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Indeed. A good example is that T-Mobile's implementation of 3G technology is different from what is done by AT&T and incompatible with that of the iPhone's chipset. GSM is a set of standards.

T-Mobile uses a different frequency band than AT&T, but AFAIK the technology is the same. They also (mainly) use a different frequency band than AT&T for voice, but it became standard practice over time for GSM phones to support the 4 major world-wide bands (i.e. "quad-band" phones). In a couple of years I imagine that most smart phones will also support all of the major 3G frequencies in one handset as well.

I believe that GSM is a protocol, but it doesn't define the frequency spectrum on which it is used - the 4 standard bands arose simply due to the practicality of wanting to minimize the variations in a world of countries that had legacy users of various frequency spectrums, combined with wanting to allow multiple carriers to offer service in their own separate bands.
 
Why does the government have to meddle with what contract a company wants to put out? You are against government intervention, yet you want government to meddle with specific details of contracts?

I'm not dead-set against government meddling. I think it is limiting, but I think it has its place. I think the current situation here on a number of fronts (ETF scheduling silliness, sim-locking, exclusivity) could have been regulated by simple market pressure, but that requires education and choices. Sadly, in practice this never happened and it is hard for it to have any effect at this point because the industry drove the sheep into a corner paddock and locked the gate behind them.

One of the problems with letting market pressure solve this is that the industry has, almost by design, a limited playing field. Market pressure is great for resolving issues, but only if there are a lot of alternatives and/or if there is a constant threat of a new player coming along if the existing players leave themselves open. I don't think that describes the cell phone industry very well so perhaps a little mandated sanity couldn't hurt.

And, if there is any legislation that would come about, I would hope it would be more along the lines of "you must offer the customers an alternative choice" rather than "you must offer them these terms". For example, "if you lock the phones you sell under subsidy (or even without subsidy) then you must also allow a customer to buy the same phone directly from the distributor unlocked and use it on your network" doesn't prevent them from offering subsidies or locking the phones that go with their contracts. An unlocked phone walking into their store looking for service could hardly be considered a threat to their business model. Most providers would have no trouble at all with this (Verizon is the only company I've seen that ever refused to provide service for a phone they didn't sell with a lock on it, the GSM providers are all happy to provide you with service on your GSM phone bought elsewhere). What it may prevent is providers forcing manufacturers to only distribute a given phone in a locked form through them. It may also, due to the alternative of getting an unlocked version from another source, encourage the providers to sell them unlocked if the customer pays full price and possibly even eventually to just ditch the locks as an unnecessary hassle since they really would have no more purpose.

I would hate to see legislation that dictated "you must sell all phones unlocked and use pro-rated ETF's of a maximum of $X". I'd rather see that encouraged through market pressure in a market where the alternative of getting the unlocked phone caused the consumer to see true value-loss in the one they get that is locked. Right now all phones are locked so the consumer doesn't see it as a feature that provides or removes value.

The providers might play games with "we'll sell the unlocked version for $1M", but if they must allow a customer to buy the phone from the manufacturer directly then they would simply be saying "you can get an unlocked phone, but we don't really want to be your salesman in that case".

Okay, let's play the assumption game. Let's say, based on your proposal, that the government decide to meddle with contracts, with pro-rated ETF and such.

I talked about pro-rated ETFs, but I thought I was being clear that this was just what I thought the industry should do if they really had the customer's interests at heart. In other words, I think that non-pro-rated ETFs are stupid, but I don't think they should be outlawed. Any attempts to justify them on the industry's part are simply evidence that they are trying to swindle us.

Then what? Carriers would still be locking their phones. In the end, contracts are still there, and phones are still locked. Sure, you can leave early, pay pro-rated ETF, but then what? The phone is still locked. You can buy a non-subsidized phone without contract, but it's provider locked (just like today). I don't see change there.

I'd rather see legislation that forced availability of unlocked phones somehow. For example, providers are not allowed to dictate to manufacturers that they can't sell an unlocked version direct to consumers, or dictate the price on that. And, optionally, but not necessarily, if they sell a full price phone (full price defined by the MSRP, not by them) then they would not be allowed to simlock it. In other words, they are not allowed to prevent hardware from getting to a customer's hands in an unlocked form, but they don't necessarily have to be the agent that gets it to them. If they take steps via contract to prevent an alternative source for the hardware then they are engaging in anti-competitive practices.

I do agree about forcing people going into contract with their own phone is not fair. However, there's already an alternative for that today, pre-paid. I see that you think some unfair contract/ETF practices being the problem. Although they are a problem by themselves, to me simlocking is the bigger problem.

