U.K. Government Targets Tech Giants Like Apple and Amazon Over Tax Payments

[lederermc]

Apple and Starbucks have shown us all that profits can be shuffled to any country that want. Starbucks shifts all UK profits to Amsterdam by using a pseudo licensing fee. The solution for this corruption is for each company that sells products in a country to be taxed on global profits prorated based on the portion of products sold in the country. If 10% of all Apple goods and services (pre-VAT) are sold in the UK then the UK government should tax 10% of Apple global profits.

 

[Falhófnir]

Wasn’t a good budget outlook yesterday, was it? Growth cut amongst other bad news.

A ‘no deal’ outcome isn’t going to be good for the UK. A growing number of Tory PMs beginning to realize this.

The euro zone outpacing the UK.

The May government in constant turmoil.

Just saying, I wouldn't throw stones in glass houses when Canada's about to have the NAFTA rug ripped out from under it's feet by Trump - you might find yourselves dependent on something of a CANZUK trade deal in the coming years 😉

 

[Stella]

Just saying, I wouldn't throw stones in glass houses when Canada's about to have the NAFTA rug ripped out from under it's feet by Trump - you might find yourselves dependent on something of a CANZUK trade deal in the coming years 😉

I'm not throwing stones. I find Brexit ludicrous - it's self harm on false pretences.

Trump, the toddler president, is being himself. Industries in the US, such as Auto sector are against the proposed u.s revised NAFTA proposals. trump isn't listening.

trump is going to damage the u.s economy too if he decides to pull out of NAFTA. There are questions to whether Trump himself can even cancel NAFTA.

 

[Falhófnir]

I'm not throwing stones.

The hole is getting deeper.

The UK is getting what it wanted - ‘freedom’!

Hope your enjoying your kippers!

Wasn’t a good budget outlook yesterday, was it? Growth cut amongst other bad news.

A ‘no deal’ outcome isn’t going to be good for the UK. A growing number of Tory PMs beginning to realize this.

The euro zone outpacing the UK.

The May government in constant turmoil.

Those are some pretty barbed comments!

I find Brexit ludicrous - it's self harm on false pretences.

In what way? Economically it could be disadvantageous, it will certainly be disruptive in the short term, but then the British economy hasn’t exactly been stellar inside the EU anyway. Monumental trade deficits made possible by uber cheap imports from the continent have helped strip domestic manufacturing to an (incomplete) skeleton. An overly strong pound has amplified that effect further. We’ve racked up over 80% of GDP (~1.7 trillion pounds) in debt whilst in the EU. Companies have been able to pay the bulk of their U.K. taxes in places with unsustainably low corporation tax rates like Ireland and Luxembourg. Cheap European labour has helped unskilled industries like agriculture doing hand picking, but driven down wages in skilled jobs like building trades. Additional pressure put on housing stock has contributed to prices spiking to levels which are crippling people’s ability to buy en masse. All Britain has ever wanted out of the EU is a trading partnership, they have forged ahead to political union against our wishes. Ultimately, the EU has clawed its way into a position where it must either federalise, or step back and disband the Euro, the status quo cannot hold in the long term. Federalisation is not acceptable to the people of the U.K., polls pre referendum (haven’t seen any since, but have zero reason to think it’s changed) suggested a full 80% of people opposed the idea of a ‘United States of Europe’ and yet that’s where it is inexorably headed. IMO we were therefore going to have to go sooner or later. Maybe doing it now instead of further down the line will save us pain in the long term.

Trump, the toddler president, is being himself. Industries in the US, such as Auto sector are against the proposed u.s revised NAFTA proposals. trump isn't listening.

trump is going to damage the u.s economy too if he decides to pull out of NAFTA. There are questions to whether Trump himself can even cancel NAFTA.

Cancelling it would be option two, renegotiating it to be more advantageous to the US [and because that is a zero sum game, less advantageous to Canada and Mexico] is the primary aim. At what point does it tip over into out and out harmful to Canadian interests? Will it? Wait and see, Trump is holding most of the cards being alone the majority of the NAFTA economy and population.

 

[2010mini]

Why do they call them loopholes when they created them? Is Apple breaking the law? No. They and other companies follow the laws as written. Change the laws and there will be no more issues.

 

[69650]

It’s a start but doesn’t go far enough. We should tax multinational corp’s based on their actual sales revenues in the UK regardess of how much they claim to make in profits. I think a flat rate of 20% tax on all UK revenue generated would be reasonable.

 

[McScooby]

It’s a start but doesn’t go far enough. We should tax multinational corp’s based on their actual sales revenues in the UK regardess of how much they claim to make in profits. I think a flat rate of 20% tax on all UK revenue generated would be reasonable.

