Valve Warns of Gaming Performance Issues With NVIDIA Graphics Cards on Mac OS X 10.6.4

[TuffLuffJimmy]

This forum is not like Digg or Slashdot where users can vote-down comments. So people either have to call out those who are making unfair comments or let the comments stand unanswered. I'd rather just see the ability to vote people "off the island" if they never have anything constructive to add.

That's not really how web forums work though. This is a place for anyone to have discussion, it doesn't have to stem from an article.

 

[azazel-]

Soo...

I'm just not understanding...

Why is this the end-of-all-things-gaming on OS X...when it could be easily fixed with a simple driver update? You know, the sort of driver update that happens periodically when the nVidia-released WHQL drivers for Windows that sometimes completely *FSCK* up performance in various gaming titles and cause a myriad array of other assorted problems?

What am I missing here, other than waiting for Apple to push out some updated vidcard drivers? That is, aside from the juvenile little cockbags that like to come and troll these forums looking for anything they can possibly bitch about.

(Also aside from the fact that most of the Mac Steam titles are utter **** right now. Other than a few indie titles, I've tired of most of the available games years ago.)

 

[Amdahl]

I started working in software development in a paid, full-time position in 1980. I have been continuously employed in the tech sector ever since (I currently develop hardware and software to test satellites). I started using the Internet when it was still the Arpanet.

So forgive me for not being impressed at how long you've been a member of a web site that came into existence 20 years after I entered the computer field.

Why would I need to forgive you? It was your argument, and I just pointed out how stupid it is.

Take that up with the person to whom I was replying. He brought up the years-of-experience issue, not me.

Maybe you should re-read your post:

Then you lack experience. I've been a computer professional since 1980, working on Windows PCs since Windows/286 and have lost count of the number of horrific problems caused by Windows updates over the years, with some rendering many PCs unbootable.

 

[parapup]

I have spent far too many hours fixing Windows problems that should never have occurred. Prior to OS X and Intel-based Macs, I was anti-Mac. My affinities and dislikes are based on technical merit, not bias, loyalty, or any of that other crap that simply clouds rational judgment.

Care to explain the problems you have had with any modern version of Windows? I would not open a dialog if you were just like the other non-techie crowd for whom it's all black and white - Windows sucks or OSX is a Toy. But since you mentioned technical merits I have to ask - like what?

(I just ditched OSX on 2 of my Macs for Windows 7 - one due to lack of TRIM support in 2010 and other due to excessive memory usage for my workload.)

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Why would I need to forgive you? It was your argument, and I just pointed out how stupid it is.

I hate to hop into your argument, but his statement was only in defense of your silly argument that somehow someone being a member for longer makes their opinion more relevant.

You're definitely a pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Amdahl]

I hate to hop into your argument, but his statement was only in defense of your silly argument that somehow someone being a member for longer makes their opinion more relevant.

You're definitely a pot calling the kettle black.

Then perhaps you didn't catch the intended(and perhaps unclear) sarcasm of my post, which was, how does 30 years of 'PC' experience (Windows/286, wowza!) give one the authority to question the 'experience' of another user who says they have never had any problems with Windows Updates (which have only existed as an automatic service about 10 years)? It is not relevant.

I picked that sarcasm, because in the following post, he had responded to me(I was defending Windows) with how great Macs are. But I'm obviously not a new Mac user.

 

[Xenu007]

Good thing I just finished Portal Level 19

...before Apple screwed it up.

 

[fmaxwell]

Then perhaps you didn't catch the intended(and perhaps unclear) sarcasm of my post, which was, how does 30 years of 'PC' experience (Windows/286, wowza!) give one the authority to question the 'experience' of another user who says they have never had any problems with Windows Updates (which have only existed as an automatic service about 10 years)?

Oh, okay, then I was wrong. Windows is flawless because some random forum user has not had any problems with it. And no update, whether pushed down through the web or distributed on floppy or CD, has ever resulted in a decrease in performance, reliability, or resulted in a recommendation from any vendor that one wait for a patch before upgrading.

And that's how one makes sarcasm more clear.

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

Are we Apples beta testers, or what!?

It might be a coincidence; it might not. But after updating to 10.6.4, I've had Half-Life 2 periodically drop in framerates for a few seconds at a time. It's really frustrating.

