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Energy from fossil fuels is too cheap.

I think that petrol/gas is still incredibly cheap, when taking into account, that we don't have real alternatives and the increased likelihood that supply can't keep up with the demand in the near future.

I think only much higher costs for petrol/kerosine will be able to curb our demand, which would have at least two major advantages for our and future generations:

- Reduction of CO2 in the atmosphere
- Longer supply of fossil fuel within agriculture*

First thing to do is to tax kerosine/aviation fuel.
It's one of the most ridiculous things I could think of: Trains are one of the most energy efficient transport, therefore low impact on green house gases. Planes are less efficient and they exhaust their green house gases in the worst possible area in our atmosphere (no vegetation to process the CO2 back into C and O2). Yet, the energy used in planes is nearly tax free, while the energy used for trains/buses is taxed.

Higher tax on petrol/gas used by cars.
I find it again ridiculous that each year the average power and consumption of cars sold is increasing**. Why don't we put technical innovation into low consumption cars instead of more power? Exactly, petrol is so incredible cheap that still nobody is interested in the consumption figures of the car.
It also would stop people from doing unnecessary car rides. As long as Richmond, U.K., is congested with cars on a sunny summer Sunday afternoon, petrol is definitely way too cheap.

I cannot see that those two steps will ever be taken in Industrial Countries, which is very sad, because it's like a good kick in the arse of future generations. Therefore I hope that we will be hit as hard as possible by an energy crises, which most likely will happen in my lifetime... maybe mankind will be able to learn.

I also agree that many countries should rethink their budgets. All the billion of pounds the U.K. government wants to invest in Trident, nuclear submarines/weapons, program is just unworthy for an intelligent society. The real problem of the future is enough renewable energy sources, including the possibility to feed the people, which would most likely also solve the green house gas problem. There is no long term future relying on finite sources like oil, gas and uranium.

* Search for articles containing "Eat fossil fuels" on the net
** In Germany last year the average power of a car sold was 129 hp and the cars in advertising consume an incredible average of 9 litres per 100 km.
 
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I wouldn't mind, but it's the Government who should have advocated greener cars which are out there years ago - for exaple putting money into developing Hydrogen Power and other sources.
...

I agree with you that it is necessary to find alternatives. Hydrogen power is definitely not an alternative, because it's not a new source of energy, but a different form to store it, i.e. you need electricity to produce hydrogen, but it looses energy within the process, therefore it would have been better to use the electricity itself.

Please, don't get me started on Nuclear Power :)
You either need infinite supply of Uranium Ore, which produces radioactive waste, or fast breading reactors, which produce even more dangerous plutonium. Some people should also follow Uranium Ore price before they vote for nuclear power.
 
I agree that the new road charging scheme is the way forward, but I don't see how they can implement it without compromising my privacy. If they know where I've been driving and when then they could know how fast I've been driving. Also, if the system is not incredibly secure it could even become a tool for stalkers and murderers.

Of course, if the scheme does come in I'd want it to replace current road tax arrangements - not be additional, unless they're going to make it like owning a mobile phone and give you x peak hours and x off peak hours included ;)
 
I understand everybody loves everything to be free, but there is nothing wrong with toll roads. You use it, you pay for it. It is not fair to get other people to pay for the road you use. You save money by buying a house far away from where you work and then demand that government subsidize your choice by building free roads to your door. I'd rather pay less income taxes and more usage fees, so the cost of everybody's lifestyles become transparent. Why should I pay (through my taxes) for the water you use for your lawn or the road you use for your commute? Would you like the government to pay for your phone calls as well?
that's insulting. i agree completely - there is nothing wrong with toll roads. but when i'm paying over £2600 ($5200) to the government each year in road and petrol/gas taxes, it's a step too far. if they are planning on replacing these taxes, and if i can make a small saving (seeing as i'm a student anyway) that would be great. but to tell us we're demanding something for free either means you're missing the key facts in this discussion, or you're just trying to annoy us brits.


Doesnt the Uk tax gas for roads? Just more Govt throwing tax on top of tax on top of tax. When do they start taxing the air your breath because this kind of thing wont stop until everything you do will be taxed. Uk is a bigger mess then I thought.
yup. see above. £200 of that £2600 is direct 'road tax', the rest is 'fuel duty' as they put it. :rolleyes:
 
For as long as I can remember I've thought public transport is too expensive. For getting from city to city, it is nowadays quite a pleasant experience, except for the effect on your wallet. But for rural people it is, and I fear always will be, completely unfeasible. Cars will always be essential while people live in the sticks.