We do, it's known as VAT. COTAX should be zero, that would sort it.

 

[Stella]

What makes a good trade partner shouldn't be judged by trade deficits alone.


You say EU is at the fault of:
- high housing prices? No evidence of that. House prices started to increase rapidly in the 90s. Before extra countries were added to the EU. There's been a lack of affordable housing for years and years.
- Increased UK debt? What evidence? 2008 added a lot of debt - didn't help that he UK handed out mortgages via 'self-certification' BS ( just ONE example ) - which contributed to a longer recovery period, and bailouts. A lot of debt was due to UK's consistent mis-management, boom / bust economy.
- driven down wages? This was UK policy - The UK used cheap labour to ensure wages did NOT rise excessively for the general population. There's a few studies to suggest wages haven't been driven down by EU immigration to the UK - there's plenty of links via Google ( https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ck-are-eu-migrants-really-taking-british-jobs )

You like to pin blame on the EU, but much of UK's issues were made by its own governments.

Exports? Now, even when the pound is low, exports are still sluggish.

Those are some pretty barbed comments!


In what way? Economically it could be disadvantageous, it will certainly be disruptive in the short term, but then the British economy hasn’t exactly been stellar inside the EU anyway. Monumental trade deficits made possible by uber cheap imports from the continent have helped strip domestic manufacturing to an (incomplete) skeleton. An overly strong pound has amplified that effect further. We’ve racked up over 80% of GDP (~1.7 trillion pounds) in debt whilst in the EU. Companies have been able to pay the bulk of their U.K. taxes in places with unsustainably low corporation tax rates like Ireland and Luxembourg. Cheap European labour has helped unskilled industries like agriculture doing hand picking, but driven down wages in skilled jobs like building trades. Additional pressure put on housing stock has contributed to prices spiking to levels which are crippling people’s ability to buy en masse. All Britain has ever wanted out of the EU is a trading partnership, they have forged ahead to political union against our wishes. Ultimately, the EU has clawed its way into a position where it must either federalise, or step back and disband the Euro, the status quo cannot hold in the long term. Federalisation is not acceptable to the people of the U.K., polls pre referendum (haven’t seen any since, but have zero reason to think it’s changed) suggested a full 80% of people opposed the idea of a ‘United States of Europe’ and yet that’s where it is inexorably headed. IMO we were therefore going to have to go sooner or later. Maybe doing it now instead of further down the line will save us pain in the long term.

 

[Falhófnir]

What makes a good trade partner shouldn't be judged by trade deficits alone.


You say EU is at the fault of:
- high housing prices? No evidence of that. House prices started to increase rapidly in the 90s. Before extra countries were added to the EU. There's been a lack of affordable housing for years and years.
- Increased UK debt? What evidence? 2008 added a lot of debt - didn't help that he UK handed out mortgages via 'self-certification' BS ( just ONE example ) - which contributed to a longer recovery period, and bailouts. A lot of debt was due to UK's consistent mis-management, boom / bust economy.
- driven down wages? This was UK policy - The UK used cheap labour to ensure salaries did NOT rise excessively for the general population.

You like to pin blame on the EU, but much of UK's issues were made by its own governments.

Exports? Now, even when the pound is low, exports are still sluggish.

Nope, you’ve completely got the wrong end of the stick there; for the most part I’m not saying these things have been caused by the EU, I’m saying being in the EU hasn’t prevented them from happening. Britain’s economy has always been pretty crappy, back in the mid 1800s we’d strong armed 1/4 of the planet into a preferential trade racket with ourselves and by 1900 we’d failed so spectacularly to capitalise on that that our economy was scarcely bigger than the Germans who owned a grand total of Tanzania.

My point is the EU is seen as the key to British prosperity and it just demonstrably hasn’t been. Our economic performance since joining has been no better than before we joined on average - it’s been mostly influenced by domestic circumstances. I see no evidence that ultimately we’ll do any better or worse once we’re back outside, but the millennials have to have something shift the blame to for their personal shortcomings onto because god forbid if they don’t become overwhelmingly successful it couldn’t be their fault could it 😉

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Apple should just close down operations in UK. Their contribution to worldwide Apple sales is negligible anyways. Desperate Brits can still get Apple products through the grey market dealers (probably Russian importers who will make huge profits).

Negligible? The UK is Apples biggest market in Europe and this has been a major reason for releases coming here first before mainland Europe over the years.

I doubt there will be a huge number of ‘desperate Brits’ paying for grey imports. More likely other brands will just receive a large boost and Apple will lose out.

