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US shoots down RAF plane

Keep in mind too that this was not an accident of "friendly fire" as we know it. The Patriot misslie is not an offensive weapon but a defensive one. Not much solace, but it is something to consider that this was not an aggressive act that brought down the plane.
 
Originally posted by beatle888
the missiles dont rely on the factors above. they use an electronic signature. now that you know how it works, is it so hard to imagine an electronic device malfunctioning?
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Exactly, I was just watching a program that explained how the system functions..... and it appears that it could have been our Tornado that was at fault by experiencing a technical failure in that the plane didn't ID itself when requested to (all electronically done) as either friend or foe (unknown).

Let's just wait for the report from the investigation before we all start going off on one and accusing this and that etc etc!!
 
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
yeah, my dad was in the army for almost 30 years. though i don't think he would have specific knowledge about this type of case, he would certainly know the basics and could fill me in. that said, i would be very surprised to find out that it was a really simple mistake where a soldier just didn't see the target right or something... i mean, it was probably a little blip on the radar where no planes were thought to be at the time or something....
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Actually, it is quite possible to misidentify an airplane if it is going through the radar sweep at an unusual angle. The radar will return a different sig based on the surface presented. I'm not claiming to know any specific instance or example where a plane has been misidentified, I'm just saying that this is a logical possibility. After all, the B-2 was specifically designed to reduce the signature to almost nothing.
 
Originally posted by Kyle?
Actually, it is quite possible to misidentify an airplane if it is going through the radar sweep at an unusual angle. The radar will return a different sig based on the surface presented. I'm not claiming to know any specific instance or example where a plane has been misidentified, I'm just saying that this is a logical possibility. After all, the B-2 was specifically designed to reduce the signature to almost nothing.
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that was my point. so we agree!

and like igav said, and i'd heard earlier... there are systems to distinguish between friend and foe and apparently the plane didn't send out the signal or something.. we'll see
 
For information, the Tornado should have been transmitting a unique 4-digit code that the Patriot battery should have been programmed with, additionally the Tornado should have been flying in a safety corridor, and transmitting a radar signiture to identify it as a plane, not a missile.

The Patriot system can target and fire automatically, especially when expecting incoming missiles, there may not have been a human in the loop, and this may have been a hardware fault or a software glitch.

This from the BBC News 24 channel.
 
It's just been confirmed that US military have opened fire on and killed at least one British news reporter (two others missing).
At this rate the Iraqi's won't need to put up much resistance.
 
Originally posted by Ensign Paris
It might just be me, but I do not find it acceptable that with all your technology you manage to mistake a plane for a missile, they are very different, different size, different shape, different emmisions.

This was an avoidable accident, I know it wasn't meditated or planed in anyway, and i accept that accidents do happen, and I could understand a friendly fire accident on the ground during the night when there was no indication about who was firing towards you and you just fire back, but this (as far as I know) was during day light hours, and for gods sake, its a plane! not a missile! they are different!

Sorry for all this ranting, IMHO americans are not stupid btw.

Ensign
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Ensign, I have to say that my heart goes out to the families of the men in that Tornado. That is a fine craft, and I am sure that the did their jobs with honor, and commitment that was second to none. Fratricide is part of war. It is also one of the most difficult parts of war to accept.

That being said, another poster asked about Saddam's airforce. yes, he has one, and it has Mig 21's and 29's, as well as 25's and SU 27's. The Mig 21 has a Radar signature that is very similar to the Tornado. Movements could have made things look suspicious, and with over 1,000 aircraft in the air, it can be hard to tell what is going on. Not a justification, but an explanation. Remember the Patriot was designed for Anti-aircraft. Not anti-missile.
 
Originally posted by WinterMute
For information, the Tornado should have been transmitting a unique 4-digit code that the Patriot battery should have been programmed with, additionally the Tornado should have been flying in a safety corridor, and transmitting a radar signiture to identify it as a plane, not a missile.

The Patriot system can target and fire automatically, especially when expecting incoming missiles, there may not have been a human in the loop, and this may have been a hardware fault or a software glitch.

This from the BBC News 24 channel.
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That is even more scarry:confused:
 
In an operation of this size, there are bound to be a huge number of screwups, of both major and minor consequence. That is the nature of bureaucracy and planning. I have a friend who served in Gulf War I, in an isolated area of northern Iraq. Somehow the brass neglected to supply them adequately with some essentials, like food. Ironically they managed to feed themselves by raiding the French camp. Apparently the food was excellent.

