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So Intel is finally getting off their butts and going back their original vision with lightpeak.

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No wait it's worst. From the article it sounds that its only going to be an add on card. Its not a simple pcie expansion card that you can just drop in like you would for usb3. Motherboards must meet minimum specs, rendering it IMO useless to increase adoption. People would still have to buy a new computer/motherboard.
 
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Why do people on here defend thunderbolt so much? Right now at this moment its an expensive port with very limited accessories. Who cares what it theoretically can do when there isn't any actual real products that utilize it.
 
Why do people on here defend thunderbolt so much?
People need to justify their expensive purchases and want to feel that they have something special.
I don't believe Apple will hesitate to ditch TB when they feel the time is right. They did it with fw, audio input and EC slot. The last one was replaced by sd-card slot. Now, which one was more powerfull or versatile?
 
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People need to justify their expensive purchases and want to feel that they have something special.
I don't believe Apple will hesitate to ditch TB when they feel the time is right. They did it with fw and EC slot. The latter was replaced by sd-card slot. Now, which one was more powerfull or versatile?

One thing to remember is that Thunderbolt supports optical cables, USB doesn't. It's more of a pro use case, but only Thunderbolt will allow you to connect at 20GBPS to a storage array stored in a closet 100 feet away.
 
So Intel is finally getting off their butts and going back their original vision with lightpeak.

edit:

No wait it's worst. From the article it sounds that its only going to be an add on card. Its not a simple pcie expansion card that you can just drop in like you would for usb3. Motherboards must meet minimum specs, rendering it IMO useless to increase adoption. People would still have to buy a new computer/motherboard.
It's not the first time a Thunderbolt expansion card has been made. You're still going to need to passthrough the DisplayPort signal and a control cable.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5935/asus-thunderbolt-ex-upgrade-card-for-7series-motherboards
 
Thunderbolt has its place..... USB has its place. They are both useful interfaces with some crossover in functionality. I, for one, am glad they are both available.
 
One thing to remember is that Thunderbolt supports optical cables, USB doesn't. It's more of a pro use case, but only Thunderbolt will allow you to connect at 20GBPS to a storage array stored in a closet 100 feet away.
Wrong, you can get optical extension cables to every standard and socket. (Heard about a company called Gefen? Didn't google e.g. "usb optical extension"?...)
And that's what 100 feet TB cable is. TB is copper based and opical cable is just extender. Just like with hdmi, dvi, displayport, etc.

But really, how many mac users need to have 20Gbit (not GB, which is gigabytes) connection 100 feet away? Macs have been going further away from pro all the time. Pro machines have all kind of sockets for convenient just-in-case use. Macs are about good looks and sockets doesn't look (according to Johnny). TB exists in macs solely to move some ports hiding behind Apple's monitor. If 1 out of 100 mac users need more bandwidth than usb3, Apple wouldn't care about it. Like they didn't care with audio input, firewire, EC slot or PCIe slots.
 
Thunderbolt has its place..... USB has its place. They are both useful interfaces with some crossover in functionality. I, for one, am glad they are both available.

Replace Thunderbolt with an HDMI port and ill take that and some USB ports rather than have to have a thunderbolt port, converter cable and box that add $$$ to the cost of getting the signal out,.

All thunderbolt seems to do in every scenario i can think off is add costly steps to connect devices that are costly because they are thunderbolt.

Take away the thunderbolt and you can get the same performance, at a fraction the cost from USB, e-sata, HDMI etc etc..
 
If 1 out of 100 mac users need more bandwidth than usb3, Apple wouldn't care about it. Like they didn't care with audio input, firewire, EC slot or PCIe slots.

You're far too caught up in bandwidth alone. Not that Usb has better bandwidth than thunderbolt anyway.

Usb and Thunderbolt can co-exist together. As people have pointed out multiple times in this thread, both have their advantages, and disadvantages.

