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especially the larger companies wondering why Apple will not even let them use their own payment processing. We can argue all we want about the 30% being unreasonable or not. But it would all be moot if Apple also allowed developers to choose to use their own payment processing.
We know very well the reason for this.

A store can only earn money when it gets to collect money from goods being sold on its premises. Imagine running a shop, but customers could simply walk in, scan a QR code on the product (and the payment is credited directly into the manufacturer's bank account), and walk out with it. No money enters the shop owner's pocket at all.

How do you expect the store to stay afloat?
 
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We know very well the reason for this.

A store can only earn money when it gets to collect money from goods being sold on its premises. Imagine running a shop, but customers could simply walk in, scan a QR code on the product (and the payment is credited directly into the manufacturer's bank account), and walk out with it. No money enters the shop owner's pocket at all.

How do you expect the store to stay afloat?

That would make sense of the App Store was a store. In effect is indeed the only means iOS users have to install and update apps on their smartphone of choice. That is what is leveraging the entire business model of the App Store, nothing else

This is unlike to the businesses you compare with where if you don’t like the price or you can’t find the good or service you need, with a simple pair of shoes and legs you just walk on to the next door you know … competition. There is no competition between device centric App Stores, they are Meta Store.

Who is “we”? Oh, conditioning, conditioning, conditioning … hehehe.

PS: I like this metaphor … comparing the iPhone with a pair of shoes. One day might be the case … wait for the smart shoes … an customer union lead by Apple just right after. People will say … I remember the before the App Store … it was a mess … no one able to move around safely in the middle of the retail savagery.
 
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Maybe we are talking about different things. That the only way I see this comment.

Any cost related to the delivery of the product is reflected into the price, unless parts are being subsidized. What you seam to be saying is that is not the case … never seen that happen in my 40 years.
Every app could cost $0 with no IAP. Amazon, Epic and Netflix could remove their apps. The App Store would continue with Apple making $0 for the apps, except for the dev fees and hardware sales to support the apps.
 
[…]

What I think we are seeing is a general dissastification overall by developers, especially the larger companies wondering why Apple will not even let them use their own payment processing. We can argue all we want about the 30% being unreasonable or not. But it would all be moot if Apple also allowed developers to choose to use their own payment processing.

[…]
Yep, can’t blame devs for wanting to cut out Apple. But you also can’t blame Apple for wanting to process the payment.

As you yourself said lots of rhetoric (from people you claim who don’t know up from down) to sift through.
 
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Every app could cost $0 with no IAP. Amazon, Epic and Netflix could remove their apps. The App Store would continue with Apple making $0 for the apps, except for the dev fees and hardware sales to support the apps.

1. Every apps cost the development costs. If the App does not generate value to sustain than it being supplied at a loss, its being subsidized. Nothing costs 0 in business.

2. Epic and Netflix need to reach their customers. If the one in two American use the iPhone on their pocket it would be reason would say some are users of the iPhone, potentially half. It would vê crazy not to be there, especially when Apple itself competes with them (which is a case of another law suit by the way if we combined the power the App Store have over devs together with Apple also competing with them).

3. In case of the removing apps, of course the App Store would be earning 0 from them. What would you want, to keeping on earning?

Cheers.
 
It’s still a store. (Or maybe that’s the legal challenge, what is a store?)

Don’t know what is the legal challenge. I simply know something how they operate and their origins. Stores sell goods that store and either supply or distribute. It’s not defined only through the act of billing, that is simply accounting.

Case in case, the App Store just stores and distributes apps. It does not store or distributes say, Netflix streams, eBook neither Webinars, yet it charges a tariff of 30% of such sales.

How does this work? Well it works because its the only way iPhone user have to install and update their apps, which is what this device, the App Store does at its core.

Now, you may than argue that the App Store does not sell neither of these goods provided as example, but it sells the ability for users install and update their apps on one hand (1) and then on the other its sells app hosting and distribution (2). For these two services it charges 30% of the price of whatever is being supplied by an App, yet this does not come out in the billing statements.