This has nothing to do with games:
EyeTV obviously skips frames (25 fps in Europe) and stops the playback for several seconds from time to time. The recordings seem to be not affected by this behaviour, so i think it has something to do with Quartz/OpenGL. I think this did never happen before i installed 10.6.4.

It looks like we are Apples beta testers.

 

[fmaxwell]

I hate to hop into your argument, but his statement was only in defense of your silly argument that somehow someone being a member for longer makes their opinion more relevant.

You're definitely a pot calling the kettle black.

Thank you.

If someone is going to cite their personal experience as evidence that Windows is rock-solid, then it's only fair to question that experience and counter with my own. For all I know, he started using Windows a year ago.

I'm just not understanding...

Why is this the end-of-all-things-gaming on OS X...when it could be easily fixed with a simple driver update? You know, the sort of driver update that happens periodically when the nVidia-released WHQL drivers for Windows that sometimes completely *FSCK* up performance in various gaming titles and cause a myriad array of other assorted problems?

What am I missing here, other than waiting for Apple to push out some updated vidcard drivers? That is, aside from the juvenile little cockbags that like to come and troll these forums looking for anything they can possibly bitch about.

You aren't missing anything. You hit the nail on the head.

I think you're full of crap Mr. Computer professional. WTF constitutes a computer professional anyways, I've never heard of that job title.

It's not a job title. Job titles are capitalized. That should have been your first clue.

I started out doing firmware development on embedded systems that supported near-infrared spectrophotometers in 1980. Since that time, I have developed firmware which controlled custom printing terminals for NIH, graphics digitizing tablet firmware, software and firmware for systems which supported the U.S. Postal Service's computerized mail sortation and postal product vending, headed up a team doing an NSA evaluated C2 secure version of a PC workstation (designing both the hardware and software architecture), and developed software on system which monitored electrical energy usage, producing bills for each tenant in large apartment and office buildings. I am currently working at a firm which builds satellites, probes, rockets, and ground support hardware. I design some of the ground support hardware as well as writing software that has been used to test satellites and the Dawn space probe. I've been at that firm for five years now.

Still feeling frisky?

For the third time nVidia already has an updated driver on their site for people using the 285 GTX. Go download it. I've posted the link twice in this thread already.

And how will he install that on the Windows PC he's trolling from?

 

[krzyglue]

Why would I tire of having a stable, reliable, responsive system?

Since switching to Macs a little under two years ago, I've had just about zero problems. I don't have a registry that mysteriously grows with incomprehensible, purposely obfuscated entries. I've not seen issues with my system boot times getting slower and slower. I've not had to deal with dubious third-party registry "cleaners" and defragmenters. I don't have to choose the least reprehensible backup software because the Mac ships with the best in the industry. When I wanted to run striped RAID and concatenated RAID (2 x 1TB WD Black striped as the system volume and 2 x 2TB green drives for the Time Machine backup drive), I didn't have to turn to some flaky third-party chip manufacturer for drivers -- it was built into OS X. When I moved from one Mac to another, I just attached my Time Machine external drive and the installation restored all of my files, applications, and settings -- with no need to reinstall anything. When I wanted to have a "rescue disk," I plugged in a USB WD Passport 160GB drive I had lying around, installed OS X to it, and it was bootable -- no hassles, problems, or need to search for legally questionable hacks.

I don't know what planet you compute on, but here on Earth, Macs are gaining in popularity because they are so much more stable and trouble-free than are Windows PCs.

- You said the registry cleaners were dubious, so I don't see what you had to do to "deal" with them: just don't install any of them.

- "flaky" third-party chip manufacturer? Because Intel, AMD, or NVIDIA (the chipset manufacturers in the vast majority of motherboards, which provide software RAID) are flaky, third-party manufacturers. Oh, and I'd suggest you not go with RAID 0, especially as a Time Machine drive. If one drive in the array goes, you lose the data on both... RAID 5 ftw.

 

[krzyglue]

Anyhow back on topic, I don't think it will prove to be that large an issue. Just a question, is Nvidia allowed to release their own drivers of some sort, for OSX users to download? (besides for the GTX 285) Or does Apple not allow this?

