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No, I’m just refuting the absurd notion that the 30% cut is the cost of operating an App Store. If that were the case then Visa and MasterCard would’ve gone under a long time ago since they support a worldwide payment network (a little more complex than the App Store) with 1-3% transaction fee.
Don't forget the 20%+ Interest rates that they charge. Those seem really silly when the Bank Rate (set by central banks) is close to zero. Where is the Anti-trust investigation into them? They could include the spread used by FX dealers as well some of those are over 30%.
 
Factoring it out would confuse their customers and act against them. Because they would see different prices.

Now if the store showed their price + store fees that would be another matter.

One app.
Price: 9.99
App Store Service fee: 3.00
Total: 13.99

Another app.
Price: 19.99
App Store Service fee: 6.00
Total: 26.99

Click to buy.

This way the customer would be more informed.

Has far as I can tell, from what you have said, it would come down to the same. So why not?

The advantage to the dev is that prices would not be different from their regular price elsewhere. Actually this should be regulated in app stores.

Another is that has you have said, Apple customers love the store, so I bet they would not blink over the fee. So it would all be very transparent. If the Apple or the Dev rose rises or dropped fees the customer etc etc.

More, if the developer found it was not seeking enough he could always drop the price.

I bet that most people that come here don’t have their own business. Created and supported something unique, payed employees, face the issue of competition, investors ... ate tuna and beans from cans to sustain their Vision ... ...
Oh yes, we do but are also experienced enough to know that this situation is not unique at all. It is quite normal to pay 'middlemen' if you do a lot of deals and big deals then you may negotiate different rates, if you are not big and do not bring that much businesses then no special deals for you, if they want you bad you may get it free. No different across many businesses and many industries. And we haven't even begun to talk about the costs of getting onto government frameworks, big buying groups and so on.

Hmm, I'm starting to think now that it is you who may not have much experience in the cost of selling.
 
developer not just develop for apple so most fall in hype and fall.
Seriously? I think you missed the point being made. Apple and the App Store have changed the mobile developer landscape and made a lot of people very rich in the process. It still is the best platform to monetize your applications as an independent. Do you really want to go back to the days of limited apps and distribution via telecoms providers?
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Don't forget the 20%+ Interest rates that they charge. Those seem really silly when the Bank Rate (set by central banks) is close to zero. Where is the Anti-trust investigation into them? They could include the spread used by FX dealers as well some of those are over 30%.
Then don't take out credit if you don't like the interest rate ;) Pretty standard rate to be fair on credit cards for people with a less than good history...
 
Seriously? I think you missed the point being made. Apple and the App Store have changed the mobile developer landscape and made a lot of people very rich in the process. It still is the best platform to monetize your applications as an independent. Do you really want to go back to the days of limited apps and distribution via telecoms providers?
My main focus not as a mobile developer, as long as projects come in we do what our client wanted.
 
Oh yes, we do but are also experienced enough to know that this situation is not unique at all. It is quite normal to pay 'middlemen' if you do a lot of deals and big deals then you may negotiate different rates, if you are not big and do not bring that much businesses then no special deals for you, if they want you bad you may get it free. No different across many businesses and many industries. And we haven't even begun to talk about the costs of getting onto government frameworks, big buying groups and so on.

Hmm, I'm starting to think now that it is you who may not have much experience in the cost of selling.

Oh yes I do. I’m not comparing the cost of selling in abstract as you are. There are plenty of things in the Apple that aren’t normal.

The problem with your reasoning is that you are factoring ou the differences and comparing head to head what they have in common and diving conclusions with partial premises.

The App Store is mainly a global catalogue, share house and distributing system of apps. In this realm the cost to process a 3MB file is flat. Sales happen not due to the store but I marketing channels that are way beyond the store service, not to mention the value of the product
Still, as per my example, in one case, store would charge different processing fees for what is exact ele the same thing, a 3MB file, processed exactly the same way, using exactly the same resources.

Why?

Your idea that the cost of sales in this context is only 30% its plain wrong. It’s 30% for cataloguing, payment and distribution and misses everything else you have done for the customer actually click buy. Things that go way beyond what the App Store does.

Not to mention the value the app brings to Apples devices.

