Crunch

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 26, 2008
701
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Crazy L.A.
Hello everyone!

So I'm finally looking at High Sierra at the .1 release level and I'm still not sure whether I should do it.

And to be honest, as a geek, of course I want to just to see the new stuff, which for me very much includes so-called under-the-hood improvements. :D

So if I do upgrade, I'm not sure about wanting to convert to APFS. I don't like being forced to convert to it to begin with, but for those of you whose startup disk is an SSD, there's a way to prevent High Sierra from converting to APFS, but it has to be done at the installer level.

Which brings me to one key question about upgrading: Is APFS really noticeably faster? I mean besides making duplicate copies of files locally, which doesn't impress me, as I have no need for that. I do move tons of files around, but mostly on external (non-SSD) hard drives.

Why am I so concerned:

I only recently moved from OS X 10.11.6, which I'd always been very fond of, to 10.12.6 Sierra, because I was forced to due to being on a new 2016 MacBook Pro.

So far, I don't like the little surprises that Sierra has thrown at me, for example when I found out that I had to hack into my OS to be able to launch non-App Store apps, or, as Apple calls them, "unidentified" applications.

The OS X version prior saw Disk Utility deprecated, and Apple's continued efforts to iOS-ify macOS has always been annoying to me. Don't get me wrong, I love how well iOS and macOS play together. It's a great eco-system. But let macOS be macOS.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.
 

Fishrrman

macrumors Core
Feb 20, 2009
22,218
8,266
If you're unsure about committing to High Sierra, why not do a "test install" to an EXTERNAL drive?

Then, you can boot to it, test your apps, run from it for awhile, etc. -- without "endangering" your current installation.

In any case, if you decide to try it on your main (internal) drive, I would STRONGLY SUGGEST that before doing the upgrade, that you use either CarbonCopyCloner or SuperDuper to create a FULLY BOOTABLE cloned backup of your current OS on an external drive.

If you have such a backup, and don't like High Sierra, it's easy and simple to "get back to where you once belonged".
If you DON'T have such a backup, you can still "get back" -- but it's not going to be easy.

Also:
I recommend that you install HS using a USB flashdrive installer.
You can use ONE of the following to create it:
- Boot Buddy
- DiskMaker X
- Install Disk Creator
You'll need a copy of the installer app and a USB flashdrive 16gb or larger.
Makes things much easier!
 
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MSastre

macrumors 6502a
Aug 18, 2014
614
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If you're unsure about committing to High Sierra, why not do a "test install" to an EXTERNAL drive?

Then, you can boot to it, test your apps, run from it for awhile, etc. -- without "endangering" your current installation.

In any case, if you decide to try it on your main (internal) drive, I would STRONGLY SUGGEST that before doing the upgrade, that you use either CarbonCopyCloner or SuperDuper to create a FULLY BOOTABLE cloned backup of your current OS on an external drive.

If you have such a backup, and don't like High Sierra, it's easy and simple to "get back to where you once belonged".
If you DON'T have such a backup, you can still "get back" -- but it's not going to be easy.

Also:
I recommend that you install HS using a USB flashdrive installer.
You can use ONE of the following to create it:
- Boot Buddy
- DiskMaker X
- Install Disk Creator
You'll need a copy of the installer app and a USB flashdrive 16gb or larger.
Makes things much easier!


Absolutely the best way to go about seeing if a new OS will work for you. Run it on a test drive and have a completely cloned original system to go back to if you don't like it. I always keep a regularly cloned system for those "just in case" emergencies anyway.
 
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Mac Hammer Fan

macrumors 6502a
Jul 13, 2004
832
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Belgium
So far, I installed High Sierra only on a HFS HD. I will try to clone it to an SSD but I definitely won't convert to APFS at this moment, because my working partition of El Capitan can't recognize it in this case and my nVidia 980 has no bootscreen.
 

prisstratton

macrumors 6502a
Dec 20, 2011
540
123
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Although any test environment is better than nothing, if you truly want to experience how High Sierra will work on your system, I would suggest that you create a new partition to test it. Then you will know for sure how it will work for your particular setup.

