your overt sarcasm proves that there just isn't any kind of reasonable retort possible, when faced with faith.
 

wdlove

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Oct 20, 2002
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Humans always try to see something human like a face in objects.

The testing of the shroud of Turin has no effect on me one way or the other. My Christian faith isn't related to anything physical. As time goes on more objects are being found by archeologists to prove many of the writings in the Bible.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
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Blue Velvet said:
Or inkblots...

It's called projection (and I'm not going to get sidetracked into the nitty-gritty of the Freudian definition of projection...)

Honestly... if I see a cloud shaped like a rabbit does that mean that it's a sign from Bugs Bunny?
I was kinda make'n fun of it too, at least the "projection" of Christ in a cows spots, a potato chip, etc....sorry it wasn't obvious.
 

Don't panic

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Jan 30, 2004
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having a drink at Milliways
wordmunger said:
Even if the cloth is very old, it still could be (and probably is) a fake. After all, a forger (many believe it is Leonardo da Vinci) smart enough to make such a convincing fake wouldn't be stupid enough to use a BRAND NEW piece of fabric!
i never heard of the leonardo claims, but the first reference to the syndone is in the 1350, whereas leonardo was born approximately a century later in 1452.
Most experts agree that it's a medieval artifact, but it could still come from palestine or be made with middle-eastern linen.
It still remains very interesting how it was produced. one of the longest-standing puzzles of all times.
 

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