In fact iOS would be dead in the water without the App Store and vice versa. So what we have is one product, not two products. Otherwise it would be a toxic CDO.
 
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No, I’m just refuting the absurd notion that the 30% cut is the cost of operating an App Store. If that were the case then Visa and MasterCard would’ve gone under a long time ago since they support a worldwide payment network (a little more complex than the App Store) with 1-3% transaction fee.
I don’t think the Apple defenders are suggesting they need 30% to run the App Store but rather developers should be bowing down to the almighty Apple for creating an App Store for them and they should be grateful Apple only takes a 30% cut. In this universe it’s only the developers that need to be grateful. Almost like the iPhone is super successful in spite of developers not because of them.

John Gruber discussed this a bit on his podcast. He said Apple’s services story needs to be about things like Apple TV+ not wringing out more from developers via App Store fees.
 
Yes it is mobile but there isn’t much difference. I’m not sure your point, It’s still software, just a different platform, each come with their unique issues. There’s not a huge level of complexity difference.

your points about security isn’t valid since A rogue Mac app could easily steal data too, install malware etc without the user knowing.



Please focus on the fact we're talking mobile here.

There's a huge stonking difference.

Android apps, especially sideloaded ones, have a horrible reputation for stealing data or infecting devices.

If anyone thinks that a sideloaded Apple app would be any different then I've half a dozen bridges to flog them.
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Welcome to piracyville were Jane Developer spends time writing an excellent app and sells it for $1.99 then along comes Joe Evil who steals the code from a Jailbroken device and gives it away for free on the side market.

So, how does that help Jane?
 
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I don't see your point, Why does the customer need to be more informed? The price of the app is $x, that is all they need to know to then decide whether it is worth it to them. Customers don't care about who is getting what cut, they only want to know what it costing them.

Well, I am THEY! You see. You may be the store, but I am THEY, so the more information I have, the better I can make decisions. Thats the point.

Don’t understand why you want to hide the 30% from the customer.
 
Still, as per my example, in one case, store would charge different processing fees for what is exact ele the same thing, a 3MB file, processed exactly the same way, using exactly the same resources.

Why?
Price has nothing to do with COGS. People conflate cost and price quite often even though they are not correlated. Yes, you want a price above COGS But ultimately the market determines the price.

Price has everything to do with what a buyer will pay, and thatavries by a lot of factors, such as perceived value, price elasticity, etc. If a buyer appears to be willing to pay me more I happily charge them more. Developers appear to value the access to a user base that spends more than others; to me the real question is why other app stores can still charge 30% but deliver less value than Apple.
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Well, I am THEY! You see. You may be the store, but I am THEY, so the more information I have, the better I can make decisions. Thats the point.

Don’t understand why you want to hide the 30% from the customer.

Why? Continente doesn't post their markup, or even the IVA. You see a price and decide if the product is worth it. Same with the app store. Should the developer be required to breakdown their costs and margin as well? Per your aguement that info would help you make a decision as well.

To the app store point, if I see a developer now gets a 15% cut I'd expect a price cut since they are paying less. I assume most developers would want to see reviews. "One star. Developer rips us off by not dropping price when Apple lowers their cut."
 
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Seriously? I think you missed the point being made. Apple and the App Store have changed the mobile developer landscape and made a lot of people very rich in the process. It still is the best platform to monetize your applications as an independent. Do you really want to go back to the days of limited apps and distribution via telecoms providers?
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When the “30%” is discussed I hear the arguments about the shop front or credit card payment. What I don’t see is the API stuff, Apple don’t just host the store they also develop the API’s for devs to use, what’s you take on Apple in this regard vs other OS manufacturers? Better / the same. Genuinely just asking. Thanks
 
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Price has nothing to do with COGS. People conflate cost and price quite often even though they are not correlated. Yes, you want a price above COGS But ultimately the market determines the price.

True ... and markets also crash and someone pays for it.

The all point here is that considering that the App Store is in the only store available within market share that goes from 25% average and peaks and 60% in certain regions, covering billions of people, is it ok to have no other option than pay the asking price, give me %30 of your revenue in this market, if you wanna be a player in the mobile app space.

That the asking price is way above COGS of the App Store we already know.

