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Thanks I think you just proved my point. The pro gay lobby on here does not tolerate or respect contrary viewpoints, which makes them the bigots IMO.

Can you bring up any movement in the gay community that protests to make heterosexual marriage illegal? Or where gays try to discriminate against anyone else?

Sure, many people in the LGBT community don't agree with Christianity, but who cares? They don't go around Denying Christians equal rights and protections.

Christians DO go around trying to deny rights to people in the LGBT community, and they go around America denying rights to homosexuals, and women, and try to deny rights to people of other faiths, and try to push their views in our pledge and in our money, and want to waste more tax payer money put the 10 commandments outside government buildings that don't have them. Hell, I would like to use taxpayer money to remove them.

Also, let me ask you this.

If gay marriage was made completely legal in every state. How would it negatively effect your life besides not being in line with your choice of faith?
 
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Honestly have you ever considered moving to a state that doesn't treat you like a second class citizen? You shouldn't have to, but unfortunately that's currently the case. NJ is only one state over from you, gay adoption was explicitly legal here even before gay marriage. And we have a flourishing gay community here that took Asbury Park from the nasty ditch of a city that is once was and transformed it into a prime tourist spot on the Jersey Shore. You might be happier here.

I definitely plan on moving. Once I get more experience in my current job (I just landed a job as a web app developer ironically since I never programmed anything web-appy before in my life) so once I get some time with that under my belt I'll be looking for sure.
 
Honestly have you ever considered moving to a state that doesn't treat you like a second class citizen? You shouldn't have to, but unfortunately that's currently the case. NJ is only one state over from you, gay adoption was explicitly legal here even before gay marriage. And we have a flourishing gay community here that took Asbury Park from the nasty ditch of a city that is once was and transformed it into a prime tourist spot on the Jersey Shore. You might be happier here.

I'll be honest. I've put off moving, mostly because my grandparents are in their 80's and 90's, my paternal gramma is to the point where extended driving (she refuses to fly) is out of the question. As much as I enjoy flying, I don't want to be a 4 hour flight from my family when the inevitable passing of a grandparent happens.

I'm in line to inherit my maternal grandparents' home when they pass. I'm not sure yet if I want to keep it, rent it or outright sell it.

My current girlfriend is from Connecticut, she wants me to move to her, but at the same time, I love Columbus, I love living a stone's throw from the Ohio State campus. Last time I visited her (September for my birthday), she took me to Boston, and I must say, I may look to moving there when I'm no longer needed around here.

I just feel like I'm being selfish wanting to move away from my family just to find a place that welcomes gay people. My family is loving and supportive, and I feel like it'd be ****** for me to make them travel so much to see me.
 
I'll be honest. I've put off moving, mostly because my grandparents are in their 80's and 90's, my paternal gramma is to the point where extended driving (she refuses to fly) is out of the question. As much as I enjoy flying, I don't want to be a 4 hour flight from my family when the inevitable passing of a grandparent happens.

I'm in line to inherit my maternal grandparents' home when they pass. I'm not sure yet if I want to keep it, rent it or outright sell it.

My current girlfriend is from Connecticut, she wants me to move to her, but at the same time, I love Columbus, I love living a stone's throw from the Ohio State campus. Last time I visited her (September for my birthday), she took me to Boston, and I must say, I may look to moving there when I'm no longer needed around here.

I just feel like I'm being selfish wanting to move away from my family just to find a place that welcomes gay people. My family is loving and supportive, and I feel like it'd be ****** for me to make them travel so much to see me.
It sucks that you currently are forced to choose between living with your family and living in a place that gives you equal rights. It's seriously twisted. There's currently a case pending in Ohio about gay marriage, so maybe soon that won't be the case for you.
 
Your problem isn't with marriage, but with the fact that marriage entitles people to pay fewer taxes than an unmarried couple. It's a perfectly legitimate complaint, and it's an interesting issue.

It's not ONLY that "marriage" entitles people to pay less in taxes (which is certainly true). It's also that unmarried individuals and couples are forced to subsidize the benefits received by the "married."