One hang up……..if you do not like it, then your Disk Utility in Sierra cannot manipulate an APFS volume, so I am not sure how you would reclaim that space. I imagine it might be possible at the command line level, but you need to be sure of what you are doing (I think @Weaselboy would be a go to for that). If on the other hand you find you like it, then removing the test partition after you update is easy.

In answer to your “key question”, I do not see any “real world” improvement with APFS. Also, Disk Utility is quite limited in functionality at the moment, I am hoping that this will improve.

Just to give you some perspective, I upgraded from Mavericks to High Sierra when it was released. I had tested the “beta’s” on a separate partition prior to this. I upgraded primarily for security concerns as I cannot take advantage of new features on my system anyway.
 

rayward

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2007
1,623
59
Houston, TX
I'm on a 201
I'm on an older 2011 Imac I don't think I'm going to upgrade

Me neither. I am very wary of how HS will react to my after-market fusion drive and am going to hold off on the upgrade at least until APFS supports fusion drives and people are reporting successful upgrades on non-factory fusion drives. Once we're there, then I'll think about it.
 

Crunch

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 26, 2008
701
75
Crazy L.A.
Thank you all very much for your help!

I made a backup, decided to let the OS convert my SSD to APFS, and installed right over Sierra, instead of doing a fresh install like I had planned, which was and now still is overdue.

No problems other than Bluetooth of all things. I reset the Bluetooth adapter after removing all devices. I hope that'll do the trick. I currently only have ONE BT device, which is Apple's own Magic Mouse, the old/first one. It connects and disconnects when lifted. Let's see if that goes away.

One thing I noticed is that FileVault is still there and enabled for the APFS volume. I thought FV was replaced with APFS' own and "superior" encryption? Am I double encrypted now?

I wonder how many creepy new spy things Apple put in this OS.
 

Weaselboy

Moderator
Staff member
Jan 23, 2005
31,810
11,520
California
One thing I noticed is that FileVault is still there and enabled for the APFS volume. I thought FV was replaced with APFS' own and "superior" encryption? Am I double encrypted now?
FileVault can be looked at as the "product name" for full boot disk encryption in macOS. Before under HFS+, the HFS encryption method, and now under APFS it uses the APFS encryption method. Both are still called FileVault. So no, you are not double encrypted.
 

randomgeeza

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2014
479
293
United Kingdom
Thank you all very much for your help!

I made a backup, decided to let the OS convert my SSD to APFS, and installed right over Sierra, instead of doing a fresh install like I had planned, which was and now still is overdue.

No problems other than Bluetooth of all things. I reset the Bluetooth adapter after removing all devices. I hope that'll do the trick. I currently only have ONE BT device, which is Apple's own Magic Mouse, the old/first one. It connects and disconnects when lifted. Let's see if that goes away.

One thing I noticed is that FileVault is still there and enabled for the APFS volume. I thought FV was replaced with APFS' own and "superior" encryption? Am I double encrypted now?

I wonder how many creepy new spy things Apple put in this OS.

What else have you noticed. I am in the same boat, and still deciding if to upgrade or not. I'm on a very stable and responsive 10.12.6... But, am getting itchy fingers for the latest and greatest...?
 
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Mac Hammer Fan

macrumors 6502a
Jul 13, 2004
832
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Belgium
What else have you noticed. I am in the same boat, and still deciding if to upgrade or not. I'm on a very stable and responsive 10.12.6... But, am getting itchy fingers for the latest and greatest...?
At this moment, I wouldn't install HS on a partition that you use for your work. Personally, I installed it on a HD, not an SSD because I am afraid of APFS. Only for testing purposes. My experience is that there are no significant improvements over Sierra, but some additional compatibility problems (e.g. Firefox can no more display pdf's, my scanner Canon Pixma doesn't work, crashes in Filemaker 11 and Office 2011 when opening complex documents with many illustrations and formulas; etc..)
There are too many complaints about slow boot times and slow writing speeds (see other threads) and problems with FileVault. Perhaps these problems will be solved in a future update, but disabling TRIM is definitely not a good solution.
 

Bart Kela

Suspended
Oct 12, 2016
865
593
Searching...
I'm on an older 2011 Imac I don't think I'm going to upgrade
Runs just fine on my 2010 Mac mini.