I’m still bewildered as to why people like you feel Apple should punish consumers here because Apple only want to pay a third of the corporation tax they are supposed to declare? They’ve abused a legal loophole and it’s now being closed. That’s not our fault is it?

 

[Marshall73]

Apple should just close down operations in UK. Their contribution to worldwide Apple sales is negligible anyways. Desperate Brits can still get Apple products through the grey market dealers (probably Russian importers who will make huge profits).

Apple don’t need to close down operations in the U.K. They hiked their prices and are filling their war chest so any additional tax burden can easily be paid off by U.K. customers and Apple won’t be affected in the slightest.

 

[Jambalaya]

It has no legal claim? Since when? And your Prime Minister seems to disagree.

The House of Lords (ie top legal brains) said the EU has no legal claim. If you wish PM me and I will send you the link.

The PM has offered to continue to pay into the EU budget for 2 further years in return for a 2yr transition period (ie same free trade access) and a guaranty of a future free trade deal

 

[Stella]

Ok - sorry about that! - re: wrong end of stick.

Nope, you’ve completely got the wrong end of the stick there; for the most part I’m not saying these things have been caused by the EU, I’m saying being in the EU hasn’t prevented them from happening. Britain’s economy has always been pretty crappy, back in the mid 1800s we’d strong armed 1/4 of the planet into a preferential trade racket with ourselves and by 1900 we’d failed so spectacularly to capitalise on that that our economy was scarcely bigger than the Germans who owned a grand total of Tanzania.

My point is the EU is seen as the key to British prosperity and it just demonstrably hasn’t been. Our economic performance since joining has been no better than before we joined on average - it’s been mostly influenced by domestic circumstances. I see no evidence that ultimately we’ll do any better or worse once we’re back outside, but the millennials have to have something shift the blame to for their personal shortcomings onto because god forbid if they don’t become overwhelmingly successful it couldn’t be their fault could it 😉

 

[thasan]

Well done, we have to ask outselves why it has taken so long. Apple’s behaviour is morally corrupt and CEO Cook well knows it.
[doublepost=1511439055][/doublepost]

No deal, no money.

We are enjoying every single second as the EU squirms for money for which it has no legal claim whatsoever. Apple owes Ireland €13bn and the EU is suing Ireland for non-collection. What a mess

Not directly related but just curious... 1) do you submit tax return? 2) have you ever tried to find clauses that will lighten your tax burden or enable you to get a tax refund?
I am yet to meet someone who is unhappy when they get tax refund from the tax office. Everyone is happy to pay less taxes. Some has means to hire lawyers to find holes in the tax system, some don’t.
[doublepost=1511503383][/doublepost]

Don’t see what that’s got to do with anything. Debt and deficit problem has been going since 2008, when there was no hint of Brexit. The EU didn’t stop us racking up £1.7trn of debt, it didn’t stop Apple avoiding tax (indeed it helped facilitate legal tax avoidance), it didn’t stop our productivity being abysmal, it didn’t help us manufacture and export, or to maintain a good balance of trade.

This is a completely separate issue, whether Brexit is a good or bad thing, it’s irrelevant to this discussion. This is about the British government making a move towards a no ifs no buts 20% means 20% on corporation tax, and it should be welcomed by any sane taxpayer.

This I fully agree. It’s not apples fault but it’s the fault of the system. The government has the responsibility to closing all tax loopholes. And then Apple and other corporations have the responsibility to pay taxes (and of course, as less as permitted by the law).

 

[fairuz]

I was expecting a lot more than $1.07 billion over 5 years.

 

[weckart]

It’s a start but doesn’t go far enough. We should tax multinational corp’s based on their actual sales revenues in the UK regardess of how much they claim to make in profits. I think a flat rate of 20% tax on all UK revenue generated would be reasonable.

Apart from VAT as already stated, a few countries in the former USSR carried on the process of taxing corporations based on revenue rather than profits. It led to bankruptcy over bankruptcy as companies could not afford to pay taxes when making net losses. There is a reason that profit is the measure for calculating taxes. The only problem is determining what constitutes a profit.

 

[H2SO4]

Wasn’t a good budget outlook yesterday, was it? Growth cut amongst other bad news.

A ‘no deal’ outcome isn’t going to be good for the UK. A growing number of Tory PMs beginning to realize this.

The euro zone outpacing the UK.

The May government in constant turmoil.

That's your answer to the fact that Apple are avoiding tax? Wow.

 

[alexgowers]

If the UK government raises taxes on Apple, does Apple just eat it, or simply raise prices on goods sold in the UK?

Do the citizens of the UK actually benefit, or do grandstanding politicians just get a nice photo op, and the chance to crow about raising tax revenue from foreign corporations come election time?