Some of the advantages of Thunderbolt include it's latency, it's lower overhead, the fact that it's a PCIe signal outside of the box, complete with displayport all going over one cable that can be daisy-chained work in it's favour. I understand you may not have any use for this, but other people do.

Being able to have something like Pro-Tools HD Native running on your workstation in your studio, and being able to pick up the interface and plug it into your laptop and take it with you is an extremely amazing thing. And something that usb simply does not offer.
 
USB and and especially e-sata does not have the same performance.

If you plug a Sata drive, into a Sata enclosure, connected to thunderbolt, you get the same performance as connecting the same drive to e-sata,

You only get the performance of the slowest link in the chain
 
If you plug a Sata drive, into a Sata enclosure, connected to thunderbolt, you get the same performance as connecting the same drive to e-sata,

You only get the performance of the slowest link in the chain

That's a good point, but what I said is still true in regards to the rated speed.
 
Wrong, you can get optical extension cables to every standard and socket. (Heard about a company called Gefen? Didn't google e.g. "usb optical extension"?...)

GMAFB, if you want to start bringing in 3rd party accessories that's one thing, but USB does NOT have optical capability built in. It's not in the spec. Optical interconnect has been part of the thunderbolt spec since it was created.

But really, how many mac users need to have 20Gbit (not GB, which is gigabytes)

I'm well aware of that, thank you very much, excuse me for leaving my finger on the "shift" key for 0.08 seconds too long while I typed.

As for how many mac users need to have 20Gbps-- when the retina (4k) Thunderbolt displays come out that question will be answered fairly quickly.

Macs have been going further away from pro all the time.

I suppose the same could be said for almost any industry as technology advances. SLR's sure have been getting easier to use these days; you don't even have to spend days in a darkroom anymore. Have Canon and Nikon abandoned their pro users by making photography easier?


Pro machines have all kind of sockets for convenient just-in-case use. Macs are about good looks and sockets doesn't look (according to Johnny).

Your arguments are based on emotion and not logic.
 
Now that's an understatement! Devices that use thunderbolt are MUCH MORE expensive and MUCH LESS readily available. For anyone other than the rare pro user thunderbolt is useless.

That's for the most part ridiculous. Yes, it is more expensive. But it's like saying a car is a useless POS because a motorcycle is cheaper. A car does things a motorcycle cannot do. Thunderbolt does things even the "same speed" USB 3.1 cannot do. Thunderbolt 2 will do those things twice as fast. USB cannot run video, ethernet, and data through one cable. Nor can it daisy chain 5 other devices.

Very casual users can ignore Thunderbolt, just like they did Firewire, but for pro users or the more-than-casual-user, it's fantastic.
 
That's for the most part ridiculous. Yes, it is more expensive. But it's like saying a car is a useless POS because a motorcycle is cheaper. A car does things a motorcycle cannot do. Thunderbolt does things even the "same speed" USB 3.1 cannot do. Thunderbolt 2 will do those things twice as fast. USB cannot run video, ethernet, and data through one cable. Nor can it daisy chain 5 other devices.

Very casual users can ignore Thunderbolt, just like they did Firewire, but for pro users or the more-than-casual-user, it's fantastic.

No it is like saying that a Ferrari (Thunderbolt) is useless to me because I can not afford one. I have gained zero benefit from having a thunderbolt port. And I would venture to guess that is what 99% of mac users would say.
 
No it is like saying that a Ferrari (Thunderbolt) is useless to me because I can not afford one. I have gained zero benefit from having a thunderbolt port. And I would venture to guess that is what 99% of mac users would say.

Except it's not the equivalent price of a Ferrari. You can buy a Seagate Thunderbolt Adapter for $99 new and use Thunderbolt with any bare drive, swap them in and out as you wish just like a USB flash drive, but terrabytes at a time. That's not so much more than a USB external hard drive that it's outrageous. Especially when you also note that USB 3.1 isn't on the market yet. And if you used a Thunderbolt Display, it connects to Macs with the Thunderbolt cable, carrying video, data, and Internet in one cable. You can run external cards with Thunderbolt cables instead of worrying about opening a Mac or not having the extra expansion slots, professionals do in many industries.

