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Beethoven was profoundly deaf when he wrote his later symphonies. I can only imagine what went on in his head, unable to hear for himself the masterpieces that he had written; in a very real and tragic sense, it was "an imaginary construct".
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I always liked that line from Mr Holland's Opus, where he's telling the class how Beethoven was deaf, and heard his music perfectly in his head, and the orchestra was trying to desperately just to keep up.

It's cool that he could compose such beautiful music without being able to hear it - but he wasn't born deaf... I had never really got the sense of this until my guitar teacher explained it this way: We can speak, read and write; if we go blind or deaf, that doesn't mean we would forget how to write or how to speak. Beethoven knew what the notes and orchestration were supposed to sound like and knew what he wanted to write.
 
I always liked that line from Mr Holland's Opus, where he's telling the class how Beethoven was deaf, and heard his music perfectly in his head, and the orchestra was trying to desperately just to keep up.

It's cool that he could compose such beautiful music without being able to hear it - but he wasn't born deaf... I had never really got the sense of this until my guitar teacher explained it this way: We can speak, read and write; if we go blind or deaf, that doesn't mean we would forget how to write or how to speak. Beethoven knew what the notes and orchestration were supposed to sound like and knew what he wanted to write.

I agree completely. Yes, but to be able to hear it in his head and replicate and compose such powerful music (because his later symphonies are the really outstanding ones) is really - the American adjective "awesome" - fits perfectly here. It was an astonishing achievement, and must have been heart-breaking - and almost devastatingly soul-destroying for him not to be able to hear for himself what he was composing, even as he realised how superlative an achievement it was.

The fact that his deafness developed - almost in tandem with his achieving musical greatness - is extraordinary.

Mozart also heard everything in his head (and just look at his written notation - there appears to have been very little revision, instead, it all seems to have come almost perfectly realised from his sublime imagination.) Simply incredible.
Cheers
 
Mozart also heard everything in his head (and just look at his written notation - there appears to have been very little revision, instead, it all seems to have come almost perfectly realised from his sublime imagination.) Simply incredible.
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Although it is common that many composers and arrangers don't really need to hear the music in order to compose great pieces, Mozart was unique. His first language was really music. Much of his music was almost like it was being dictated to him and all he had to do was write it down. I think there is a scene in "Amadeus" where it shows him composing, then a flash, and he knew the piece complete and just had to write it down. I think that was how it was like for him. He even wrote a few pieces without a score - wrote the first violin part from beginning to end, second violin from beginning to end, viola... Sick, just sick.

I do think Mozart's mind was on the same genius level as Einstein, Da Vinci or any other great science mind, except in music.

Beethoven was a genius too - he just had to revise a lot to get it perfect. He made the ideal Romantic Period figure since he suffered for his art. Very little of the 19th Century Western classical music was unaffected by Beethoven
 
Although it is common that many composers and arrangers don't really need to hear the music in order to compose great pieces, Mozart was unique. His first language was really music. Much of his music was almost like it was being dictated to him and all he had to do was write it down. I think there is a scene in "Amadeus" where it shows him composing, then a flash, and he knew the piece complete and just had to write it down. I think that was how it was like for him. He even wrote a few pieces without a score - wrote the first violin part from beginning to end, second violin from beginning to end, viola... Sick, just sick.

I do think Mozart's mind was on the same genius level as Einstein, Da Vinci or any other great science mind, except in music.

Beethoven was a genius too - he just had to revise a lot to get it perfect. He made the ideal Romantic Period figure since he suffered for his art. Very little of the 19th Century Western classical music was unaffected by Beethoven

I agree completely with you about Mozart and that in the field of music he ranks as an absolute genius, as great in music as da Vinci and Einstein were in theirs. It did come naturally to him, as you say, it was his natural language, his mother tongue. And the music itself is simply perfect in parts, every note is exactly right (remember his famous dialogue with the Austrian Emperor, Josef II, when the Emperor muttered, sitting at the keyboard, "Too many notes, dear Mozart. Too many notes," to which Mozart shot back that every note was exactly where it was supposed to be and that there were neither too few nor too many. Deference was not a defining characteristic of his).

Amadeus captured very well the idea that one can be an extraordinary creative genius in one field, - a field which one treats with utter dedication and a quest for perfection - and a rather earthy human being in other walks of life. It didn't touch upon Mozart's politics, which were extremely radical (he was an ardent freemason, and The Marriage of Figaro was based on a somewhat subversive radical text by the French aristocrat Beaumarchais, The Barber of Seville.)