What it comes out an in in-app-purchase billing statement is say, that the App Store sold some audio, video, or subscription to the service, yet, again it does not store, supplies or distributes such things … hence it may be considered abusive use of (1). This is not at all the industry practice.

The in-app-purchase device is the thing in question of course.
 
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1. Every apps cost the development costs. If the App does not generate value to sustain than it being supplied at a loss, its being subsidized. Nothing costs 0 in business.
Businesses all over the globe, as a general statement, lose money. Are they being subsidized also?
2. Epic and Netflix need to reach their customers. If the one in two American use the iPhone on their pocket it would be reason would say some are users of the iPhone, potentially half. It would vê crazy not to be there, especially when Apple itself competes with them (which is a case of another law suit by the way if we combined the power the App Store have over devs together with Apple also competing with them).
Netflix can reach their customers without an app on iOS.
3. In case of the removing apps, of course the App Store would be earning 0 from them. What would you want, to keeping on earning?

Cheers.
Just pointing to a scenario that could occur.
 
Businesses all over the globe, as a general statement, lose money. Are they being subsidized also?

As i remember I was replying to your hypothesis that every app could cost 0. Just reminding that no app costs 0. I think you just got sidetracked again. But still to answer this one, on they go bankrupt.



Netflix can reach their customers without an app on iOS.

Yes. That is true end?

Just pointing to a scenario that could occur.

Oh. Ok.

Just in case my initial observation …

Maybe instead of having forcing 30% tariffs on value added businesses, you know apps and digital services that actually people want to spend money, on … have everyone paying for the App Store resources they use, including the likes of Facebook, Spotify, TikTok, Microsoft … for App Store things like app hosting, review and distribution. Maybe than people find out that instead of 30% or free to businesses that don‘t actually need it could rather be close to 5% or less for everyone … and the App Store could still have 79B in revenue.

I know this could be scandal for some devs. What paying for hosting and distributing my app that I’m offering for free? Well, that is what Investors are for right? Instead of having the other minions paying for that privilege. Yes because aren’t the big businesses paying for it I suspect … no I’m quite sure aren’t, Apple certainly is not. What a novel idea.
 
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As i remember I was replying to your hypothesis that every app could cost 0. Just reminding that no app costs 0. I think you just got sidetracked again. But still to answer this one, on they go bankrupt.





Yes. That is true end?



Oh. Ok.

Just in case my initial observation …

Maybe instead of having forcing 30% tariffs on value added businesses, you know apps and digital services that actually people want to spend money, on … have everyone paying for the App Store resources they use, including the likes of Facebook, Spotify, TikTok, Microsoft … for App Store things like app hosting, review and distribution. Maybe than people find out that instead of 30% or free to businesses that don‘t actually need it could rather be close to 5% or less for everyone … and the App Store could still have 79B in revenue.

I know this could be scandal for some devs. What paying for hosting and distributing my app that I’m offering for free? Well, that is what Investors are for right? Instead of having the other minions paying for that privilege. Yes because aren’t the big businesses paying for it I suspect … no I’m quite sure aren’t, Apple certainly is not. What a novel idea.
Cost to the end user, not to Apple. Every app could cost $0 to the end-consumer. Apple earns no revenue and it costs to host an app; as we know.

It wouldn’t alter the dynamic of the App Store.
 
Cost to the end user, not to Apple. Every app could cost $0 to the end-consumer. Apple earns no revenue and it costs to host an app; as we know.

It always cost to the end user man. You know that. You always pay for what use. The idea that you don’t is precisely whats model is dangerous. Its removes you ability to understand how much you a paying for the “free” stuff.
 
It always cost to the end user man. You know that. You always pay for what use. The idea that you don’t is precisely whats model is dangerous. Its removes you ability to understand how much you a paying for the “free” stuff.
I don't agree. While no dev wants to host an app for $0, there are apps that do just that, with the hopes of the consumer buying additional functionality for additional $$$. I'm not discussing netflix, epic, or other apps of that ilk, but the small business independent developer.
 
I don't agree. While no dev wants to host an app for $0, there are apps that do just that, with the hopes of the consumer buying additional functionality for additional $$$. I'm not discussing netflix, epic, or other apps of that ilk, but the small business independent developer.