On another related matter, is it ok for a business to enforce a 30% cut for goods and services not delivered based on some kind of protection or security mandate. None off the goods provided by say Netflix or Spotify as an example are distributed by the store but still they cannot sell their service through their the app, not even a link referring to payment of again a service not delivered by Apple . A different one, say you have a email service and charge X per month, again that service is not provided by the store, no infrastructure is being used for that matter apart from distributing the app.

You see, the App Store presents itself as a app distribution and sales system, that is all it does. But the rules cover charging for goods that are way beyond the app it self. To enforce those rules, Apple is creating a problem by not allowing them to sell a digital service in their app while offering a solution that charges 30% of their revenue. This does not sound ok ... maybe it is ... but does not sound.

Continente does not do that does it? Continente does not sell an Apple iPhone and than charge Apple for 30% revenue of their App Store does it? And yes, Continente provides warranty on iPhone beyond Apple provides (2 years, Apple only provide 1), and if you have a problem they still provide a customer service .... If Continente did what Apple does, some people could think there was some kind of extortion going on wouldn't they?

Who doesn't see anything uncommon here must be blind. Hey just because its uncommon it does not mean it is wrong but still .... don’t compare this business practice with retail. Its has somethings in common but quite a lot is uncommon. So uncommon that if the goods traded were analog with such a market share that modest probably it would be already in investigation a long time ago ..

The truth is that I don't think we ever saw a situation like this in the history of economics and business. So arguing that this situation is the same as everything else its pointless. It shares similarities but its not the same.

The digital blur once again.
 
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True ... and markets also crash and someone pays for it.

True. I'd never claim free markets are perfect; just better than other options.

The all point here is that considering that the App Store is in the only store available within market share that goes from 25% average and peaks and 60% in certain regions, covering billions of people, is it ok to have no other option than pay the asking price, give me %30 of your revenue in this market, if you wanna be a player in the mobile app space.

Well, if you look at worldwide iOS market share, the figures I've seen put it at ~25%, with North America ~50%, Europe ~30 and the rest of the world less than 20%; nowhere near close to a monopoly. The ultimate question ios "Is the consumer hurt?" I would argue the answer is no, the consumer, i.e. app purchaser, is not hurt as there is no evidence Apple sought to fix prices or that prices would drop if they reduced their cut. Do app prices drop after 1 year when the cut goes down? No, as seen by the lack of price drops after a year.


We make think 30% is too high but that's a different argument than it should be regulated to a lower level.

That the asking price is way above COGS of the App Store we already know.

and irrelevant to the argument.

On another related matter, is it ok for a business to enforce a 30% cut for goods and services not delivered based on some kind of protection or security mandate. None off the goods provided by say Netflix or Spotify as an example are distributed by the store but still they cannot sell their service through their the app, not even a link referring to payment of again a service not delivered by Apple . A different one, say you have a email service and charge X per month, again that service is not provided by the store, no infrastructure is being used for that matter apart from distributing the app.

If the distribution channels bring in enough customers to make a 30% cut acceptable to the developer then 30% ios ok; if not don't use the channel. It's really that simple.

You see, the App Store presents itself as a app distribution and sales system, that is all it does. But the rules cover charging for goods that are way beyond the app it self. To enforce those rules, Apple is creating a problem by not allowing them to sell a digital service in their app while offering a solution that charges 30% of their revenue. This does not sound ok ... maybe it is ... but does not sound.

It provides more than distribution, it provides a marketplace with security protocols, advertising, etc.
It may not sound good but is far from illegal, even if all they did was distribution; in fact they take less of a cut that retail app distribution.

Continente does not do that does it? Continente does not sell an Apple iPhone and than charge Apple for 30% revenue of their App Store does it? And yes, Continente provides warranty on iPhone beyond Apple provides (2 years, Apple only provide 1), and if you have a problem they still provide a customer service .... If Continente did what Apple does, some people could think there was some kind of extortion going on wouldn't they?

My point was they do not break down the price in store so you see what their markup is.

Who doesn't see anything uncommon here must be blind. Hey just because its uncommon it does not mean it is wrong but still .... don’t compare this business practice with retail. Its has somethings in common but quite a lot is uncommon. So uncommon that if the goods traded were analog with such a market share that modest probably it would be already in investigation a long time ago ..