So the solution to congestion is to urbanise as many people as possible, get them using public transport or personal non-polluting transport such as bicycles, and I'm afraid some more tax on cars. Congestion charging in cities seems a reasonable idea to me, to reduce congestion hotspots - but I am uneasy with the idea of charging *all* car journeys. Definitely smacks of Big Brother.

In the meantime, we have to wean ourselves off of fossil fuel-based economies. Perhaps that's a little OT, for the time being.
 
Well Said Dynamic V

"Which is why I have no problem with the Congestion Charge type system as we have in London, but there's a move in Government at present to install little black boxes in our vehicles so they can get this pay per mile system to work. That I really think crosses the line, and if any Government official tries to tell you they would only use the info for traffic management, they are lying to you. This country has proved time and again that the Government will abuse any power you give it. The movement data will be recorded and passed automatically to your centralised database records, which the Inland Revenue, the Police, and the security services will be able to dig into with a key press.

Don't trust them one bit, or the moment you make yourself heard they'll use everything they've got against you.

BTW, to those Americans who don't realise it, we don't have proper Freedom of Information in this country, we also don't have a written Constitution to fall back on. It's basically a few "Activist Judges" and Civil Rights groups that keep the system steady. The politicians are constantly trying to take our rights away, and waste billions of taxpayers money in the process both on failed IT schemes and court cases. That money could easily be used to subsidise the public transport to the point where more people will voluntarily give up their cars. But then they wouldn't have their Big Government."

Wasn't it Tony Blare who said -

"Surveillance, Surveillance, Surveillance!"
 
I don't think anyone really would have a problem with this system IF It fairly charges based on how congested each road is (and not a flat fee, cause that will change nothing), the road tax was abolished and fuel tax dissapeared.

I think the problem is that nobody trusts the British Government not to add this stuff on TOP of the current road costs.
 
I understand everybody loves everything to be free, but there is nothing wrong with toll roads. You use it, you pay for it. It is not fair to get other people to pay for the road you use. You save money by buying a house far away from where you work and then demand that government subsidize your choice by building free roads to your door. I'd rather pay less income taxes and more usage fees, so the cost of everybody's lifestyles become transparent. Why should I pay (through my taxes) for the water you use for your lawn or the road you use for your commute? Would you like the government to pay for your phone calls as well?

I do have a problem with toll roads when I already pay the government for owning a car. They get a cut of each gallon of gas I buy. I have to pay $25 every 2 years for some high school dropout to spend 30 seconds to plug a computer into my on board diagnostics port and tell me my car passed emissions. I have to pay $25 each year for a sticker for my license plate that says I renewed my registration. Every year I have to pay personal property tax on my car. Every few years, I have to pay to renew my license. Sales tax on a new car can easily exceed $1,000. If the government got rid of all those other taxes and fees, then I'd have no problem with a toll road, but with everything we currently pay, it shouldn't cost us 5 bucks to cross a bridge.
 
If by "extortion" you mean "essentially a tax that funds one of the best publically-owned media services in the world," then... yes? Do some research on the history of radio and television development and see why MANY people in the U.S. wish we had gone with a publically-funded model of telecommunications rather than a privately-owned one (which has netted us our current media landscape with all its MANY faults).
Well, the debate isn't about the merits of quality television programming, as I am perfectly happy with US' own Public Broadcasting Service, which has some great programming too.

More to the fact, if you own a TV and wish to only watch DVDs or personal home movies (ahem :p) you are charged regardless.

I personally think it's a bad idea, just like the proposed "Road Use" tax. The only toll we have here is the Coquihalla highway, but it's privately run I believe.
 
I do have a problem with toll roads when I already pay the government for owning a car. They get a cut of each gallon of gas I buy. I have to pay $25 every 2 years for some high school dropout to spend 30 seconds to plug a computer into my on board diagnostics port and tell me my car passed emissions. I have to pay $25 each year for a sticker for my license plate that says I renewed my registration. Every year I have to pay personal property tax on my car. Every few years, I have to pay to renew my license. Sales tax on a new car can easily exceed $1,000. If the government got rid of all those other taxes and fees, then I'd have no problem with a toll road, but with everything we currently pay, it shouldn't cost us 5 bucks to cross a bridge.