 

[gumbyx84]

Anyhow back on topic, I don't think it will prove to be that large an issue. Just a question, is Nvidia allowed to release their own drivers of some sort, for OSX users to download? (besides for the GTX 285) Or does Apple not allow this?

I believe any updates to core drivers have to be approved by Apple. I know this is true for graphic drivers. That is one of the reason it takes so long for update drivers to be released.

 

[krzyglue]

I believe any updates to core drivers have to be approved by Apple. I know this is true for graphic drivers. That is one of the reason it takes so long for update drivers to be released.

Hmm, so on average, is it the actual development process (on the part of Nvidia) that takes so long, or is it Apple's approval process? I'm just thinking that from what I know, the AppStore approval process is pretty speedy.

 

[ranReloaded]

Last time I checked graphics drivers were supposed to get better with the new release, right? What happened?

Good I completed Portal with 10.3. Although I would have loved fullscreen AA on my 24 inch iMac...

 

[gumbyx84]

Hmm, so on average, is it the actual development process (on the part of Nvidia) that takes so long, or is it Apple's approval process? I'm just thinking that from what I know, the AppStore approval process is pretty speedy.

iPhone/Pod/Pad apps can't single-handedly make the device using/running them useless upon failure.

Last time I checked graphics drivers were supposed to get better with the new release, right? What happened?

Good I completed Portal with 10.3. Although I would have loved fullscreen AA on my 24 inch iMac...

10.3? Suprised you got it working on Panther.

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

OMFG Apple...

hahahahahaha

After about 100 10.6.4 seeds you release crap - great job!

Must be due to Flash and Adobe >_<

\o/


People - just fireup BootCamp and enjoy the gaming on your Mac

It really is as simple as that...

 

[lilo777]

OMFG Apple...

hahahahahaha

After about 100 10.6.4 seeds you release crap - great job!

Must be due to Flash and Adobe >_<

\o/


People - just fireup BootCamp and enjoy the gaming on your Mac

It really is as simple as that...

That's a very dangerous train of though. First you fire up BootCamp for gaming, then in no time you switch to Windows 7 for all your needs and then you start buying DELL or something

 

[mrochester]

This happens on the Mac about 1 vs 1000 on Windows. Yes, its a pain when it happens, but it gets fixed in usually about a week. Rule of thumb, never upgrade for 2 weeks after a major number change. I didn't follow that rule, and I am paying for it. Steam games frame rates are unplayable. LoTRo game lag is staggering. Safari crashes the first launch after every restart. Safari load times are horrible. Safari.... well as mentioned above. Get to know Firefox for a week or two.

Usually this is related to a rushed OS patch for new hardware, I'm not sure why they pushed this out before it's time. But they did, so find an old game that works and chill down for a week or two. It will all be over soon and just remember this is a monthly if not sooner occurrence on Win boxes - XP / 7. The good news is that it's getting worked on and definitely has Apple's attention.

Or simply use Time Machine on the Mac Mini server you've all purchased and roll back to before the update. Oh, you didn't do that ? Me either.

It's easier to forgive Microsoft since they support such a huge variety of hardware and hardware configurations. It's a pretty big embarrasment when Apple manage to cock it up even on their own very limited range of hardware.

 

[avkills]

I just yesterday bought the highest end MacBook Pro 17" - Core i7 with frickin 4GB of RAM.

Came home, started it up, installed FireFox, Eclipse, Vim. Eclipse startup took long time. Realized that it must be the 5400RPM HDD. But ran FireFox and it all went downhill - random pauses, lots of disk churn. Time to visit Activity Monitor. Holy crap - it's already swapping - 124 Mb pageouts and similar amount of swap used! 979 Mb Wired memory! Double mad.

Was about to go and return it - I don't want a $2.5K machine which can't run a browser/IDE/Editor and terminal without swapping. But then it struck me may be I should put Win 7 x64 on it and see. Exact same workload - and no slowdowns whatsoever! 1.4Gb RAM used (plenty of which is cache) with Eclipse running with Firefox and gvim plus some command windows.

This is the second machine in my house going to Win 7 - first one slowed to crawl after filling up the Intel SSD probably due to lack of TRIM support.

Apple need to get serious about OS X - otherwise they are just going to lose out big time. (Not sure they care but if they still sell it they must care I suppose.)