The truth is that I don't think we ever saw a situation like this in the history of economics and business. So arguing that this situation is the same as everything else its pointless. It shares similarities but its not the same.

The digital blur once again.

I'm not convinced it is that different. The reach and mode of distribution may be, but the same principles apply.
 
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True. I'd never claim free markets are perfect; just better than other options.

Better does not mean it can't be improved. Especially issues regarding accountability and wealth distribution.

Well, if you look at worldwide iOS market share, the figures I've seen put it at ~25%, with North America ~50%, Europe ~30 and the rest of the world less than 20%; nowhere near close to a monopoly. The ultimate question ios "Is the consumer hurt?"

I did not clame it was. That is a very complex question that it's impossible to answer. Especially when the App Store cost its hidden inn the final cost of the product. A previous poster wrote that devs should off set the cost and rise the price .33 above they sell in all other stores ... So the solutions is betting against yourself.

and irrelevant to the argument.

True. Was answering to your COGS remark.

If the distribution channels bring in enough customers to make a 30% cut acceptable to the developer then 30% ios ok; if not don't use the channel. It's really that simple.

No it's not that simple. If a 1/4 and in some cases 1/2 of the world uses a infrastructure and your service is global and your service multiplatform the cut becomes irrelevant to you decision. The objective becomes serving your customer wherever they are, so this becomes more of a "tax" to access those users. Meaning, the App Store as the only Store in their devices is not bringing me customers but walling them.

A lot of great digital services around productivity I use, , don't have apps for iOS I suspect because of this. I can only access the web app. This hurts the in the device experience and the service because of some artificial measure. Some people might call it a "racket".

Has I've said, weather the customer is being hurt or not its a very complex question.

It provides more than distribution, it provides a marketplace with security protocols, advertising, etc.

If didn't provide security for users I wonder if iOS devices would be sold that many.
My point was they do not break down the price in store so you see what their markup is.

My point was that Continente, a retailer you used to drive comparisons, does not ask a share of the App Store revenue because they are a distribution channel for iPhone devices. In Continente you can also buy securely and also provide advertising. Your argument seams to be that Continente does not demand for it because they don't have 25% of marketshare, much less 50% in regions. Maybe you are right!

Comparing analog retail with digital retail is useless above a certain point. It needs a different policy.

I'm not convinced it is that different. The reach and mode of distribution may be, but the same principles apply.

Well it does seam that it is. Because don't think Continente would be allowed by regulators to do that. You may choose to ignore it, but it is a fact.
 
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Better does not mean it can't be improved. Especially issues regarding accountability and wealth distribution.

Sure, but wealth distribution is a dangerous road to go down. If you can say Apple only deserves a smaller share, why should a developer be able to charge what they do for a product whose cost of production once coded is essentially zero? Why not transfer wealth to the consumer and not from the consumer to the developer?


I did not clame it was. That is a very complex question that it's impossible to answer. Especially when the App Store cost its hidden inn the final cost of the product.

But the costs at each stage opf distribution are hidden in almost all sales. If you buy a book you do not get a breakdown of what the store got, the distributor, publisher, etc. You see a price and decide if it is worth it. Why should digital be different?

A previous poster wrote that devs should off set the cost and rise the price .33 above they sell in all other stores ... So the solutions is betting against yourself.

A developer should already factor Apple's cut into their price. They knb\ow how much money they need, or would like, to make, set a price so that they get that after the cut. Anecdotally, when I set a price I decide how much I want to get, knowing others will get a cut of the final amount is ultimately charged.

No it's not that simple. If a 1/4 and in some cases 1/2 of the world uses a infrastructure and your service is global and your service multiplatform the cut becomes irrelevant to you decision. The objective becomes serving your customer wherever they are, so this becomes more of a "tax" to access those users. Meaning, the App Store as the only Store in their devices is not bringing me customers but walling them.

Whether you call it a tax or not, it is simply a cost of doing business to access a customer base. If the cost is more than the value you receive then simply do not sell on thet marketplace. Apple created a marketplace, set the rules and yo have to decide if you wnat to paly by them, the same as any store.