So again, just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's useless. Firewire wasn't widely used by casual Mac owners but it was huge benefit for anyone who cared to learn how it worked and what it's benefits were. And yes, Firewire was more expensive than USB also.
 
ProToolsHDNative_Oview_180xVariable1.png


http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-HD-native#hd_native

Something useful that's not a hard drive. You can use it with a laptop. I don't see that available for USB.
 
Except it's not the equivalent price of a Ferrari. You can buy a Seagate Thunderbolt Adapter for $99 new and use Thunderbolt with any bare drive, swap them in and out as you wish just like a USB flash drive, but terrabytes at a time. That's not so much more than a USB external hard drive that it's outrageous. Especially when you also note that USB 3.1 isn't on the market yet. And if you used a Thunderbolt Display, it connects to Macs with the Thunderbolt cable, carrying video, data, and Internet in one cable. You can run external cards with Thunderbolt cables instead of worrying about opening a Mac or not having the extra expansion slots, professionals do in many industries.

So again, just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's useless. Firewire wasn't widely used by casual Mac owners but it was huge benefit for anyone who cared to learn how it worked and what it's benefits were. And yes, Firewire was more expensive than USB also.

You are of course welcome to your opinion. But for me and the vast majority of Mac users thunderbolt is useless. There is a much smaller selection of Thunderbolt devices and those that exist are much more expensive than USB 3 devices, which is why it is useless for me and I would argue that vast majority of Mac users. I am sure professionals use it but does not help me nor other users.
 
No it is like saying that a Ferrari (Thunderbolt) is useless to me because I can not afford one. I have gained zero benefit from having a thunderbolt port. And I would venture to guess that is what 99% of mac users would say.

That's fine. But whats the harm in having it right there alongside the USB3 ports? They haven't taken away USB.....
 
You're far too caught up in bandwidth alone. Not that Usb has better bandwidth than thunderbolt anyway.

Usb and Thunderbolt can co-exist together. As people have pointed out multiple times in this thread, both have their advantages, and disadvantages.

Some of the advantages of Thunderbolt include it's latency, it's lower overhead, the fact that it's a PCIe signal outside of the box, complete with displayport all going over one cable that can be daisy-chained work in it's favour. I understand you may not have any use for this, but other people do.
Of course they can co-exist. The question is will this be beneficial for most users in the future. If high quality device makers focus on higher priced devices, the gap between "high grade" and "consumer grade" will be wider. In many fields we already see a problem, that consumer devices are dirt cheap, but if you want even a little bit more quality, you'll have to pay 10x or more. To get best of both worlds we need to have good quality with good prices and especially with huge volumes.
GMAFB, if you want to start bringing in 3rd party accessories that's one thing, but USB does NOT have optical capability built in. It's not in the spec. Optical interconnect has been part of the thunderbolt spec since it was created.

I suppose the same could be said for almost any industry as technology advances. SLR's sure have been getting easier to use these days; you don't even have to spend days in a darkroom anymore. Have Canon and Nikon abandoned their pro users by making photography easier?

Your arguments are based on emotion and not logic.
No, my arguments are based on a very simply logics.
Macs would be better & cheaper (for most users) without TB. Then macs would always have the latest gen DP and Apple would have to focus more on making usb3 work better. Now macs have way more interoperability problems with usb3 than other computers.
Also if device makers would focus on making usb3/3.1 connected high quality devices, they would become a whole lot cheaper than TB devices will ever get with same quality level. Just simple economics of scale.