Re the contrast with Beethoven, I have wondered what might have happened with Mozart had he been born 20 years later than he actually was; he would have been around to see the stifling and rather deferential society where composers and musicians depended on aristocratic patronage and favour, fall out of fashion. Career-wise, it was a lot easier for Beethoven to flourish, although, as you rightly say, he suffered hugely in personal and psychological terms. Josef Haydn, who knew them both, rated both very highly long before either of them had become celebrated.
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My previous statement wasn't meant to diminish the fact that Beethoven's writing such beautiful music was not a great accomplishment - I agree that his later work was outstanding (the 7th is one of the best pieces ever written, imo. To hear that with a live orchestra is really, really amazing).

And Mozart, well - he was almost a savant when it came to music. In the film (which is of course based on actual facts as closely as possible) Salieri takes note that Mozart could compose a piece without making mistakes because he could hear it so well in his head. I'm sure he made mistakes, but to able to even get close to something the first shot out of the box like that is cool.
 
My previous statement wasn't meant to diminish the fact that Beethoven's writing such beautiful music was not a great accomplishment - I agree that his later work was outstanding (the 7th is one of the best pieces ever written, imo. To hear that with a live orchestra is really, really amazing).

And Mozart, well - he was almost a savant when it came to music. In the film (which is of course based on actual facts as closely as possible) Salieri takes note that Mozart could compose a piece without making mistakes because he could hear it so well in his head. I'm sure he made mistakes, but to able to even get close to something the first shot out of the box like that is cool.

I agree completely re Beethoven; 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th symphonies and the superb 9th symphony are all incredible achievements; and no, I hadn't thought you meant to diminish Beethoven at all, quite the contrary. However, for perfection, effortless grace, exquisite and flawless music and pure genius almost all of the time, Mozart is still the man. Despite the criticism it received in some quarters, I rather liked Amadeus; Mozart was earthy and somewhat vulgar, and his letters show a vigorous and ribald sense of humour. Above all, he was a lively man, who loved life, laughter, parties. And dedicated himself to music. The actor who played Salieri (F. Murray Abraham) was absolutely wonderful.

Cheers
 
I think F. Murray won an Oscar for that role didn't he?

I'd like to see that Ed Harris/Diane Kruger movie about Beethoven. Not based on fact I don't believe but it would be interesting nonetheless.
 
Yes, I believe that he did, and richly-deserved, too; it was an utterly compelling performance.

Re the Beethoven movie, I have not actually seen it, but the reviews were not favourable, I seem to recall.
Cheers
 
Re: Amadeus.


That was meant as a joke right?

The movie Amadeus bears very little relation to actual events…
It is a play.
A work of fiction.

Yes, it is but the wider story is more or less accurate and it did succeed in bringing Mozart and his music to a wider world audience.

Of course Salieri did not murder, or poison, Mozart (although dark rumours did irculate in Vienna for some decades after Mozart's death). However, the movie was accurate in portraying Mozart's personality, his troubled relationship with his father, his uncompromising attitude to the creation of his music (he refused to tutor the untalented children of the rich, thereby forgoing an easy potential source of income), his lack of deference in a rigidly hierarchical social world, and his sheer bloody-minded genius.
Cheers
 
Re: Amadeus.


That was meant as a joke right?

The movie Amadeus bears very little relation to actual events…
It is a play.
A work of fiction.

Yes, it is but the wider story is more or less accurate and it did succeed in bringing Mozart and his music to a wider world audience.

Of course Salieri did not murder, or poison, Mozart (although dark rumours did circulate in Vienna for some decades after Mozart's death). However, the movie was accurate in portraying Mozart's personality, his troubled relationship with his father, his uncompromising attitude to the creation of his music (he refused to tutor the untalented children of the rich, thereby forgoing an easy potential source of income), his lack of deference in a rigidly hierarchical social world, and his sheer bloody-minded genius.
Cheers
 
Re: Amadeus.


That was meant as a joke right?

The movie Amadeus bears very little relation to actual events…
It is a play.
A work of fiction.

Shows to go ya I don't know that much. I had thought it was based on letters and available correspondence. I realize of course certain stuff is going to be conjecture, but the themes of the film were accurate, as was mentioned.

My dad read that book about his life, and certain stuff in the movie is way off, and other stuff is spot on. I didn't read it myself, thence my apparently absurd comment in the post above.
 
Ah, Vincent Twice, I presume, I presume?? :p

Mea cupa. I am abroad at present (in the Caucuses) and the internet connection froze and blanked, hence I hit the send key twice. Mods, feel free to delete one of the posts if you wish.

Amadeus is roughly accurate, but (like most movies) not completely so. Still, it's a terrific tale.

Cheers
 
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