You are forgetting the dynamics of the entire system. In your hypothesis, if every app and digital service was offered free, that would translate to the value of the device, iPhone … that is, its price would go up. Now, the money would not end to devs, but those of course gave it free anyway so nothing to complain about. Of course the economics of this would be unsustainable, for everyone but Apple.

As for your example now, what you describe is the Freemium model. The Freemium model is mandatory for apps using the App Store in-app-purchase/subscription device. That is, you need to offer a free tier.

There are apps indeed that are fundamentally ”free”, case in case Facebook, Tiktok … “Free” because their business model is around targeting you with Ads. That is you make yourself available to be an Ad Target in exchange of using the app, asking you for data make you a more efficient target (turn you into a better money converter).

Anyway, you seam to be the most reasonable person I discussed this matter on the forum, even though we come to totally different perspectives and do not convert to the same point. I’m spending far too much time on this forum, so to close this matter as far as I’m concerned …

I’m not a supporter of Epics cause. As far as I’m concerned when it comes to games, Apple is not doing anything different than console gaming does. A game is an App and that is what the App Store as far as I’m concerned is set out to sell. I’m looking at other genres.

Still, there are some things that here that go beyond the scope of the App itself as an object, buying digital content, digital information: say costumes, new maps, access to special weapons, bitcoins, whatever digital information and form. A bit like the iPhone, you add apps without changing the device, your not adding new features to the device itself, its original capabilities allow for that.

This where the game space touches with other spaces in the digital industry.

I don’t think Apple should be allowed to charge for digital content, hosts or distributes nothing of that, much like say Best Buy does not charge Apple for whatever its aided to the iPhones it sells, if not accessories, it stores and distributes nothing of that. Imagine Best Buy as the only Store in America. This should be regulated IMHO, not just for Apple but for all App Stores.

One example between millions, take an App like Tinder. Fundamentally it transacts information (Digital content). The App itself is basic in functionality, minimal in size (low host and distribution hosting costs unlike a game). Yet its #1 on the Top Grossing Apps. Take the demands they imposed on Stadia and xCloud … these businesses do not serve Apps in any form, neither what they serve is anywhere served by the App Store

This examples shows the limitation of the App Store approach to shape the secure digital market place of the future.

The crux of the matter is that with the current paradigm used by these App Stores, inspired by retail stores, yet with totally different dynamics, makes it very difficult if not impossible to put into practice the difference between an app and the information it serves and transacts. How can the current digital store distinguish between content / service and the apps they store and sell in order to charge only for the App?

It requires a change in paradigm. And there is one already in use in other fields in the industry. Take for instance iCloud. The iCloud stores your files. The files itself might be worth anything, a billion, but their are yours not Apple’s to transact. Same with devs and their apps. So charge for hosting / storage and distribution resources. Take the Azure or Amazon Cloud. They technically host entire business, they charge for hosting / resources no what the business transacts, even if they could would not be acceptable … so why is it acceptable in an environment such as the App Store? Is it because it has Store in the middle? You see cloud services also have catalogues.

This same paradigm can be applied to App Stores to solve the problem of defining the boundaries of what the infrastructure provides and what the App / Business provides as value . Instead of charging based on what the App does, charges for the stores resources it consumes. This can be applied in parallel with the current model. Say, companies that need to use the entire App Store stack, ok proceed as now. I can see a lot of small companies finding value in the current model, especially the universal billing aspect of it. But companies, that made up to a maturity level where its cost out weight the benefits of the entire App Store stack in their context, than provide other App Store plans at their disposal.

The current App Stores business model is totally arcane, with the added problem of charging for goods, case in case digital content / not apps, that do not store, distribute or sell. But how can it in do differently in the current paradigm? Take the totally stupid policy of … “look if you sell an one to one digital meeting/class, we don’t charge, but if you sell a one to many, or many to many we do” … It’s totally arbitrary if not unffair based on this single ability: It’s the only way users have to install and update apps, 50% device market share in the US. It stiffs innovation, and motivate look alike products.