A lot of great digital services around productivity I use, , don't have apps for iOS I suspect because of this. I can only access the web app. This hurts the in the device experience and the service because of some artificial measure. Some people might call it a "racket".

Clearly the developer has decided their is not enough return for the time it takes to develop an app; I suspect that is more do to the expectations of iOS apps for the price to be only a few Euros or Dollars and the developer realizes that , even if Apple takes a smaller cut, they simply do nit have the user base to generate enough revenue to compensate for the time it takes to develop and support an dedicated app.

Has I've said, weather the customer is being hurt or not its a very complex question.I guess we'll just have disagree on how much of a different policy is needed.

Fair enough. For me, the way to determine that is if the consumer is forced to pay more for an item under the system in palce. For apps, I think the answer is hey are not since the developers appear to be arguing nopt that they wnat to sell a $10 for %7 but can't because of Apple';s cut but that they want $8.5 of each sale. I suspect if regulators forced Apple to reduce their cut to 10% and said all app prcies must be reduced accordingly developers would start screaming about that. They simply want regulators to transfer more of the sale proceeds to them, not Apple, which helps the consumer in no way.

If didn't provide security for users I wonder if iOS devices would be sold that many.

True, and control over how apps may be installed is part of that.


My point was that Continente, a retailer you used to drive comparisons, does not ask a share of the App Store revenue because they are a distribution channel for iPhone devices. In Continente you can also buy securely and also provide advertising. Your argument seams to be that Continente does not demand for it because they don't have 25% of marketshare, much less 50% in regions. Maybe you are right!

My point was simply that Continente does not advertise their markup on each product as you were advocating forcing Apple to do for each app.

Comparing analog retail with digital retail is useless above a certain point. It needs a different policy.

While there are some differences, in general they are similar just use a different way to reach a customer, IMHO. I guess we'll just have disagree on how much of a different policy is needed.

In the end, if the EU and US forces Apple to lower their cut I do not think developers will use that as an opportunity to lower prices but simply keep the added revenue, like any company would. They are simply rent seeking, no different from Apple.
 
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Lol.. for this long page a lot of confusion.

A writer not a seller but the company is the seller and been charge 30% to market

A developer doesn't mean a one-man show but a company.
** some call a one-man show as a gig.

Apple Store is a rich quick platform.

Really wonder, I see only lesser than 10 real developers reply here. Other than that argue something really2 not related.
 
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Another reason the 30% cut need to go away is it has plagued the App Store with freemium apps.
If the app was a one time purchase and apple didn't take 30%, there wouldn't be some many "free" apps that ask for monthly totally not transparent in-app purchases that are sometimes incomprehensible like:
Premium 1: 1$
Premium 2: 3$
Premium 3: 10$
Premium 4: 30$
Premium 5: 100$.
with no explanation at all of what you are purchasing. I would get a LOT more apps, if they were a one-time purchase. Developers can create a new versions that needs to be bought again.
 
Another reason the 30% cut need to go away is it has plagued the App Store with freemium apps.
If the app was a one time purchase and apple didn't take 30%, there wouldn't be some many "free" apps that ask for monthly totally not transparent in-app purchases that are sometimes incomprehensible like:
Premium 1: 1$
Premium 2: 3$
Premium 3: 10$
Premium 4: 30$
Premium 5: 100$.
with no explanation at all of what you are purchasing. I would get a LOT more apps, if they were a one-time purchase. Developers can create a new versions that needs to be bought again.
100$ to cheap if software development . If cost 1 million to develop the app how many i need to sale? . The only roi know just in app purchase for gaming other then that, hardly hardly.
 
Sure, but wealth distribution is a dangerous road to go down.

I don’t really mean to go down that road. But it its being distributed every day. According to stats does not look like its balanced, especially in the US as far as the western world is concerned. How to balance it, don’t know,

Just put this into the equation considering the blank statement that its better than any other. It is as dangerous to assume that cannot be better.

Cut the costs at each stage opf distribution are hidden in almost all sales. If you buy a book you do not get a breakdown of what the store got, the distributor, publisher, etc. You see a price and decide if it is worth it. Why should digital be different?

In a serious conversation one cannot factor out the difference between analog and digital marketplace and justify every measure with what they have in common. The fact is that we are still learning bout the impact of the digital services. It doesn’t just speeds or make things more agile, it also concentrates.