Unfortunately I don't think pre-paid can be used with smart phones and the pre-paid prices are way higher than the contract prices. I agree that sim-locking is the primary enemy, though I'd like to see a requirement to provide non-contract service that is on par with the contract service (perhaps with a requirement that it cannot cost more than the subsidy-recouping contract prices).

I have no problems with the current contracts/ETF themselves, as they are well disclosed to consumers. Consumers can choose to sign it or not. However, provider-locked phones are deceptive and not clearly disclosed. AT&T prohibit the use of the device on other networks, even after it's technically mine. It's an obvious anti-competitive practice and deceptions. If the DoJ want to scrutinize the market, that is the obvious sticking thumb.

The only issue I have with "consumers can choose to sign it or not" is that the choices are limited and the limitation is not arbitrary - it's a direct result with the nature of this industry. In other words, all things being equal I think everything should be left to market pressure. But in artificially constrained markets like the cell phone industry I do think that limits on anti-competitive practices are reasonable to a point.

Consumer education? Who's going to do that? The carriers? Sony Ericsson did this a while back, and it didn't do anything. US consumers have been brainwashed that locked phones are the norm, and they have to pay big $$$ for unlocked phones. In a not-so-free market, and where simlocking is the established standard, we need a bigger force to change it.

For one thing, a requirement that they offer the "choice B" that, if chosen by a significant portion of consumers, would lead us out of the mess through ordinary market pressure would be a step in the right "education" direction. Currently, if you want a data plan then there really are no "unshackled" options for service. And, if you want a voice plan with any national coverage for a reasonable airtime price you also don't really have any alternatives. Pre-paid offers an important billing alternative for some customers, but it doesn't offer a competitive "market pressure to change" alternative in its current form.
 
What's wrong with that? ETF and the terms of the contract are clearly disclosed when you sign it.

there is nothing wrong with the notion of an ETF. but if you are told that it is to repay the carriers investment in your device and they want to charge you more than that, well that's just wrong.

As for pro-rating, it's been introduced already without any need of regulation.

not exactly. Sprint and T-Mobile were both sued over the whole ETF gouging issues and lost, big time. Verizon and Cingular/ATT volunteered to follow the courts orders because they were basically told if they didn't, they could be hit with class action suits for the same issues. or so was the issue in California. I remember because I was with Sprint and left to go to ATT cause of crappy service and was jacked on my ETF, which I got back most of thanks to the case settlement.
 
Government is supposed to regulate to help the little guys, not the gadget geeks. How effective is a completely unlocked cell phone in Singapore for the last 10 years when you couldn't get your numbers ported until last year, and when you finally can get your numbers ported --- you are facing $800 in ETF.
:rolleyes: How does number-porting and ETF have anything to do with how effective simlocking law is? Fact is, the phones are not locked. That means, the law works. If not, then the phones would be locked, which is not the case. You seem to have plenty of knowledge and have valid points, but I think in the end you're always providing irrelevant arguments about what my point originally is.

I didn't say simlocking is okay because laws that prohibits simlocking is old --- I said that Singapore's rationale for the prohibitation of simlocking came from outdated European policy papers that even Europeans themselves have no longer even follow. There are legitimate reasons why Europeans no longer follow their own old policy papers.
Well, yet you keep repeating yourself how the simlocking law came from outdated European policy that was no longer followed. Fine, it came from an outdated policy. Heck, some thinks the US constitution is outdated. Point being? I already stated despite the policy being outdated, nonetheless the market in those countries are shaped to accept unlocked phones as the norm, while in the US, provider-locking is considered the norm.

I only stated Singapore as an example. I never said that the US should copy what Singapore does. It is merely an example where subsidized phones are sold unlocked, contrary to the popular beliefs that unlocked phones have to be full priced. You, on the other hand, showed obvious dislikes against Singapore. Well, I don't care about that or your chewing gum law. We're talking about the US DoJ. Just answer this, why are you against simlocking? Show me the logic behind simlocking.
 
there is nothing wrong with the notion of an ETF. but if you are told that it is to repay the carriers investment in your device and they want to charge you more than that, well that's just wrong.

not exactly. Sprint and T-Mobile were both sued over the whole ETF gouging issues and lost, big time. Verizon and Cingular/ATT volunteered to follow the courts orders because they were basically told if they didn't, they could be hit with class action suits for the same issues. or so was the issue in California. I remember because I was with Sprint and left to go to ATT cause of crappy service and was jacked on my ETF, which I got back most of thanks to the case settlement.
Remember, regardless of how fair/unfair the ETF is, it's already disclosed upfront before you sign the contract. Sure, there are some unfair ETF policy, but the amount itself is never hidden nor a secret, unlike unlocking policies.

Thanks for pointing the lawsuit. However, that's a lawsuit. It's not the same as government doing a direct intervention. If we see a class-action lawsuit against the carriers for locking their phones, I'm all for it.
 