Now don’t think regulators should dictate of course how Apple should solve this problem, neither am I. But they can set up policies / regulations that tech companies operating as App Stores need to comply. Is up to them/us to reflect and find solutions compliant solution … heck innovate the App Store field out the inspiration of traditional retail store practices with a travesty, and create something adapted to the fluid reality of the digital landscape.
 
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You are forgetting the dynamics of the entire system. In your hypothesis, if every app and digital service was offered free, that would translate to the value of the device, iPhone … that is, its price would go up. Now, the money would not end to devs, but those of course gave it free anyway so nothing to complain about. Of course the economics of this would be unsustainable, for everyone but Apple.

As for your example now, what you describe is the Freemium model. The Freemium model is mandatory for apps using the App Store in-app-purchase/subscription device. That is, you need to offer a free tier.

There are apps indeed that are fundamentally ”free”, case in case Facebook, Tiktok … “Free” because their business model is around targeting you with Ads. That is you make yourself available to be an Ad Target in exchange of using the app, asking you for data make you a more efficient target (turn you into a better money converter).

Anyway, you seam to be the most reasonable person I discussed this matter on the forum, even though we come to totally different perspectives and do not convert to the same point. I’m spending to much time on this forum, so to close this matter as far as I’m concerned …

I’m not a supporter of Epics cause. As far as I’m concerned when it comes to games, Apple is not doing anything different than console gaming does. A game is an App and that is what the App Store as far as I’m concerned is set out to sell. I’m looking at other genres.

Still, there are some things that here that go beyond the scope of the App itself as an object, buying digital content, digital information: say costumes, new maps, access to special weapons, bitcoins, whatever digital information and form. A bit like the iPhone, you add apps without changing the device, your not adding new features to the device itself, its original capabilities allow for that.

This where the game space touches with other spaces in the digital industry.

I don’t think Apple should not be allowed to charge for digital content, hosts or distributes nothing of that, much like say Best Buy does not charge Apple for whatever its aided to the iPhones it sells, if not accessories, it stores and distributes nothing of that. Imagine Best Buy as the only Store in America. This should be regulated IMHO, not just for Apple but for all App Stores.

One in millions, take an App like Tinder. Fundamentally it transacts information (Digital content). The App itself is basic in functionality, minimal in size (low host and distribution hosting costs unlike a game). Yet its #1 on the Top Grossing Apps. Take the demands they imposed on Stadia and xCloud … these businesses do not serve Apps in any form, neither what they serve is anywhere served by the App Store

This examples shows the limitation of the App Store approach to shape the secure digital market place of the future.

The crux of the matter is that with the current paradigm used by these App Store, inspired by retail stores, yet with totally different dynamics, makes it very difficult if not impossible to put into practice the difference between an app and the information it serves and transacts. How can the current digital store distinguish between content / service and the apps they store and sell in order to charge only for the App?

It requires a change in paradigm. And there is one already in use in other fields in the industry. Take for instance iCloud. The iCloud stores your files. The files itself might be worth anything, a billion, but their are yours not Apple’s to transact. Same with devs and their apps. So charge for hosting / storage and distribution resources. Take the Azure or Amazon Cloud. They technically host entire business, they charge for hosting / resources no what the business transacts, even if they could would not be acceptable … so why is it acceptable in an environment such as the App Store? Is it because it has Store in the middle? You see cloud services also have catalogues.

So paradigm can be applied to App Stores to solve the problem of defining the boundaries of what the infrastructure provides and what the App / Business provides as value . Instead of charging based on what the App does, charges for the stores resources it consumes. This can be applied in parallel with the current model. Say, companies that need to use the entire App Store stack, ok proceed as now. I can see a lot of small companies finding value in the current model, especially the universal billing aspect of it. But companies, that made up to a maturity level where its cost out weight the benefits of the entire App Stack stack in their context, than provide other App Store at their disposal.

The current App Stores business model is totally arcane, with the added problem of charging for goods, case in case digital content / not apps, that do not store, distribute or sell. But how can it in do differently in the current paradigm? Take the totally stupid policy of … “look if you sell an one to one digital meeting/class, we don’t charge, but if you sell a one to many, or many to many we do” … It’s totally arbitrary if not unffair based on this single ability: It’s the only way users have to install and update apps, 50% device market share in the US. It stiffs innovation, and motivate look alike products.