Just a few points on cost to what you pay, and what WE (us British) have to pay.

Tax on petrol, around 70p p/L

Road Tax - Engines under 1.4L - 6 months £50 - 12 months £100 (The larger your car, the more tax. Our BMW X5 3.0 has a 12month tax tag of £580 a year

MOT - When a car has reached 3 years old from date of first registration, it needs a road test every year to certify its road worthyness. This can cost upwards of £30-40. If something fails, you then need to get it repaired, and then pay again for the test.

Tax on New Cars. All New cars have VAT added to their price (usually inclusive) However, there is another joy called On the Road Price, where you pay £160 for the registration of the car (again, this can often be more depending on the car/dealer)

When it costs around £46 ($91) to fill a 40litre petrol tank around every 12 days... it gets costly.
 
Our BMW X5 3.0 has a 12month tax tag of £580 a year

When it costs around £46 ($91) to fill a 40litre petrol tank around every 12 days... it gets costly.

£580 RFL for 12 months ? Are you sure?
I thought the highest RFL figures were for 2006 reg. cars emitting more then 225g/km and were taxed at £210 PA.
 
Wasn't this the reason why the 13 colonies revolted against the British because of the high taxes.
 
...
Our BMW X5 3.0 has a 12month tax tag of £580 a year
...

Is that all? £580 a year?
What a joke. How much did you pay for the car? I would think it's around £50K for it (new).

I have another great idea... if your "new" car consumes more petrol than your last one, you have to pay the same amount paid for the car as pollution tax to the government as well.

I doubt there would be any petrol guzzling cars on the street anymore.
 
Road pricing is the way forward. You pay to drive your car and get charged depending on the type of road and time of day. Road Tax is abolished. That way people driving in towns during the rush hour get punished and people who live in the country and need the car are able to do so with out paying through the nose. Thats the theory.

The practice will be different as the Chancellor will see this simply as another income stream that can be diverted to wherever cash is needed and transport infrastructure will be ignored. The ministers implimenting the policy who have never had a proper job in their lives will fcsk it up and the civil servants tell them what they want to hear thanks to their politicisation.

If done properly this should not be a civil liberties issue.

A written constitution is no protection - Habeas Corpus.
 
Road pricing is the way forward. You pay to drive your car and get charged depending on the type of road and time of day. Road Tax is abolished. That way people driving in towns during the rush hour get punished and people who live in the country and need the car are able to do so with out paying through the nose. Thats the theory.

And people like me who live in the countryside and have to commute into a large town via the M1? How's that going to benefit me with the extra £300 a week to get to work they have proposed? Also how about about charity organisations like the RSPCA who's inspectors spend most of the day on the road - during rush hour and off peak? How are they going to benefit?
 
More to the fact, if you own a TV and wish to only watch DVDs or personal home movies (ahem :p) you are charged regardless.

Not the case, if you can prove that you aren't receiving broadcasts then you don't have to pay. Proving it is the difficult bit. The TV licensing people refuse to believe it's possible to get by without TV. They came round to my flat and asked if I had a TV, I said "no", they said "Ok" and left. A week later, I get a letter saying I'm under investigation for not paying a TV license.

As for the roads, it's unfeasible to say everyone should use public transport to get to work. It's not as easy as that, how do you get to the train station, then from there to work? Most train companies don't let you take bikes on the train in the morning and evening, so people just drive.

Things like this will do nothing but harm to the economy. People will have to pay more to get to work, so eventually their employers will have to pay them more, and we're back where we started. What about people whose job involves travelling?

The only time I'd accept this would be if they scrapped the License Disc, took tax off petrol and reduced the price of the MOT test. I'd also want it linked to my insurance, so when I drove less I'd pay less insurance.

Willis, what do you gain from the X5 that you wouldn't gain from, say, an estate car? You'd save money on both the purchase price and the tax. Cars like what you drive are part of the reason all this rubbish is coming in. The government wants people to drive friendlier cars, but people keep buying the thirsty ones regardless.
 
I dunno how you people can live over there. And they say its bad here.

It's not bad here, it's just expensive :D

Plus don't you guys pay out elsewhere? I mean Americans get shocked about paying for TVs here but when I was in my teens and found out you have to have insurance just to be seen by a doctor I was :eek: sounded dangerous to me.

oh and BBC rocks. It's the best media provider I've ever seen. No adverts anywhere (TV, online etc). No breaks in TV shows to show me crappy products. Worth it's weight in gold.