For example, when an employer is compelled to provide insurance coverage for "married" spouses, this reduces payroll and salaries across the board, even for those who are single or "unmarried." Which is not to say that employers are always forced to do it, but sometimes they are.

As another example, "married" spouses who have never worked a day in their lives are eligible to draw social security and medicare benefits beginning the day they turn 65, whereas "unmarried" individuals who have contributed nothing, get nothing. And who pays for that additional coverage for "married" people who don't work and who don't contribute to the system? People who choose not to participate in the marriage scam.
Why are married couples taxed less than single individuals (or individuals whose relationship isn't formally declared with the government)? My guess is that it's a factor to encourage and help with child-rearing.... Should the tax break only be given once a couple has at least one child? It might alter the incentive behind the tax break a bit, but it's an interesting change to consider.
It's always hazardous to subsidize people to pay for things that are mostly of their own doing (e.g. having kids). The risk is, that you end up incentivizing behavior that is more or less irresponsible (e.g. having kids to get welfare).

However, this *certainly* makes a lot more sense than the idiocy of mandating benefits solely based on "marital status" or whatever private nonsense the government wishes to invoke.

I think socially we ought to be way beyond the point of "sit on a guys c*ck, get special perks and benefits courtesy of the government." So yes, now we have yet another special interest group trying to find a way to hang off the proverbial teat... go away, please.

(The other interesting consideration is that whenever "gay marriage" and tax break complaints come up, you don't hear any complaints about childless heterosexual marriages...)
I think this is because, for a great many heterosexual couples, in the past one always assumed this was because of an infertility issue (which may or may not have been the case), and the woman couldn't find a job. Point taken though -- it makes no sense, and needs to be changed.
 
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It's not ONLY that "marriage" entitles people to pay less in taxes (which is certainly true). It's also that unmarried individuals and couples are forced to subsidize the benefits received by the "married."

For example, when an employer is compelled to provide insurance coverage for "married" spouses, this reduces payroll and salaries across the board, even for those who are single or "unmarried." Which is not to say that employers are always forced to do it, but sometimes they are.

As another example, "married" spouses who have never worked a day in their lives are eligible to draw social security and medicare benefits beginning the day they turn 65, whereas "unmarried" individuals who have contributed nothing, get nothing. And who pays for that additional coverage for "married" people who don't work and who don't contribute to the system? People who choose not to participate in the marriage scam.

It's always hazardous to subsidize people to pay for things that are mostly of their own doing (e.g. having kids). The risk is, is that you end up incentivizing behavior that is more or less irresponsible (e.g. having kids to get welfare).

However, this *certainly* makes a lot more sense than the idiocy of mandating benefits solely based on "marital status" or whatever private nonsense the government wishes to invoke.

I think socially we ought to be way beyond the point of "sit on a guys c*ck, get special perks and benefits courtesy of the government." So yes, now we have yet another special interest group trying to find a way to hang off the proverbial teat... go away, please.


I think this is because, for a great many heterosexual couples, in the past one always assumed this was because of an infertility issue (which may or may not have been the case), and the woman couldn't find a job. Point taken though -- it makes no sense, and needs to be changed.

You're not a very smart person at all. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt many times but you're nothing more than a hateful person. I bet if you had rights stripped from you and were STILL forced to pay equal taxes you'd be throwing a fit.
 
It sucks that you currently are forced to choose between living with your family and living in a place that gives you equal rights. It's seriously twisted. There's currently a case pending in Ohio about gay marriage, so maybe soon that won't be the case for you.

My fingers are crossed.


:)
 
I just feel like I'm being selfish wanting to move away from my family just to find a place that welcomes gay people. My family is loving and supportive, and I feel like it'd be ****** for me to make them travel so much to see me.

This story is why when things involve rights (like marriage), the whole “move to a different state” and the differing laws don’t always work out. For many people, moving out of state is a very difficult thing to do if there are barriers like family involved or other ties that you may have. People shouldn’t have to go to another state to get access to certain things like rights.