Of course there are ways problems like this can be avoided altogether.
 
Originally posted by charboneau
Ironically they managed to feed themselves by raiding the French camp. Apparently the food was excellent.
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Finally! The real reason the Bush administration was so upset at France for not coming along for the ride!
 
more...

Apparently, two Television vehicles were being chased by two iraqi vehicles, they were spotted by the coalition who observed one of the vehicles to contain iraqi soldiers. The UK or USA decided to let all four vehicles have some. eek.
 
Re: more...

Originally posted by kettle
Apparently, two Television vehicles were being chased by two iraqi vehicles, they were spotted by the coalition who observed one of the vehicles to contain iraqi soldiers. The UK or USA decided to let all four vehicles have some. eek.
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You have a link? That doesn't surprise me that the US or UK would be worried about all the vehicles, especially with the deception the Iraqi soldiers have used arlready.

D
 
Re: Re: more...

Originally posted by dukestreet
You have a link? That doesn't surprise me that the US or UK would be worried about all the vehicles, especially with the deception the Iraqi soldiers have used arlready.

D
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The report that I am hearing is that they were caught in crossfire. That would make sense. Still war is dangerous. Mistakes happen. They are tragic, and sad, but the reporters know the risk when they go out there.
 
Re: Re: Re: more...

Originally posted by Backtothemac
The report that I am hearing is that they were caught in crossfire. That would make sense. Still war is dangerous. Mistakes happen. They are tragic, and sad, but the reporters know the risk when they go out there.
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Well, that's the case for anyone in a combat zone. And laying blame and calling people names because of a mistake is not the correct approach here. Its tragic, true, but to paraphrase, 'He who hasn't made a mistake before, cast the first stone'

Anyone, from any nation, could make a deadly mistake and there are probably more than a few examples that are go far beyond this. Try not to lose sight of this.

D
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: more...

Originally posted by dukestreet
Well, that's the case for anyone in a combat zone. And laying blame and calling people names because of a mistake is not the correct approach here. Its tragic, true, but to paraphrase, 'He who hasn't made a mistake before, cast the first stone'

Anyone, from any nation, could make a deadly mistake and there are probably more than a few examples that are go far beyond this. Try not to lose sight of this.

D
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Maybe I am scanning to quickly or something, but who was calling people names? i think I missed something here.
 
Originally posted by iJon
have you ever been in the military, please, just yes or no?

iJon
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I haven't, not really about to since I am only 16. It might sound like I am having a go, but I just think that this could have been an avoidable accident. A very sad one.

Ensign
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: more...

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Maybe I am scanning to quickly or something, but who was calling people names? i think I missed something here.
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eye deleted it from the 1st page, scroll down and look for 'red'.

ensign - accidents are all unfortunate, and with hindsight, all can be avoided. Try not to take it personally and think about how the soldiers who press the button or pull the trigger might feel.

D
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: more...

Originally posted by dukestreet
eye deleted it from the 1st page, scroll down and look for 'red'.

ensign - accidents are all unfortunate, and with hindsight, all can be avoided. Try not to take it personally and think about how the soldiers who press the button or pull the trigger might feel.

D
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Oh, I never saw the original post. I thought you were saying that I had done something like that ;)
 
I am trying not to take it personally, it was a horrible accident, but I just don't like the fact that we are loosing people, people are dying, its horrible.

I am not anti-war, infact I am more pro this war that most people, but I just feel sad that we are loosing people at the hands of ourselves rather than at the hands of the enemy, it just makes me wonder if our technology is all that good.

Anyway, i guess we will move on, regroup and rebuild. Thats life, **** happens and I have to accept it, I just don't want to.

:) Sorry for creating a bit of a controversial thread.

Ensign
 
Originally posted by Ensign Paris
I am trying not to take it personally, it was a horrible accident, but I just don't like the fact that we are loosing people, people are dying, its horrible.

I am not anti-war, infact I am more pro this war that most people, but I just feel sad that we are loosing people at the hands of ourselves rather than at the hands of the enemy, it just makes me wonder if our technology is all that good.

Anyway, i guess we will move on, regroup and rebuild. Thats life, **** happens and I have to accept it, I just don't want to.

:) Sorry for creating a bit of a controversial thread.

Ensign
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To the contrary, I think it is a great thread. The tech is unreal actually, but no matter how great that tech gets, people build it, and control it. Mistakes will happen. It is tragic, and again, my prayers are with their families, and with your great country.
 
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