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The way US suddenly said never mind, after seriously pushing for a similar backdoor, means something changed.
Your comment reminded me of something so far back I don't see it mentioned anymore, from the Bill Clinton presidency years, called Carnivore. Here's an ACLU link to an Oct. 2000 article on it. From that:

"The Carnivore system -- essentially a computer running specialized software -- is attached to an Internet Service Provider's network and searches through all of its customers' electronic messages (including e-mail, web addresses and instant messages) looking for the messages of a person suspected of a crime.

The biased expert panel is part of what was to be an independent process grudgingly agreed to by the Justice Department to determine whether Carnivore violates the Fourth Amendment's protections against unreasonable searches and seizures."

That sounds worse than the UK's 'back door' approach! And it was before the 9-11 terrorist attacks on American soil, with a Democrat President.

I’m amazed that some company hasn’t seen this as a business opportunity. I’ve mentioned a few times on here how I think that some sort of HomePod x Time Capsule device that primarily backs everything up locally (and optionally uses the cloud for redundancy) would be a big seller. Chuck a 128gb SSD into the HomePod Mini for people on as budget and then a larger 2Tb into the regular HomePod.
I've been researching NAS options lately, as I've never had one. A common feature discussed is that of having your own private cloud. And such a cloud would be platform agnostic (i.e.: not tired to Apple's 'walled garden' ecosystem, in case you ever migrated to a different platform).

This may be a stupid question, but is there any way of replicating the services that iCloud provides but at home for the consumer? Some kind of local NAS providing iCloud-like backup services, or have I completely missed the point??
Not only is it not a stupid question, it's a key question that needs more attention. We need for Apple's device syncing (e.g.: iMessages across your Mac, iPhone and iPad) to be made compatible with 3rd party NAS private cloud systems and end the iCloud exclusivity currently required for them to work.

That will threaten Apple's bottom line, so expect it to take a lot of grass roots rabble rousing and effort. Maybe if competing messaging platforms offer such operability and become serious competitors on this basis, Apple's hand might be forced?

I wish we could count on the goodness of Tim Cook's heart to give it to us, and I neither know the guy nor am I his judge, but if I had to guess, I'm thinking we need to push...hard.

I really hope they do. This law feels like it has been made out of fear by lawmakers who don't understand technology.
There's an alternative explanation. What I'm about to describe to you was explained to me by someone else on the online forum Quora. It's understandable, passes the 'common sense' test and less sinister. The issue in question was why do authorities want more power? That can be the power of information (e.g.: wire-tapping, surveillance) or other forms. Is it a machiavellian plot by the Illuminati to conquer the world and control us all?

Or is it the convenience of (?lazy?) people?

His point was that most people have jobs, those jobs have responsibilities, and the burden of doing the job and executing those responsibilities gets onerous. With some jobs, actually doing everything you're technically supposed to do 'by the book' borders on impossible. Power is the ability to effect change in the universe, to get things done. You need power to do your job, and the more power you have, the easier your job tends to be.

So if you head a law enforcement agency responsible for fighting child porn and human trafficking, and you could have the information resources of the Clinton-era Carnivore system and the UK's back door option (let's go ahead and throw in at-will wire tapping without requiring probable cause or a court order!), would that help you do your job? Make it easier to do a better job? Detect crime faster, get better evidence more easily and secure higher conviction rates?

Yeah. There's an old adage 'Where you stand on an issue depends on where you sit.' If you are a cop or head a police department, the power and enhanced role performance might sound good to you. If you've seen some of the horrors of the child porn industry and human trafficking, objections based on potential government abuse of a 'surveillance state' might sound less concerning.

My point is that these lawmakers may have a problem to solve (maybe child porn and human trafficking, but whatever criminal activities they're concerned about), and this surveillance state power could help do that better with what looks like little cost (e.g.: way cheaper than hiring half again the cops, etc...).

And that's when an organized, informed citizenry and rival groups without those conflicts-of-interest step in and say yes, that's all true, and we're still not going to let you do it.
 
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When you’re best friends with Klaus Schwab and the WEF, it makes you a borderline brown shirt by association. Especially when Davos selects you as a “Young Leader”. What WEF tells him to do, Starmer does.
You are going to have to explain what you mean by 'borderline brown shirt by association'. I've just spent time looking at Klaus Schwab and the stand out thing for me was his list of achievments and awards: French Legion of Honour (Knight Distinction), German Grand Cross with Star, Japan Order of the Rising Sun, Queen Elisabeth II Honourary Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus...erman: [,replaced by Peter Brabeck-Letmathe.). Controversies are also listed including the anonymous allegations of financial impropriety (unproven). World leaders are obliged to meet with a wide range of characters and Starmer has proven adept at this. I even have to admire him having to shake the sweaty palm of the Orange authoritarian. Perhaps you should stick to posting in a vacuous social media echo chamber were everyone accepts everything you say is true without challenge. Unless of course you can come up with something credible as evidence.
 