A developer should already factor Apple's cut into their price. They know how much money they need, or would like, to make, set a price so that they get that after the cut. Anecdotally, when I set a price I decide how much I want to get, knowing others will get a cut of the final amount is ultimately charged.

This does not really address the point presented. Wether or not a Shop should be entitled to charge for goods or services not provided because it has billions of users. For instance, in the analog world, the cost of delivery is factored out. So the idea presented by me is not that original. In the digital space, the cost delivery seams to be residual in comparison so not worth factoring it out, but I guess it not residual because it seams that when we talk about the 30% it becomes an important argument to justify it.

Whether you call it a tax or not, it is simply a cost of doing business to access a customer base.

In some “underdeveloped” markets paying people "on the side to" get access to “places” is also just part of the cost of doing business. Meaning the cost of doing business by itself does not make it legit. There are rules. And rules change as we learn.

Fair enough. For me, the way to determine that is if the consumer is forced to pay more for an item under the system.

As I’ve said, factoring out the App Store cost in relationship to alternatives would be like betting against themselves in this market. More so because they charge less by other means. I think it would benefit both the customer, the store and the dev if schemes like this were not necessary for devs to minimize the cost of sales. So it dies hurt the customer.

The difficulty of these discussions is that when people drive comparison with the analog retail space and produce blank, usually cheery pick practices when the entire value chain should be compared. This along with blanket like statement about economics.

I honestly doupt a analog retailer could get away legally with certain things that seam to norm and accepted in the digital space. I mean, forcing a shared revenue on sales of goods or services not provided by the App Store based on the fact that it owns keys of access to the devs app it's a bit weird. A discussion that you totally avoided.

Here is another one. Apple is enticing developers to opt for a subscription model. The fact is that is a play against App Store customers. Why?

Well there is an increasing number of app with In App Purchases. Most of them I encounter a subscription is presented. That cost is not presented before download. Its just says "In app purchase ..." . Meaning it is not presented unless the customer downloads the app. Something that is required for instance to analog retailers, to have its cost tagged when presenting the product. A number of scams have already been identifies, all because of this practice of not presenting the In App prices upfront.

Apps that are not more than Markdown notepads with a subscription model jump from 3.99 euros for a one off buy to 3.99 euros a month, 48 euros a year, because one can than synch a bunch of files across devices.though a service they already payed for ... iCloud ... Note that 48 euros a year is half the price of a Office 365 subscription ... for a better notepad. This is not that good for customers, does not foster innovation, its lazy.

I think that this would end up hurting quality and competition, in the end the population served by the store. This measure seams to be in place to drive the prices up while introducing less transparency in the actual cost of acquisition. What is strange is this practice seams to be empowered by the store owner for the benefit of the customer and the quality of service of the store ... is it?

I think that 30% share over the devs revenue has something to do with it.

Cheers.
 
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I honestly doupt a analog retailer could get away legally with certain things that seam to norm and accepted in the digital space. I mean, forcing a shared revenue on sales of goods or services not provided by the App Store based on the fact that it owns keys of access to the devs app it's a bit weird. A discussion that you totally avoided.

Ok, here'smy thought on that: retailers and otehrs can and do just that. For example, if I sell a subscription of a vendor's product or introduce someone to a client I get acut of the fees charegd although I dop nothning beyond the intital sale/introduction. I would not be surprised if Walmart got a cut, on an omngoing basis, of every phone subscription they sold in their stores.

Why should digital be different?

Here is another one. Apple is enticing developers to opt for a subscription model. The fact is that is a play against App Store customers. Why?

Well there is an increasing number of app with In App Purchases. Most of them I encounter a subscription is presented. That cost is not presented before download. Its just says "In app purchase ..." . Meaning it is not presented unless the customer downloads the app. Something that is required for instance to analog retailers, to have its cost tagged when presenting the product. A number of scams have already been identifies, all because of this practice of not presenting the In App prices upfront.

I don't like the subscription model either, and there are a number of apps I have d/l'd but not bought because the subscription price was far higher than the value I get from the app. I do have a few subscription apps but only becasue I get significant value from them. I agree the app store could have more transparency on the actual price of an app and what features IAP add.