You can always downgrade back to Sierra if you don't like High Sierra. Plenty of online tutorials about how to do that. Just use your favorite Internet search engine.

But the easiest way is to use a utility like Carbon Copy Cloner and make an exact duplicate of your pre-High Sierra boot drive to an external disk.
 
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ilandmac

macrumors member
Mar 25, 2012
85
2
Remote island
Although any test environment is better than nothing, if you truly want to experience how High Sierra will work on your system, I would suggest that you create a new partition to test it. Then you will know for sure how it will work for your particular setup.

One hang up……..if you do not like it, then your Disk Utility in Sierra cannot manipulate an APFS volume, so I am not sure how you would reclaim that space. I imagine it might be possible at the command line level, but you need to be sure of what you are doing (I think @Weaselboy would be a go to for that). If on the other hand you find you like it, then removing the test partition after you update is easy.

In answer to your “key question”, I do not see any “real world” improvement with APFS. Also, Disk Utility is quite limited in functionality at the moment, I am hoping that this will improve.

Just to give you some perspective, I upgraded from Mavericks to High Sierra when it was released. I had tested the “beta’s” on a separate partition prior to this. I upgraded primarily for security concerns as I cannot take advantage of new features on my system anyway.
[doublepost=1511139433][/doublepost]Hi,

beg to differ. I had an APFS partition on my nMacpro, it crapped for whatever. I deleted the partition under Sierra, created a new one, CCC copied my primary partition, booted from that, installed HS which converted again that partition to APFS.
 

Crunch

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 26, 2008
701
75
Crazy L.A.
I wish I didn't upgrade.

Why, what's going on with your install?


What else have you noticed. I am in the same boat, and still deciding if to upgrade or not. I'm on a very stable and responsive 10.12.6... But, am getting itchy fingers for the latest and greatest...?

I hear you. I was on OS X 10.11.6, a fantastically rock solid version until I bought a 2016 MacBook Pro, and that is really how Apple will force all of us to upgrade eventually, purchasing a new Mac. Going from 10.11.6 to 10.12.6 went smoothly, although, like I said, I don't appreciate Apple dumbing down macOS with each iteration.

Booting into 10.13.1 is no faster or slower than 10.12.6, and most of the time, I forget I even upgraded to a new OS, it's that insignificant. All of the applications I use seem to work fine.

It's just the Bluetooth connectivity issue that is haunting me. The resetting the BT adapter didn't work, so I also cleaned out the com.apple.Bluetooth files in /Library/Preferences and /Library/Preferences/ByHost, but it's still not working. The symptom is that whenever I lift the mouse in any meaningful way, it disconnects for a few seconds and then re-connects. Truly annoying. And it's the ONLY BT device I am using at the moment. If this cannot be resolved, I'll have to go back to Sierra or do a fresh install, which I haven't done in years and which is something I have been wanting to do for a while now in any case.

OK, just now, since I've been writing this message, my mouse has disconnected 3 times and I have actually resorted to using a crappy USB PC mouse from Dell because of my Bluetooth issue. WTF is going on!?

What does everyone think I should do: Do a fresh install of High Sierra or just go back to Sierra and call it a day? Or maybe invest the time and do a clean install, but of Sierra? Oh boy...
 

prisstratton

macrumors 6502a
Dec 20, 2011
540
123
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
[doublepost=1511139433][/doublepost]Hi,

beg to differ. I had an APFS partition on my nMacpro, it crapped for whatever. I deleted the partition under Sierra, created a new one, CCC copied my primary partition, booted from that, installed HS which converted again that partition to APFS.

Thanks for the info....interesting. Actually my main partition was Mavericks and it could do nothing with the APFS partition. I made an assumption that the same would be true with any Mac OS that was not High Sierra.
 

Crunch

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 26, 2008
701
75
Crazy L.A.
Another observation is that under High Sierra, I'll get the color "beach ball" when adding a new tab in Safari 11, even after a recent reboot. This was also the case on Safari 11 under Sierra, but to a lesser extent! Granted, I always have a ridiculously high number of tabs open (sometimes 100+), but El Capitan and Safari 10 had no problems with that many tabs and neither did Sierra with Safari 10, if memory serves.