When you’re best friends with Klaus Schwab and the WEF, it makes you a borderline brown shirt by association. Especially when Davos selects you as a “Young Leader”. What WEF tells him to do, Starmer does.
Doesn't even come close to passing the sniff test.
 
I don't give a crap about them "messing with" our tech companies. I care very much about them messing with privacy rights. The excuses are the same as they are from every totalitarian regime, and the result if they are allowed to have their way is equally predictable. Apple's way is best: design in privacy wherever possible, so that infringing on it is technologically impossible.
 
Doesn't matter, Apple already disabled encryption for UK users (not that many had it enabled). You don't need a back door to access unencrypted data.
That's misleading. Apple was forced to disable new signups to ADP. The data of existing ADP users was and is encrypted and inaccessible to anyone, including Apple. The continuing availability of that was what the UK government was opposed to.
 
But realistically, how do any of us actually know that such backdoors don't already exist?
It's a good indication that they don't—at least for ADP—in that the UK gov (or was it the USA gov by proxy) demanded one for ADP (unless you want to countenance some fantastic double-bluff scenario).
 
This is exactly what anyone with any sense and knowledge was saying in 2015/2016 when the Tories were developing the legislation that enables this nonsense.

It’s essentially a dragnet enabling mass surveillance of everyone and everything in the hope that something useful might pop out.

Of course, any real criminal or terrorist will simply use an encrypted method of communication that isn’t subject to the legislation, so it all falls apart. But of course they knew that at the time too.
Indeed. Lazy policing. And lazy policy.
 
As is the average forum dweller :)
You keep hammering your point that highly intelligent people came up with this backdoor request, that the services in favor are highly intelligent overall, know what they're doing etc. etc.
By extension, the average forums user, i.e., people like me, are just not able to see the brilliance of the concept.

Backdoors or additional keys for government are a great solution as long as the government is able to protect its keys. And that's where the "thinking"(?) of government types and their cheerleaders tends to end. Next thing you know, someone with too much power for their own good loses their key, or leaves their laptop somewhere, or someone somehow gets access to the keys and all hell breaks loose because human flaws didn't enter the equation.

Stupid is as stupid does (old but true).

History is full of educated and intelligent people coming up with ideas that ultimately didn't work out. In government in particular, it's easy to come up with marvelous ideas that work as long as everybody works together for the common good. Built-in support for government access is such an idea.
 
There's an alternative explanation. What I'm about to describe to you was explained to me by someone else on the online forum Quora. It's understandable, passes the 'common sense' test and less sinister. The issue in question was why do authorities want more power? That can be the power of information (e.g.: wire-tapping, surveillance) or other forms. Is it a machiavellian plot by the Illuminati to conquer the world and control us all?

Or is it the convenience of (?lazy?) people?

His point was that most people have jobs, those jobs have responsibilities, and the burden of doing the job and executing those responsibilities gets onerous. With some jobs, actually doing everything you're technically supposed to do 'by the book' borders on impossible. Power is the ability to effect change in the universe, to get things done. You need power to do your job, and the more power you have, the easier your job tends to be.

So if you head a law enforcement agency responsible for fighting child porn and human trafficking, and you could have the information resources of the Clinton-era Carnivore system and the UK's back door option (let's go ahead and throw in at-will wire tapping without requiring probable cause or a court order!), would that help you do your job? Make it easier to do a better job? Detect crime faster, get better evidence more easily and secure higher conviction rates?

Yeah. There's an old adage 'Where you stand on an issue depends on where you sit.' If you are a cop or head a police department, the power and enhanced role performance might sound good to you. If you've seen some of the horrors of the child porn industry and human trafficking, objections based on potential government abuse of a 'surveillance state' might sound less concerning.

My point is that these lawmakers may have a problem to solve (maybe child porn and human trafficking, but whatever criminal activities they're concerned about), and this surveillance state power could help do that better with what looks like little cost (e.g.: way cheaper than hiring half again the cops, etc...).