Now don’t think regulators should dictate of course how Apple should solve this problem, neither am I. But they can set up policies / regulations that tech companies operating as App Stores need to comply. Is up to them/us to reflect and find solutions compliant solution … heck innovate the App Store field out the inspiration of traditional retail store practices with a travesty, and create something adapted to the fluid reality of the digital landscape.
Well written post.

I am against government interference in private industry. The breakup of AT&T is a great example as many years later consumers have not really reaped the full benefit of the government mandated break-up, imo.

Whatever the issues with the app store are, let the market speak for itself. The app store has remained fundamentally unchanged for many years and I have come to the conclusion, if there was an issue with the management, monopoly, anti-trust etc, it would have been addressed years ago, therefore the government hates success and power in private corporations.

I am also not convinced the app store needs any regulation beyond what is on the books. But it's good we get to discuss our views in a polite and respectful way.
 
Whatever the issues with the app store are, let the market speak for itself.

Agree,

The market is speaking itself out now through law suits and complaints all over the world. From big budget companies to small ones. Not just against Apple App Store, but Google Play too.

There are several channels through which the market can speak.

One may be inclined to reduce the channel through which the market speaks to “voting through the wallet”. I consider that a very limited POV to “market speaking”.

I am not in favor of breaking up Apple or Google at all. That is really a last resort … no one wants a reset. They should learn from Microsoft cases back in the 00s. But if Apple proceeds this path such conclusion is all down to them. Regulators and judges aren’t really the best suited … Neither is the consumer through “wallet voting”. The current situation of fines over fines does not solve anything … are simply warnings.

These problems are best sorted through dialog and action between actors. But looking at current App Store changes and Apple gradually more aggressive anti competitive actions, check the examples I have, that such period has past. Hopefully not.

Cheers.
 
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Agree,

The market is speaking itself out now through law suits and complaints all over the world. From big budget companies to small ones.

There are several channels through which the market can speak.

One may be inclined to reduce the channel through which the market speaks to “voting through the wallet”. I consider that a very limited POV to “market speaking”.

Cheers.
Can't say to stop lawsuits; that's an unrealistic expectation and that is one way of addressing an issue of any kind.
 
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That would be for a judge to decide, if it comes to it. As it was in the case when Apple colluded in price-fixing ebooks (2012).
How are those two the same though? Price fixing is collusion of members of particular market in such a way at a price that distorts the market - rather than competitors independently determining or competing on price?
With profit, saying that X level of profit is excessive would be bizarre, I don't imagine a judge would want to surely even dare make a judgement on saying you are making too great a percentage profit or £$ too high, in and of itself.

If the accusation or statement were that it was monopoly, distorting market forces, limiting consumer choice - with the end result being profit, then fair enough, but again, they would look at means to solve the issue of the extent of power exerted over the market. Otherwise we would end up in a situation whereby any industry or market where company makes X% or $X profit, getting caught out under this idea of one making "too much".
 
How are those two the same though? Price fixing is collusion of members of particular market in such a way at a price that distorts the market - rather than competitors independently determining or competing on price?
With profit, saying that X level of profit is excessive would be bizarre, I don't imagine a judge would want to surely even dare make a judgement on saying you are making too great a percentage profit or prices too high, in an of itself.

If the accusation or statement were that it was monopoly, distorting market forces, limiting consumer choice - with the end result being profit, then fair enough, but again, they would look at means to solve the issue of the extent of power exerted over the market. Otherwise we would end up in a situation whereby any industry or market where company makes X% or $X profit, getting caught out under this idea of one making "too much".

The thing that is the same is a judge deciding an appropriate level of punishment for breaking competition law if that turns out to be the case. For example, the EU routinely fines (or has threatened to fine) tech giants a percentage of their turnover when they break the law.
 