I also dislike developers who sell a lifetime license then introduce a "pro" version that incorporates features previously included in the base version, and of course the "lifetime" licesne is no longer valid. Then there is the switch to subscription scam... If you can't make money on one time sales, don't sell a lifetime license. Sell one and then charge for significant upgrades. I've paid to upgrade apps that are useful when they add features I can use.

It will be interesting to see how the app store evolves, especially as Apple seems to merge the iOS/iPADOS/OS X experiences. My guess is the smaller developrs will get squeezed and find it hard to stay afloat; a bad thing as many of my must have apps are from small developrs

I'd like to see Apple charge a tiered fee, with the % going down as sales increase. That lets them recoup a lot of their costs early on while rewarding developers of popular apps.. The could do something simliar with ssubscriptions, so if a company offered month to month the % goes down as customers renew.
 
For example, if I sell a subscription of a vendor's product or introduce someone to a client I get acut of the fees charegd although I dop nothning beyond the intital sale/introduction. I would not be surprised if Walmart got a cut, on an omngoing basis, of every phone subscription they sold in their stores.

Don't know about Wallmart but companies like Worten, Phone house and so on get fee for the sale upfront not a percentage of the monthly subscription. And in the case of Telcos I bet they these fee does not change much between a low cost packages or a premium package because I haven't yet seen a Retailer up selling me a telco package.

Maybe in the US they do that practice. But, hey as you know, Telco services in EU are lower than the US. ATT Internet for instance $50+TAX for just 100MB. At these prices maybe Wallmart does it. But in Portugal fo 38 Euros you get 500MB + 150 Channels of TV ... so no margins to full around with using money accumulating yet unproductive practices. At $50 for 100mbit connection and I've heard lots of complaints, I suppose they have margin to give 30% or morre to Wallmart. Don't know how that works in the US. Heym, but customers do seem do end up paying it ... of course. The idea that somehow the customer does not pay and its the dev is nonsensical.

Apple is able to do that because not only its a mandatory store for apps but also a mandatory broker for any digital subscription. Only recently, exceptions were made in using concepts such as "reader" apps and "non reader apps" that only make sense to Apple.

I also dislike developers who sell a lifetime license then introduce a "pro" version that incorporates features previously included in the base version, and of course the "lifetime" licesne is no longer valid

The practice of eternal upgrades rose mostly with the App Store. This is financially impossible to support by app devs that are not building viral chewing gum apps for 1.99. Before the eternal upgrade mantra, customers that wanted to upgrade their app to the next major version had to pay for the upgrade. The ones that did not want, don't pay and keep using the app. In my purchase list I have apps that aren't even on sale anymore. One of them that is very good, 7 years old or more, already works badly in iOS 13. I would gladly pay for the upgrade ... I can only imagine how much it would be now ... probably subscription based at at least 2.99 month mostly probably end up costing me 251,16 euros in 7 years. Well the app itself is not worth that much by any means.

My guess is the smaller developrs will get squeezed and find it hard to stay afloat; a bad thing as many of my must have apps are from small developrs

The entire App Store phenomena was built on the shoulders of small devs and some on Apple's. The big ones only joined when these small devs could potentially eat their lunch offering quality. The relationship is symbiotic even though Apple seams to come with a discourse that they alone did it. To counter this discourse we have what happened with Windows Store ... small devs simply did not adhere because MS was already conglomerate with an aggressive history in approaching the software business and would eat their lunch at any moment. Apple was not a conglomerate in 2009 neither that aggressive ... It was a company that build great new and innovative devices and OSs. Magical even.

That is the core problem behind this revenue sharing model.

Will see if the App Store will or not be mandatory in the new macOS 11 in ARM chips. At least for the payed apps and subscriptions. You see, you can always use the web apps so ...

PS: I use the App Store on the Mac when possible for apps. It more convenient to me. But I do not buy more or less apps because of it. So here is the proof that the App Store does not really bring more revenue for devs unless in some fictional world. It is more convenient and secure for user which is great and gives Apple more control along with $$.
 
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Don't know about Wallmart but companies like Worten, Phone house and so on get fee for the sale upfront not a percentage of the monthly subscription. And in the case of Telcos I bet they these fee does not change much between a low cost packages or a premium package because I haven't yet seen a Retailer up selling me a telco package.