And that's when an organized, informed citizenry and rival groups without those conflicts-of-interest step in and say yes, that's all true, and we're still not going to let you do it.
I definitely agree. I think it's one of those subjects where it's not as simple as 'they want to spy', often it's just 'this sounds like the easiest, or only way we can do it', especially if this is a subject where they feel if they don't say something now, they won't be easily able to backtrack in the future. If they believe that encryption will make their jobs immensely harder in the future, I do understand why they would default to saying 'we need a way to get past this, otherwise we can't fulfil our duties', especially with the limited budget and resources that these teams are probably dealing with.

Unfortunately I think (anecdotally though, this might not actually be true), that this backdoor would not be something which actually help. It would keep the door open should they need it, but it's not going to be something which actually results in helping enough to justify it, instead creating a flaw in a system which could allow bad actors access.

I think if they did force Apple's hand (not that I think Apple would bow to it, rather a hypothetical where they did), criminals and others doing those crimes would just move to different platforms that had not been 'tapped' yet. It just weakens it for the rest of us, whilst not actually aiding law enforcement activities.

There are very accessible methods of accessing the internet in the UK without being tracked (PAYG SIM bought with cash at any shop — heck you can even order free ones online!). Bad actors likely already would use these methods to remain anonymous. Encryption seems like the wrong area to focus on imo.
 
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It stands to reason the presumption here is that criminals engaged in crimes such as child porn materials and human trafficking will communicate online, rely on Apple's encryption, and if law enforcement has 'back door' access to that they can bypass the encryption, get the info. and prosecute.

I have a question about a link in that conceptual chain. For sake of argument, let's say I'm a devious criminal, part of a network of organized crime, based in the U.K. and we're smuggling...a highly protected species, the tuatara of New Zealand (note: I'm in the U.S., I don't smuggle reptiles and I think I saw a tuatara in a zoo once). And the U.K. government is out to shut us down.

Yeah, they won't be making a movie with this plot, but stay with me.

Reading this thread, would I simply have the option to buy a 3rd party strong encryption product and encrypt messages, perhaps to send as e-mail attachments? Not as convenient as just texting or firing off a quick e-mail, granted.

Does the criminal element have a simple, practical workaround for this?
 
It stands to reason the presumption here is that criminals engaged in crimes such as child porn materials and human trafficking will communicate online, rely on Apple's encryption, and if law enforcement has 'back door' access to that they can bypass the encryption, get the info. and prosecute.

I have a question about a link in that conceptual chain. For sake of argument, let's say I'm a devious criminal, part of a network of organized crime, based in the U.K. and we're smuggling...a highly protected species, the tuatara of New Zealand (note: I'm in the U.S., I don't smuggle reptiles and I think I saw a tuatara in a zoo once). And the U.K. government is out to shut us down.

Yeah, they won't be making a movie with this plot, but stay with me.

Reading this thread, would I simply have the option to buy a 3rd party strong encryption product and encrypt messages, perhaps to send as e-mail attachments? Not as convenient as just texting or firing off a quick e-mail, granted.

Does the criminal element have a simple, practical workaround for this?
I think this is my main point — if the news says that Apple has bowed to the pressure of the UK government and now they can snoop on your data, then surely any criminal just moves to another service that hasn't yet had the crackdown on it, or you go and find an alternative that they won't be able to crack down on like your own personal server.

I mean there's multiple messaging apps like Signal and Telegram that have end-to-end encryption, and from what I remember, Signal said that they would just exit the UK market. That doesn't mean that the platform would not be accessible when using a VPN (which I think is what users use in countries where it is currently banned). Even with an iPhone's backup from iCloud, they wouldn't be able to get the contents of Signal (since none of this is backed up to iCloud), or Telegram's secret chats (since these are never stored).

I just don't think the 'Snooper's Charter' really seems to account for these. In fact I actually believe that them enacting it has pushed more people to learn and care about using things like Advanced Data Protection (which if allowed again in the UK I will be enabling asap). I don't think I really cared before, but now I feel like it's something that might be taken away again, so I would.
 
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We don’t “know” that such backdoors don’t already exist (china!-cough!-china!). However, there is reason to assume they don’t.
Apple has promoted itself as a privacy brand to such an extent that now, if it ever leaked out that they had an undisclosed back door for something they claimed they didn’t, their credibility would be ravaged and no one would believe a word they said about anything. The company would probably never be able to come back from it.

In other words, imagine what happened with Apple Intelligence x 1,000.
Yeah, I agree with that - they *probably* don't. But if it really mattered to me, that probably wouldn't be good enough.
 
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