I have a friend that is a lesbian who had to go down to Iowa to get married even though she is a native Minnesotan who had friends and family who lived in the state (her spouse was Minnesotan as well). This was before gay marriage was legal in Minnesota and I recall at the time that they were very sad that they had to go out of their way to get married in another state just to live in another state where their marriage may not have been recognized on a state or federal level. They didn’t want to move out of state. They were happy living in Minnesota already. They just wanted to be treated like any other couple who were in a committed relationship. Thankfully the laws changed in Minnesota, but all she really wanted was to be treated the same as anybody else. Nobody should feel like an outsider and feel unwelcome. It’s sad to me that this still happens.
 
Example? Source?

The source I have is a friend that worked at Disney, and a few other inside employees that have been denied benefits for their opposite sex partner based upon the fact that they were not married, yet Disney has a well known policy in place that allows same sex partners to receive benefits under their plan. Since they have never been sued to my knowledge, I can't site quotable sources and don't know of anyone suing them based upon this fact. So does this mean that it didn't happen or doesn't exist, as it seems here that the prevailing thought is no verifiable documentation, then it didn't exist.

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The western world is slowly but surely moving to equal rights across the boards. The rights that you say that say you are losing, were in fact UNFAIR advantages. The old ideas that certain groups enjoyed certain privileges has been deemed by society at large as discrimination.

I don't disagree with you on this viewpoint, but would like to know why some of the things I am losing, you are labeling as unfair advantages, but when another group are denied se of these same things, they are then re-termed and viewed as rights? Why when one group has them they are deemed as an unfair advantage but become a denied right when others pursue the same things.
 
So does this mean that it didn't happen or doesn't exist, as it seems here that the prevailing thought is no verifiable documentation, then it didn't exist.

The prevailing thought (at least or me) is that claims of fact need to be backed by evidence.

I'm not going to believe the claim—especially when that claim involves a hot-button political issue—just because someone said it happened.

PRSI has proven time and time again that people get suckered by rumors that they want to believe are true, but in the end are baseless. Without evidence, why shouldn't I believe that this is another case of that?
 
The instant you compared homosexuality to incest and/or polygamy (the second of which I say go for it anyway), is the instant you lost me.

You really need to read better and open your mind. When anyone says anything that is contrary to your agenda, then you shut them down and try to force your bias and hatred on them.

I never compared homosexuality to anything. I just stated a contrary truth and fact to your statement that heterosexuals could always marry the ones they love. The argument presented is that homosexuals marrying is not impeding on any other person's rights or freedoms, as they are just two consenting adults living their lives. Since they are consenting adults should they not be allowed the same rights as heterosexuals? I was just stating that your blanket statement about all heterosexuals is not true and cited two examples to illustrate where your point is wrong. I am not saying it is right or wrong (and their are laws against this just as there are against homosexuality), but how is it that two consenting adults from the same family (and according to states the immediacy of family varies as to who can marry, 1st cousins might not be able to but 2nd can) can be not allowed to marry?

In both of my examples, consenting adults are involved, so how are they infringing upon rights of others? Are you not judging them and hating and bigoted against them just as you say others are against homosexuals because you don't agree with their rights and desires? Incest by definition can be two non blood relatives from an adoptive house hold. They are not from the same parents and share the same relatives only through adoption, so what is their marriage hurting anyone or the same if multiple people want to marry? If a government shouldn't be allowed to define a marriage as a single man and woman solely, then why should they be allowed to limit the number of parties involved?
 
The prevailing thought (at least or me) is that claims of fact need to be backed by evidence.

I'm not going to believe the claim—especially when that claim involves a hot-button political issue—just because someone said it happened.

PRSI has proven time and time again that people get suckered by rumors that they want to believe are true, but in the end are baseless. Without evidence, why shouldn't I believe that this is another case of that?