What it may prevent is providers forcing manufacturers to only distribute a given phone in a locked form through them. It may also, due to the alternative of getting an unlocked version from another source, encourage the providers to sell them unlocked if the customer pays full price and possibly even eventually to just ditch the locks as an unnecessary hassle since they really would have no more purpose.

I'd rather see legislation that forced availability of unlocked phones somehow. For example, providers are not allowed to dictate to manufacturers that they can't sell an unlocked version direct to consumers, or dictate the price on that. And, optionally, but not necessarily, if they sell a full price phone (full price defined by the MSRP, not by them) then they would not be allowed to simlock it. In other words, they are not allowed to prevent hardware from getting to a customer's hands in an unlocked form, but they don't necessarily have to be the agent that gets it to them. If they take steps via contract to prevent an alternative source for the hardware then they are engaging in anti-competitive practices.

Unfortunately I don't think pre-paid can be used with smart phones and the pre-paid prices are way higher than the contract prices. I agree that sim-locking is the primary enemy, though I'd like to see a requirement to provide non-contract service that is on par with the contract service (perhaps with a requirement that it cannot cost more than the subsidy-recouping contract prices).
Good points. I'm just going to counter on some things.
Currently, I don't think the carriers are forcing manufactures to only sell their phones thru them. Nokia and Sony Ericsson are readily selling their phones unlocked. However, carriers do force the phones to be locked if the manufacture want the carriers to "carry" them.
Again, I don't see why subsidized phone should be locked. The carrier already retains the customer via contract and ETF. I don't see a logic behind provider locking at all, regardless of subsidy status. That is still anti-competitive, especially with the secretive and uneven "unlocking" policies. Why can't we just abandon the notion of provider locking in the first place?

Pre-paid can be used with smart phones. I'm using pre-paid on my Nokia E51, no problems surfing the web and running google maps on AT&T's 3G. Sure, the rate might be more expensive than contracted plans, but those rates are clearly disclosed, and I'm completely aware of them. Besides, there are services that would help in reducing cost (eg. SMS via Google voice, using twitter app to tweet instead of via SMS, using email instead of SMS/MMS, etc).

We agree that simlocking is the primary issue, thus my point if the DoJ wanted to scrutinize something, that should be the first one.
 
:rolleyes: How does number-porting and ETF have anything to do with how effective simlocking law is? Fact is, the phones are not locked. That means, the law works. If not, then the phones would be locked, which is not the case. You seem to have plenty of knowledge and have valid points, but I think in the end you're always providing irrelevant arguments about what my point originally is.

Well, yet you keep repeating yourself how the simlocking law came from outdated European policy that was no longer followed. Fine, it came from an outdated policy. Heck, some thinks the US constitution is outdated. Point being? I already stated despite the policy being outdated, nonetheless the market in those countries are shaped to accept unlocked phones as the norm, while in the US, provider-locking is considered the norm.

I only stated Singapore as an example. I never said that the US should copy what Singapore does. It is merely an example where subsidized phones are sold unlocked, contrary to the popular beliefs that unlocked phones have to be full priced. You, on the other hand, showed obvious dislikes against Singapore. Well, I don't care about that or your chewing gum law. We're talking about the US DoJ. Just answer this, why are you against simlocking? Show me the logic behind simlocking.

Yes, the phone is unlocked, but migrating to the new carrier meant for a new telephone number (in Singapore until last year) and cost a king's ransom in ETF to get out of contract --- and all you got is the right to use your 2 year old phone at your new carrier's network.

I would prefer the other way around --- you pay a cheap pro-rated ETF to get out of contract, you keep your current telephone number and your new carrier gives you a brand new zero dollar phone. This is the silicon valley you are talking about --- where CPU speed doubles every 18 months. A brand new zero dollar phone is going to be a better than your 2 year old $600-800 unbrand/unlocked cell phone.

I am talking about old policy papers that NOBODY in the world has adopted. The US Constitution may be old, but a lot of countries still adopt their principles. And for other countries who adopted the unlocked phone as the norm --- what --- you think that they are doing this because they care about consumers? They are doing this because these regulators are siding with their incumbant carriers on the MAJOR issues so they give the consumer an illusion of doing something constructive. You "won" a minor issue of simlocking and lost the war against the carriers on major issues.

I never said that I am for simlocking. I said that that the average consumers can get much better consumer benefit by concentrating their political goodwill on other important but mundane stuff. It's about priorities. You said that simlocking is the number 1 issue that they should deal with first and I am saying that simlocking is like number 57.
 
Thanks for pointing the lawsuit. However, that's a lawsuit. It's not the same as government doing a direct intervention.