Quick update: I just reset the SMC and NVRAM. Still the same issue with Bluetooth, although I'm not sure the SMC part "took". Arghh....

Is the mouse supposed to disconnect when lifted from the surface completely? Have I suddenly forgotten as to how to properly use Apple's own Magic Mouse?
 

randomgeeza

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2014
479
293
United Kingdom
Why, what's going on with your install?




I hear you. I was on OS X 10.11.6, a fantastically rock solid version until I bought a 2016 MacBook Pro, and that is really how Apple will force all of us to upgrade eventually, purchasing a new Mac. Going from 10.11.6 to 10.12.6 went smoothly, although, like I said, I don't appreciate Apple dumbing down macOS with each iteration.

Booting into 10.13.1 is no faster or slower than 10.12.6, and most of the time, I forget I even upgraded to a new OS, it's that insignificant. All of the applications I use seem to work fine.

It's just the Bluetooth connectivity issue that is haunting me. The resetting the BT adapter didn't work, so I also cleaned out the com.apple.Bluetooth files in /Library/Preferences and /Library/Preferences/ByHost, but it's still not working. The symptom is that whenever I lift the mouse in any meaningful way, it disconnects for a few seconds and then re-connects. Truly annoying. And it's the ONLY BT device I am using at the moment. If this cannot be resolved, I'll have to go back to Sierra or do a fresh install, which I haven't done in years and which is something I have been wanting to do for a while now in any case.

OK, just now, since I've been writing this message, my mouse has disconnected 3 times and I have actually resorted to using a crappy USB PC mouse from Dell because of my Bluetooth issue. WTF is going on!?

What does everyone think I should do: Do a fresh install of High Sierra or just go back to Sierra and call it a day? Or maybe invest the time and do a clean install, but of Sierra? Oh boy...

A little trick I use to stop the bad connection Magic Mouse 2 (is it the MM2?), fold a small piece of paper and place it between the batteries and the metallic back. It holds the batteries in place and can prevent them slipping slightly on movement and thus disconnecting power, losing connection. It might not be your Mac but your Mouse? Worth a try...

And thanks for your thoughts. I think I am going to stay on 10.12.6 for now. Why fix what doesn't need fixing?
 
Last edited:

Crunch

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 26, 2008
701
75
Crazy L.A.
A little trick I use to stop the bad connection Magic Mouse 2 (is it the MM2?), fold a small piece of paper and place it between the batteries and the metallic back. It holds the batteries in place and can prevent them slipping slightly on movement and thus disconnecting power, losing connection. It might not be your Mac but your Mouse? Worth a try...

And thanks for your thoughts. I think I am going to stay on 10.12.6 for now. Why fix what doesn't need fixing?

That's so funny!!! I JUST did that very thing that you also proposed. Perhaps you were inter-dimensionally causing me to think about checking into the mouse directly? :-O

And I think you might be right. It looks like the problem is solved. Alright, so that means I'm staying on High Sierra then? haha...
 
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randomgeeza

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2014
479
293
United Kingdom
That's so funny!!! I JUST did that very thing that you also proposed. Perhaps you were inter-dimensionally causing me to think about checking into the mouse directly? :-O

And I think you might be right. It looks like the problem is solved. Alright, so that means I'm staying on High Sierra then? haha...

The Universe works in mysterious ways... Good that you might have fixed it too...
 

Crunch

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 26, 2008
701
75
Crazy L.A.
The Universe works in mysterious ways... Good that you might have fixed it too...

Update: It IS fixed! It was never High Sierra. Thank you.

Upgrading to High Sierra actually resolved a WiFi issue I'd had whenever I disconnected my WiFi repeater causing me to have to reboot my Mac to get re-connected. Good deal.

Another thing I like about HS is the "Lock Screen" menu item under the Apple menu. Not a big deal, but I'd often wanted a quick and immediate way to lock up my desktop when I walk away from my Mac.

So overall, it's working well enough for me to remain on 10.13.

Then again, the Gatekeeper BS in Sierra and High Sierra that makes you basically hack your Mac before you can install certain apps, or certain libraries needed to run certain apps, is disconcerting.

I wish my 2016 MacBook Pro ran on OS X 10.11.6.
 
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