This is not the first time we have done this. We believed and taught for years that Pluto was a planet. Now we have decided it no longer is why? Because a group got together and decided to change it based upon their "new" findings? Before, the we saw it and it was there finding were enough to classify it as a planet but now that is not good enough why?

You and several others here have also done this by blindly insulting and labeling several as bigoted and filled with hatred based upon nothing verifiable or a set standard or criteria but based solely upon your perception of their statements on here. I have seen it called out seveRal times that someone "hates" a group based upon their few statements even when they have stated the contrary and said they don't hate but don't agree. Since their terminology doesn't meet your hypothetical standard you are labeling them as bigoted and full of hatred. Is this not the same thing by using only here say and conjecture based upon your notion of the persons perceived intentions by you and others and not some scientific standard or verified and documented action???

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Source please.

Thank you.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest

I hate to use Wikipedia as a source but it has been used several times in this thread as proof against religion and for proof of homosexual marriage throughout history. Also why is it acceptable to shoot down the teachings within the bible as nothing more than a story or fairy tale, but then to quote it is a defense of their point. It is either complete bunk or a believable source, it can't only be valid when it fits one's agenda (and this goes for both sides of the argument).
 
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This is not the first time we have done this. We believed and taught for years that Pluto was a planet. Now we have decided it no longer is why? Because a group got together and decided to change it based upon their "new" findings? Before, the we saw it and it was there finding were enough to classify it as a planet but now that is not good enough why?

You haven't even pointed at a light in the sky and said, "That's a new planet. I call it Pluto."

Instead, you've said, "I know a guy who claims he found a new planet, and he calls it Pluto."

We've just asked you to point it out in the sky.

Until you do, I'm not likely to blindly accept that it exists.

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You and several others here have also done this by blindly insulting and labeling several as bigoted ...

Actually, I've gone to some lengths attempting to give people the opportunity to clarify their points in order to determine whether they are bigots or not.

Do I need to point to those specific posts?
 
I love how incest comes up anytime gay marriage is mentioned. They're not even remotely the same thing.

Also incest is frowned upon because it significantly increases the chance of genetic mutation. Look no further than Amish communities on this one. My neighbors growing up all had kids who were nearly blind and two that had disfigurements. This is why the "pay outsiders for sex" isn't a myth like most people think it is.
 
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest

I hate to use Wikipedia as a source but it has been used several times in this thread as proof against religion and for proof of homosexual marriage throughout history. Also why is it acceptable to shoot down the teachings within the bible as nothing more than a story or fairy tale, but then to quote it is a defense of their point. It is either complete bunk or a believable source, it can't only be valid when it fits one's agenda (and this goes for both sides of the argument).

While you may not realize this, you're trying to deflect this onto another issue. This is not a case of transitive properties. Someone who wants that legalized would need to argue it on its own merits, none of which have been brought up. It annoys me when politicians do stuff like that. They are treating their voter base like morons when they come up with such scenarios.

Edit: I am not calling you or anyone else a moron. I'm saying the politicians who use this line of reasoning are treating you guys that way. Take a second to consider the logic behind the statement.
 
I love how incest comes up anytime gay marriage is mentioned. They're not even remotely the same thing.

Also incest is frowned upon because it significantly increases the chance of genetic mutation. Look no further than Amish communities on this one. My neighbors growing up all had kids who were nearly blind and two that had disfigurements. This is why the "pay outsiders for sex" isn't a myth like most people think it is.

Well, given how you've challenged the notion that "marriage" should be between a man and a woman, or for procreation, that argument falls completely flat.

And indeed, why should it be necessary to have sex or have kids just to be "married?"

Finally, if you're already talking two women or two men, they can't have kids with each other anyway. So, by your own reasoning, at minimum incestuous "marriages" between same sex individuals, or for that matter, a man and a woman, where one is post-menopause or has undergone sterilization, should be "endorsed by the state" and handed out marriage certificates as well.

Whoopdee doo.

If you have a problem with it, that makes you a bigot.

This just underscores the point, the state shouldn't be involved in marriage period. (As I've already stated.)