More to the fact, if you own a TV and wish to only watch DVDs or personal home movies (ahem :p) you are charged regardless.

Wrong. For her first year of university my girlfriend only used her TV as a DVD player and to play games on. No TV at all, no TV socket for one. She rang up and they said she wouldn't need to buy a license.
And TV scanning equipment only picks up an electronic device. any. My lecturer doesn't even have a TV but got many letters telling me he needs to buy a license.


ON TOPIC.
As a non-driver, well I couldn't care. My friends are drivers so I just abuse them. We all go to the same city for university/work so geting lifts to important places is not hard at all.
 
Wrong. For her first year of university my girlfriend only used her TV as a DVD player and to play games on. No TV at all, no TV socket for one. She rang up and they said she wouldn't need to buy a license.
And TV scanning equipment only picks up an electronic device. any. My lecturer doesn't even have a TV but got many letters telling me he needs to buy a license.

while spicyapple's statement was slightly mislead, you're not quite right either.

if you have a television, DVD Recorder, TV Tuner for your computer, in fact anything that is capable of recieving a TV signal - regardless of the presence of an ariel/socket/whatever, you are legally obligated to pay a license fee. It covers owning a device, not the act of watching a tv.

and they send out those letters regardless. i've never seen a 'van' anywhere around here, yet my mates in the flat upstairs get letters each month demanding payment, for the tv they don't have. :rolleyes:
 
if you have a television, DVD Recorder, TV Tuner for your computer, in fact anything that is capable of recieving a TV signal - regardless of the presence of an ariel/socket/whatever, you are legally obligated to pay a license fee. It covers owning a device, not the act of watching a tv.

I don't think so, I'm afraid:

TV Licensing said:
What if I only use a TV to watch videos/DVDs/as a monitor for my games console? Do I still need a licence?

You need to notify us in writing that this is the case and one our Enforcement Officers may need to visit you to confirm that you do not need a licence.

Please write to us including your name, address and the reason you believe that you don't need a licence at:

TV Licensing
Bristol
BS98 1TL

http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/gethelp/faqs.jsp
 
*Sigh*

Well guys, I don't live in the UK and I don't know the finer points of the TV licensing laws, but it seems a lot of effort, confusion and way too much regulation. Here in Canada, you can own a TV without getting hassled by enforcement agents (aka goons :p).

All we pay is $24 or so for basic cable which includes 28 channels, of which 3 are public/government run and your local access channel open to the public. The bundle rate rises as you add more specialty channels like HBO and CNN, etc.

luv ya bunches, xoxoxo
 
Wasn't this the reason why the 13 colonies revolted against the British because of the high taxes.

The Civil war was fought over the right to levy tax's

Although the over net effect was that rich powerful British were replaced with rich powerful Americans.

:confused: :p

Anyway, im hoping to get a driving license next year, at the grand old age of 30 :eek: , and im very much in favour (THATS WITH A U!!;) ) of a pay as you go sceme.

Something has to be done, otherwise 20 odd years down the line the UK, along with the entire world, will be gridlocked right up to peoples kitchen windows.
 
One more thing, and yes everything is more expensive in the UK and Labour have given up on fighting crime, but plus points

Free healthcare
No guns
No George Bush
Anyone lucky enough to own a house can sell it at when they retire and buy an island in the far east with the proceeds.
 
Just a few points on cost to what you pay, and what WE (us British) have to pay.

Tax on petrol, around 70p p/L

Road Tax - Engines under 1.4L - 6 months £50 - 12 months £100 (The larger your car, the more tax. Our BMW X5 3.0 has a 12month tax tag of £580 a year

MOT - When a car has reached 3 years old from date of first registration, it needs a road test every year to certify its road worthyness. This can cost upwards of £30-40. If something fails, you then need to get it repaired, and then pay again for the test.

Tax on New Cars. All New cars have VAT added to their price (usually inclusive) However, there is another joy called On the Road Price, where you pay £160 for the registration of the car (again, this can often be more depending on the car/dealer)

When it costs around £46 ($91) to fill a 40litre petrol tank around every 12 days... it gets costly.

Oh yeah I know you guys definitely get the shaft over there and we have it easy. My point about toll roads still stands though. If you're already paying the government all sorts of other fees for car ownership, regardless of how much those fees and taxes are, then there should be no reason for toll roads, congestion charges, etc.
 
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