Maybe in the US they do that practice. But, hey as you know, Telco services in EU are lower than the US. ATT Internet for instance $50+TAX for just 100MB. At these prices maybe Wallmart does it. But in Portugal fo 38 Euros you get 500MB + 150 Channels of TV ... so no margins to full around with using money accumulating yet unproductive practices. At $50 for 100mbit connection and I've heard lots of complaints, I suppose they have margin to give 30% or morre to Wallmart. Don't know how that works in the US. [/QUOTE]

Well, I pay about 38 Euros for 1GB fiber, so it's more expensive but 2x the speed. TV would add at least 20 more Euros, so we do pay more for that but personally, whether I'm watching US or Portuguese TV most channnels are crp anyway so even if I get 450+ for 2x the price is to high either way.

Quite frankly, if it wasn't for sports programming an HD antenna and something like a Silicondust box would work fine for a lot less money.

Oddly enough, the Telco is doing the exact same thing as Apple - taking a cut of the fee each month for delivering the channels alone and not developing content.

OTOH, phone service in the US tends to be cheaper - I can get unlimited data, text, voice, hotspot, in flight wifi and texting, unlimited texts and low speed data internationally plus Netflix for as little as 50 euros for one line and 33 for each for 4. I could not find a comperable plan with Orange, NOS, Vodaphone, etc. All of them seem to cap data, unless you want to spend 40 or 50 Euros a month and did not have an included hotspot. NOS seemed to come the closest but at 40 Euros limited the data speed. All seemed to require a contract, so I wind up just renting a sim card when I need high speed data.

If I want to pay less I can get unlimited talk/text and 3GB data cap for about 12 Euros in the US.

As a side note, has the EU finally eliminated roaming fees across the EU? Have they finally gotten rid of paying more to call a cell phone?

Heym, but customers do seem do end up paying it ... of course. The idea that somehow the customer does not pay and its the dev is nonsensical.

Customers always pay, if not a company goes out of business.

The practice of eternal upgrades rose mostly with the App Store. This is financially impossible to support by app devs that are not building viral chewing gum apps for 1.99.

That is, IMHO, more of the problem developers face. Users have gotten used to low prices for phone apps and that makes selling an app once unsustainable in the long run. You eventually reach the point where new revenue slows to. trickle as you reach saturation.

I don't think the app store is the root cause of apps going from 1 time purchases to subscriptions, rather it is the overall software market has matured to the point that upgrade sales no longer support ongoing costs for many apps; and thus a new revenue stream was needed to stay in business. Corporate buying habits facilitated that change as well. Phone apps, due to their lower price, may be more likely to do so simply because a developer would need to sell a lot on an ongoing basis to stay afloat if a phone app was their main revenue source.
 
I don't think the app store is the root cause of apps going from 1 time purchases to subscriptions, rather it is the overall software market has matured to the point that upgrade sales no longer support ongoing costs for many apps; and thus a new revenue stream was needed to stay in business. Corporate buying habits facilitated that change as well. Phone apps, due to their lower price, may be more likely to do so simply because a developer would need to sell a lot on an ongoing basis to stay afloat if a phone app was their main revenue source.

I'm not sure the App Store is purely the root cause but I don't think it's helped either. The App Store commodified apps in a way that cheapened them with Apple doing their part by reducing the price on a number of their apps. The App Store encourages an infinite update model and makes it hard to do paid upgrades for versions in a way that retains your existing App Store ratings and reviews. Paid upgrades require workarounds like bundling to give a discount to customers. Subscriptions allow you to tie that back to a single logical app, allow you to keep upgrading the app over time and getting money for it.

I'm personally a fan of the Agenda model which has a subscription which whilst active unlocks features but if not active you still get to use the app and anything that was active. I'm not sure if it'll work out for them in the long run but it takes away some of the negative of the software subscription where you rent the app so once you stop paying the rent the app stops working. This is great for the software houses but not so great for folk who are happy to stay on old versions that work for them and don't need to always be up to date. I've seen a few other apps try this model (paid updates for a time window) and I wish it'd take off more. It does require guarding code to make sure everything is tied to a date for version availability.
 
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