That's why we prefer the US government to actually step in and give us a direct intervention on standardizing ETF rules nationally.
 
Again, I don't see why subsidized phone should be locked. The carrier already retains the customer via contract and ETF. I don't see a logic behind provider locking at all, regardless of subsidy status.

Yet every country in the world except Singapore have subsidized phones that are simlocked. And Singapre is a really bad example to begin with --- with their very very high ETF, their consumer unfriendly free tv business model where the average consumer would have a hard time comparing prices...
 
I would prefer the other way around --- you pay a cheap pro-rated ETF to get out of contract, you keep your current telephone number and your new carrier gives you a brand new zero dollar phone. This is the silicon valley you are talking about --- where CPU speed doubles every 18 months. A brand new zero dollar phone is going to be a better than your 2 year old $600-800 unbrand/unlocked cell phone.
So, you're arguing that technology advances pretty quick that 2 year old phones should just be dumped. Yet you are arguing how number portability is so important? Going around Silicon Valley, most people already have multiple accounts with multiple carriers. Most already/will utilize services like google voice, VOIP, and social networking for getting in touch with others. Phone number portability is not that critical anymore. On the other hand, if I finish my 2 year contract, then technically the phone is mine, and I should be able to sell it, give to my family members, use it on other carriers etc without having to deal with the original carrier. Not the case with locked phones. What's the point of getting out of contract early with pro-rated ETF anyway if the phone itself is useless outside the carrier?

I never said that I am for simlocking.
:rolleyes: You have pretty much argued against me about no-simlocking in all of your posts with additional run around the topics filled your hatred towards Singapore, which is not even relevant. Either that, or you're just trolling (which I unfortunately fell into) with run around comments about ETF/contracts/TVs/chewing gum that are argued against my main point of wanting unlocked phones.

To summarize, sounds like you prefer simlocking like it is now in the pretense that most people are not aware by it. You just want the government to force pro-rated ETF, so geeks like you (or insider traders/ebay cellphone resellers) can take advantage of getting out of contracts with a subsidized phone and maximizing the secretive "unlocking policy" (which by the way, you have not shown me whether AT&T will always unlock their phones or not). :rolleyes:
 
So, you're arguing that technology advances pretty quick that 2 year old phones should just be dumped. Yet you are arguing how number portability is so important? Going around Silicon Valley, most people already have multiple accounts with multiple carriers. Most already/will utilize services like google voice, VOIP, and social networking for getting in touch with others. Phone number portability is not that critical anymore. On the other hand, if I finish my 2 year contract, then technically the phone is mine, and I should be able to sell it, give to my family members, use it on other carriers etc without having to deal with the original carrier. Not the case with locked phones. What's the point of getting out of contract early with pro-rated ETF anyway if the phone itself is useless outside the carrier?

:rolleyes: You have pretty much argued against me about no-simlocking in all of your posts with additional run around the topics filled your hatred towards Singapore, which is not even relevant. Either that, or you're just trolling (which I unfortunately fell into) with run around comments about ETF/contracts/TVs/chewing gum that are argued against my main point of wanting unlocked phones.

To summarize, sounds like you prefer simlocking like it is now in the pretense that most people are not aware by it. You just want the government to force pro-rated ETF, so geeks like you (or insider traders/ebay cellphone resellers) can take advantage of getting out of contracts with a subsidized phone and maximizing the secretive "unlocking policy" (which by the way, you have not shown me whether AT&T will always unlock their phones or not). :rolleyes:

Vonage is a total bust. Ebay overpaid to buy Skype.

Technically, you DO own the cellphone --- you just have to sell them to someone who wants to have a phone that is simlocked to a particular cell phone carrier. You can put it in a blender and see if it blends --- AT&T is not going to try to stop you from destroying the cell phone.

The point is that the new carrier is going to give you a free phone, so there is no need to use your 2 year old phone.

I prefer having the option of carrier providing FREE simlocking to 99% of their cell phone models vs. having the government imposing some sort of idiotic law that has proven to be ineffective worldwide.

Somehow --- the US having the second best iphone data plan in the G7, the US having the third fastest 3G iphone speed in the whole world according to the wired.com survey --- somehow there are something massively wrong with that? I don't buy it a single bit.
 
Verizon limits exclusivity so rural carriers can get phones

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet...

Verizon gave a present today to the small (less than 500,000 customers each) rural CDMA carriers, by promising that they would allow access to even exclusive phones, after six months.

This is something that the Rural Carriers Association has been after, and a major reason why Congress was looking into exclusivity.

Now if only ATT would do the same for the GSM carriers.

It doesn't affect most of us, but those who live in rural areas have been without decent smarpthone choices for a long time.
 
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