But as long as they are giving out free and nonsensical perks, why shouldn't a man marry his father and reap his inheritance without the federal government getting its grubby hands to take out a chunk?

It's all a bunch of baloney and yet another ripoff for individuals, that's why.
 
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It seems to me that you're asking for both: you want the freedom to establish your relationship outside of the rules of the state, while at the same time asking the state to recognize your relation despite it's lack of legal, accepted establishment.

Reminds me of arguments that taxes should be optional. But at least there, it's payment you will make for service you might not take. Here is more like a use fee, you give them work (registering) and they give you work (telling the world that you registered).


Fix it right, or don't fix it at all.

It's a perfectly worthy ideal. Unfortunately, reality is quite messy. If we had to wait until the right solution for just about anything was figured out (never mind agreed upon), nothing collective would ever get done. So we work in increments, fixing one thing, one (often agonizing) step at a time.


2) Heterosexual couples that do not produce children are still given tax benefits.

Point #2 is the more interesting one to consider, in my opinion. Should the tax break only be given once a couple has at least one child?...

Last I checked, children do generate tax breaks, listed by the IRS as dependents - each additional 'paying' that much more. The marriage benefit is just one of a series of family incentives provided by the tax code. I'm a recipient of the marriage benefit. But I'm also a renter and subsidize home owners, single and married, children and not. We have a national vision of the American Dream and push everyone toward it.

We could have entire threads on the subject of tax incentives and our efforts to influence behavior, business and individual.


I definitely plan on moving. Once I get more experience in my current job (I just landed a job as a web app developer ironically since I never programmed anything web-appy before in my life) so once I get some time with that under my belt I'll be looking for sure.

So NJ enjoys a competitive advantage by allowing GM, and those who don't enjoy a brain drain.


This just underscores the point, the state shouldn't be involved in marriage period. (As I've already stated.)

Getting government out of the 'business' of marriage, would require eliminating the public benefits of marriage. As a practical matter, I can't see enough people willing to gives those up.
 
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I'm sure some of us are wondering why it's considered "progressive" (the code word for liberal) to support anti-discrimination in the land of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"? No Libertarians, it's not "free to discriminate"! ;)

Learn your history friend.
 
I'm sure some of us are wondering why it's considered "progressive" (the code word for liberal) to support anti-discrimination in the land of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"? No Libertarians, it's not "free to discriminate"! ;)

Learn your history friend.

Do you have anything to say that states otherwise? in short, the onus is on you to prove him wrong.

BL.
 
This just underscores the point, the state shouldn't be involved in marriage period. (As I've already stated.)

Yet the state is involved with marriage and there's little to no chance that will change—at least in our lifetimes.

So while you're waving your wrists at the injustice of it all you might want look up another member who occasionally posts here in PRSI, named NewishMacGuy.

He thinks that all taxes are forced theft and that the government shouldn't have anything to do with our lives.

You two have something in common. You might have a lot to talk about.
 
Yet the state is involved with marriage and there's little to no chance that will change—at least in our lifetimes

I think births, marriages and deaths have been recorded here by the state and/or the church since before non Native American's even lived in America.

The idea that that piece of "red tape" would be removed is absurd.
 
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Because you want to not hire/fire them just on the basis of being gay. You don't want them to get married at the government level, etc.

This comes back to my original argument. I own a private business. I don't want the state telling me who I can and can't employ. It's as simple as that for me.
 
If gay marriage was made completely legal in every state. How would it negatively effect your life besides not being in line with your choice of faith?

I wouldn't affect my life. I just don't agree with it that's all. If it's made legal fine then go ahead I won't campaign against it. Just so long as gay people realise that not everybody agrees with it. If they tried to force religions to allow gay marriage in church or wherever against their will or their teachings then I would campaign against that.
 
This comes back to my original argument. I own a private business. I don't want the state telling me who I can and can't employ. It's as simple as that for me.

They already do that with other anti-discrimination laws. And in the UK you have been unable to discriminate on grounds of sexuality for a decade.
 
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