It’s very complicated. I believe amazon would aim to charge the same as competitors as they could beat their prices if they rise and undermine amazon in the U.K. If they were forced to pay tax or get out and it was successful it could spur other countries to do the same. The domino effect could destroy Amazons business and others. I do think it’s time fair shares of tax is paid but it’ll force prices to rise for consumers and slow down economic growth.

No one outside the U.K. Wants the U.K. to be successful after leaving the EU. It’s gonna be tough maybe even disastrous as everyone has us by the balls with no crowbar in sight to lever them off.

 

[PickUrPoison]

It’s very complicated. I believe amazon would aim to charge the same as competitors as they could beat their prices if they rise and undermine amazon in the U.K. If they were forced to pay tax or get out and it was successful it could spur other countries to do the same. The domino effect could destroy Amazons business and others. I do think it’s time fair shares of tax is paid but it’ll force prices to rise for consumers and slow down economic growth.

No one outside the U.K. Wants the U.K. to be successful after leaving the EU. It’s gonna be tough maybe even disastrous as everyone has us by the balls with no crowbar in sight to lever them off.

It is complicated. Unfortunately, the worst mistake in response to the 2008 recession continues, even after the last 9 years of its failure—the misguided austerity program.

I realize not all countries can do as the US did, using government borrowing to make up for a drop in consumer demand. But imo the UK would be far better off if they’d chosen to ease off the gas pedal, instead of stomping on the brake (at the worst possible time).

Had the UK economy not been so badly derailed by austerity, I don’t think there would have been such a nationalist response, and the UK would likely still be in the EU. It’ll probably be decades before they realize they’re worse off trying to go it alone.

 

[SeattleMoose]

Historically Britain is the most evil country and blood-thirsty tax collector in the world. They created a whole empire and then taxed it to death. Tea Party!!!!

 

[Stella]

That's your answer to the fact that Apple are avoiding tax? Wow.

No, its not. its a follow up to a sub-thread conversation.

You can see this clearly.

:-\

 

[Falhófnir]

It is complicated. Unfortunately, the worst mistake in response to the 2008 recession continues, even after the last 9 years of its failure—the misguided austerity program.

I realize not all countries can do as the US did, using government borrowing to make up for a drop in consumer demand. But imo the UK would be far better off if they’d chosen to ease off the gas pedal, instead of stomping on the brake (at the worst possible time).

Had the UK economy not been so badly derailed by austerity, I don’t think there would have been such a nationalist response, and the UK would likely still be in the EU. It’ll probably be decades before they realize they’re worse off trying to go it alone.

I tend to think austerity in the first instance was a reasonable response, there were huge inefficiencies that it rectified and it consolidated borrowing at a lower interest level, this has saved us a pretty big chunk of money in the long term without having a gigantic impact on growth and prosperity. Where you’re right is that it’s still government policy today, when cuts are having a material impact on growth. Realistically by the 2015 election we should already have moved on to stimulating growth with some (even quite modest) borrowing to invest, but instead it was decided to double down on cuts and that’s where the damage has started to come through. Our deficit has been back at normal investment cycle levels for quite a few years now, but the government is insistent on chasing its own tail and balancing the budgets with cuts not growth.

 

[Ingster]

Whilst there are loopholes and the ability for companies to avoid paying as much tax they will, what the government needs to do is to close the loopholes, but the politicians are using them too but keeping it hush hush or they have links to big corporations.

 

[dogslobber]

Do the citizens of the UK actually benefit, or do grandstanding politicians just get a nice photo op, and the chance to crow about raising tax revenue from foreign corporations come election time?

The Tory Party is a decrepit cesspit of scum who are corrupt to the core and lead by a bunch of incompetent fools. Their leader isn’t called May-bot for no reason, you have a buffoon like BoJo who constantly puts his foot in his mouth, plus the sleekit Gove waiting in the wings. All those people make Scrooge IDS seem like a saint.

When you have a bunch like that then you can bet it’s the latter and the punters will pay though the nose for the privilege.
[doublepost=1511537297][/doublepost]

I tend to think austerity in the first instance was a reasonable response,

Austerity is a word which means shaft the poor people. Let those who caused the financial meltdown keep their ill gotten gains and let the volumous unwashed masses pick up the tab. Everybody who profited from the 2008 meltdown should be in jail. In particular, those landlords who buy up property and screw renters, the bankers who profited handsomely, all the politicians, etc. The list is endless.

 

[lederermc]

Historically Britain is the most evil country and blood-thirsty tax collector in the world. They created a whole empire and then taxed it to death. Tea Party!!!!

The US Tea Party makes the US equally evil.