And no, optical interconnect is not in TB specs and has never been. "Light port" prototypes used optical cables, but now "the optical TB cable" will be strictly "3rd party accessories" (Corning & Sumimoto). Even those are not yet on the market and it is not sure at all that they will be on market a long time. Well, same thing conserns all TB products...

SLRs are very good example on how offering same tech for consumers and pros makes prices lower. For example canon's EF zooms would be multiple times more expensive, if they were used only by pros. Just check out the price for similiar professional video or cinema lenses.
Image

http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-HD-native#hd_native

Something useful that's not a hard drive. You can use it with a laptop. I don't see that available for USB.
External PCI has enabled using normal pci cards with laptops a long time.
So, in that sense TB offers nothing new. But if TB would have been made cheap & widely used in industry, it could have became a whole lot cheaper than external pci, which remained to be expensive niche.
(Btw, funny that Avid doesn't publish TB latency. Or is it really same than with internal pci card? Latency chart also tells how "horrible" the latency with usb is. Fw has been told to be way better than usb and that's why users still want to use their fw devices. Usb2 latency is 7ms, fw 5ms and pcie is 1-3ms. I'd guess that usb3 latency is on same level than fw and usb3.1 will be even better. So actually the latency differences might be about 1ms. Is this so very important for so many?)
No it is like saying that a Ferrari (Thunderbolt) is useless to me because I can not afford one. I have gained zero benefit from having a thunderbolt port. And I would venture to guess that is what 99% of mac users would say.
For most mac users TB is more like saying that you need Ferrari to drive 65mph. I'm not arguing that you can't drive 65mph with Ferrari, but most people are happy that they don't need Ferrari for that, since they couldn't afford it.
I'd guess that the ratio is that about 1% really need TB, 4% like to use it, even it's not mandatory for them and 95% does not use it at all or use it just like DP/fw/usb port.
Again maybe most of that 1% would be just fine with workstation with storage and pcie cards inside. So TB becomes a must for them only because Apple didn't care about MP for so long and killed expansion from laptops by removing EC slot. Those pros that really can benefit from carrying 5 small boxes instead of one big box have to be very small group. Same thing for those who really need power, but can't afford a desktop workstation and therefore can use their laptop "like desktop workstation" with TB.
 
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And no, optical interconnect is not in TB specs and has never been. "Light port" prototypes used optical cables, but now "the optical TB cable" will be strictly "3rd party accessories" (Corning & Sumimoto). Even those are not yet on the market and it is not sure at all that they will be on market a long time. Well, same thing conserns all TB products...

Optical is necessary to move it forward, I think everyone involved is aware of that fact. Copper is cheaper currently and the optical cables are needed only to gain cable length, not speed at this point in time. The speed that was touted before copper was decided on was 100Gb/s, not possible on copper.

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But if TB would have been made cheap & widely used in industry, it could have became a whole lot cheaper than external pci, which remained to be expensive niche.

It's likely much cheaper, a Thunderbolt controller costs $10.

(Btw, funny that Avid doesn't publish TB latency. Or is it really same than with internal pci card?

Apogee have, 1.8ms at 96KHz. Figures close to that have been possible even with FireWire (Metric Halo), the largest contributor to latency here is not hardware, but the buffer that needs to be in place for the CPU to be able to keep up.
 