The thing that is the same is a judge deciding an appropriate level of punishment for breaking competition law if that turns out to be the case. For example, the EU routinely fines (or has threatened to fine) tech giants a percentage of their turnover when they break the law.
Yes….but judgment isn’t being made about profit margin or amount of profit. That’s designed to ensure that fines are proportionate to the size of the company- not for being naughty for have above 19% profit margin ( or insert random amount) or because a company made more than £€$11.2687 (again insert random amount)billion in profit.
And they impose that for breaking competition law , not because 19% profit is okay and 19.1% is unacceptable

I am talking about the main article quoting that primary thing Apple as doing as UNLAWFULLY excessive profit.
 
Yes….but judgment isn’t being made about profit margin or amount of profit. That’s designed to ensure that fines are proportionate to the size of the company- not for being naughty for have above 19% profit margin ( or insert random amount) or because a company made more than £€$11.2687 (again insert random amount)billion in profit.
And they impose that for breaking competition law , not because 19% profit is okay and 19.1% is unacceptable

I am talking about the main article quoting that primary thing Apple as doing as UNLAWFULLY excessive profit.
Where is unlawfully excess profit defined? It's not like Apple is loan sharking. However, I guess the profit could be deemed unlawful if apple is found to be running afoul of anti-trust regulations. I guess we will see.
 
Yes….but judgment isn’t being made about profit margin or amount of profit. That’s designed to ensure that fines are proportionate to the size of the company- not for being naughty for have above 19% profit margin ( or insert random amount) or because a company made more than £€$11.2687 (again insert random amount)billion in profit.
And they impose that for breaking competition law , not because 19% profit is okay and 19.1% is unacceptable

I am talking about the main article quoting that primary thing Apple as doing as UNLAWFULLY excessive profit.

The allegation is that Apple’s 30% commission on app sales is an abuse of dominance and unlawful. That, ultimately, it is customers who have paid the price for this burden.

By forcing users to use Apple’s own payment processing system, this generates excessive levels of profit. That is, making money at customer’s expense as a consequence of breaking competition law.

Let me spell it out for you. Let’s say Apple charged 500% commission, five times the amount paid to developers. And let’s say they did so because they could. And the reason they could was because they deliberately blocked other providers from selling the same software or payment method. That 500% commission, profits on the sale, would be obtained illegally. The actual number is not really that relevant. Breaching competition law in this way yields profits unfairly and illegally.

I have not ventured an opinion on whether or not the case has merit, but these are the legal arguments.

You really need to back off wondering what illegal means, and await the outcome of the trial.
 
The allegation is that Apple’s 30% commission on app sales is an abuse of dominance and unlawful. That, ultimately, it is customers who have paid the price for this burden.
What I don’t understand is that why is 30% OK in the year 2008 but suddenly in the year 2021 it has become unlawful? What has changed?
 
What I don’t understand is that why is 30% OK in the year 2008 but suddenly in the year 2021 it has become unlawful? What has changed?

Competition.

On 2008, the App Store was so new that there was virtually zero competition in the App Store. You could release any app, and there would be a ton of people buying it, and you would make a lot of money even after paying Apple your 30% cut.

Today, the App Store is overcrowded with apps, people have more choices than ever, and it’s harder than ever for your app to get noticed. So even though there are more iPhone users than ever, intense competition has driven app prices down, and it doesn’t mean you may get many downloads if your app can’t stand out.

So what is the only option left to grow your revenue? You attack the 30% cut.
 
Competition.

On 2008, the App Store was so new that there was virtually zero competition in the App Store. You could release any app, and there would be a ton of people buying it, and you would make a lot of money even after paying Apple your 30% cut.

Today, the App Store is overcrowded with apps, people have more choices than ever, and it’s harder than ever for your app to get noticed. So even though there are more iPhone users than ever, intense competition has driven app prices down, and it doesn’t mean you may get many downloads if your app can’t stand out.

So what is the only option left to grow your revenue? You attack the 30% cut.
If that’s the case wouldn’t lowering the 30% cut result in an even worst situation?

Competition is supposed to encourage innovation, not laziness. When everyone is subjected to the same 30% the developer then have to innovate to get business. Saying that it is unlawful now when it’s ok before doesn’t make sense when the law hasn’t changed.
 
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