Optical is necessary to move it forward, I think everyone involved is aware of that fact. Copper is cheaper currently and the optical cables are needed only to gain cable length, not speed at this point in time. The speed that was touted before copper was decided on was 100Gb/s, not possible on copper.
Again, one thing that TB messed up. Intel's original idea was to mainstream optical interconnect just like what sony did with s/pdif. If every second computer on the planet would have Light Peak elecro-optical converter they would be really cheap. Then all cables could be just passive optical cables, when they would be also cheap and work also with future generations of Light Peak. Now we have expensive active cables and you have to buy new cables with every version of TB. This is pretty much dead end, since people don't want to upgrade to TB3 (or whatever version they might introduce the real optical interconnect) because it will obsolete all their expensive purchases made before.
If Intel and Apple would have chosen the "Light Peak way" from the beginning, it would have been maybe even more expensive from the start, but it would became slowly cheaper when more devices are sold. Now the jump for optical will be maybe even too hard. It will obslolete all existing hardware or at least some kind of adapter to every device.
It's likely much cheaper, a Thunderbolt controller costs $10.
Controller cost is pretty much irrelevant. If designing a new device costs one million bucks and you'll sell 10 000 devices then r&d costs are $100 per sold device. This is why TB devices are expensive now, even if Intel would give controllers for free. And as long as TB sockets are not appearing to other computers than macs, things won't change.
Again, since controller costs are irrelevant, Light Peak would have been better choise even if controller+converter would have costed 5x more. Only logical reason why Apple wanted lower cost solution would be that they knew that very few would use it or it was just designed to connect to Apple's own display. I'd guess the latter one, since how else you could explain exclusivity for TB, if you'd want it to be widely accepted in the industry?
Apogee have, 1.8ms at 96KHz. Figures close to that have been possible even with FireWire (Metric Halo), the largest contributor to latency here is not hardware, but the buffer that needs to be in place for the CPU to be able to keep up.
Since I come from visual side of moving pictures, the smallest time for me is one frame, which is 40ms. Care to enlighten me, why is it important if latency is 2ms or 5 ms?
Btw, usb3 has "Improved bus utilization – a new feature is added (using packets NRDY and ERDY) to let a device asynchronously notify the host of its readiness (no need for polling)" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb3 ), so it should be much better than usb2 for audio equipment.
Is there any high quality audio cards with usb3?
 
Again, one thing that TB messed up. Intel's original idea was to mainstream optical interconnect just like what sony did with s/pdif.

Sorry s/pdif is several orders of magnitude slower, it supports audio at audio sampling frequencies up to 96KHz only. For two channels that's about 0.6MB/s. They picked copper because it was significantly cheaper.

Now we have expensive active cables and you have to buy new cables with every version of TB. This is pretty much dead end, since people don't want to upgrade to TB3 (or whatever version they might introduce the real optical interconnect) because it will obsolete all their expensive purchases made before.

Not true, Thunderbolt v2 is supported on v1 cables. If v3 is optical going to PCIe v3 for example, the cable transceiver can be switched for a silicon photonics module. Such a cable is backwards compatible with current standards.

Controller cost is pretty much irrelevant. If designing a new device costs one million bucks and you'll sell 10 000 devices then r&d costs are $100 per sold device. This is why TB devices are expensive now, even if Intel would give controllers for free. And as long as TB sockets are not appearing to other computers than macs, things won't change.
Again, since controller costs are irrelevant, Light Peak would have been better choise even if controller+converter would have costed 5x more.

Going along with that theory why do you think R&D costs would be lower with optical, it does seem like a more expensive technology at this point in time which is why they settled for copper after all.

Since I come from visual side of moving pictures, the smallest time for me is one frame, which is 40ms. Care to enlighten me, why is it important if latency is 2ms or 5 ms?
Btw, usb3 has "Improved bus utilization – a new feature is added (using packets NRDY and ERDY) to let a device asynchronously notify the host of its readiness (no need for polling)" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb3 ), so it should be much better than usb2 for audio equipment.
Is there any high quality audio cards with usb3?

It's important if it's used for direct monitoring, but 2 or 5 may not make much difference. But I posted the figure since you asked, 1.8ms is the stated latency for their PCIe card as well, so Thunderbolt doesn't add any meaningful latency at all compared to using the card by it self. For a reference ProTools TDM has a 2.4ms latency, and that's a DSP solution.

While USB might look good on paper it does not perform consistently as good, as the design goals are not the same. If you are using small buffer sizes to get low latency you need consistency, as one dropped sample means a loud pop, and the take is ruined.
 
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