Spotlight is going to index your drive the minute you fire a new Mac up and go through all the "first boot" ****. I'm sorry to say, but you should have waited until Spotlight was done indexing before installing anything new. And it is your fault for ordering one with a slow 5400RPM drive; you know you can BTO with a 7200.

We have several pre i7 17" MBPs at work and they all work just fine running SL and VMware with only 4GB RAM. They all have 7200 drives in them also.

Your bitching when your post indicates that OS X was actually taking less RAM than Windows, so I'm not sure I believe you.

-mark

 

[Hurry jhon]

It's not your setup.. It's Steam...

Steam is the buggiest, most resource hungry piece of bloatware I've ever seen in my twenty long years in the business

I have a wired connection and if I'm downloading something and playing WoW at the same time, I can always tell when Steam starts to download an update...

 

[MH01]

I was running before I switched to a Mac less than two years ago. I have not regretted the switch for a moment. I don't miss the registry. I don't miss applications that write to the operating system directories. I don't miss DLLs that often step on one another as applications are installed with older and/or newer ones. I don't miss uninstall functions that leave countless files and registry entries. I don't miss explaining to someone in India why I should be allowed to run the copy of Windows I paid for after upgrading my motherboard, CPU, and RAM.

More positively, I like being able to switch to a new system, hook up an external Time Machine backup drive, and have all of my programs, files, and settings just migrate over. Being able to switch from a Mac Mini to a Mac Pro in a matter of a few unattended hours of restore was fantastic. Having a system for multiple virtual desktops that actually works well is great. Not having my system's boot process get slower and slower for no clear reason is excellent. Having an OS with a logical security policy designed in from the beginning (rather than pasted on later) is a good thing. I like having an OS scripting language that is actually powerful and a powerful command shell rather than some relic derived from MS-DOS.

You need to stop playing the role of Microsoft fanboy and just evaluate the OS on how well it works. I've used *MANY* operating systems (CP/M-80, TurboDOS, MS/PC-DOS, DR-DOS, GEM, BeOS, HDOS, Linux, QNX, Windows, OS X, Solaris, Free/Net/OpenBSD, etc.) and I don't have any interest in being some kind of cheerleader based on a need to reassure myself that I made the right decision.

So you have owned a mac for the last two years, and you are comparing an evolved OS against against some of the crap that M$ produced in the eighties. My Advice is get over it! I am sure that certain version of 95... oww the ME version come to mind have caused psychological damage to many IT users. So if you have used OS X in the last 2 years compare it to windows 7, not the crap that was produced in the past.

You mentioned that this is a minor bug....

First of all, taking windows 7 there are some 2000 graphics cards that are compatible with the OS

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/co...Cards & Components&subcategory=Graphics Cards

Given you need a Motherboard, RAM, CPU, PSU, GPU, HD and a Optical Drive to get up and running the combinations become staggering! I give windows 7 kudos for being as stable as it is.

Apple on the other hand, control the hardware and software, along with the drivers, I give them little slack for a fark up that degrades gaming performance on 1/2 their systems. After some 50+ bloody get a mac ads you can imagine why people have an image of why it should just work.

Now at to it being a minor bug. Are you serious about being a developer in the IT industry? Seems you have no concept of bug severity. This affects about 1/2 of the Apple systems, one of the Biggest companies in the gaming industry can come out and acknowledged the issue. And you think this is minor? This is embarrassing, Apple is now getting complaints from its users and treating this as a severity 1 bug. Lets have a bet, I predict that this is a severity 1 critical bug for Apple and we will see a new patch shortly. If you are right, and it a minor bug then this will be corrected in 10.6.5

 

[macintoshtoffy]

What is interesting is how there is a separate update for the new release of MacBook (Pro)/Mac Mini, how there has been a separate release specifically for the 2010 MacBook Pro laptop. I wonder therefore whether we're going to see a Nvidia driver in the next release (10.6.5) that'll hopefully clean up the clusterf-ck of a mess that is nVidia drivers.

 

[3rd Doctor]

I just yesterday bought the highest end MacBook Pro 17" - Core i7 with frickin 4GB of RAM.

Came home, started it up, installed FireFox, Eclipse, Vim. Eclipse startup took long time. Realized that it must be the 5400RPM HDD. But ran FireFox and it all went downhill - random pauses, lots of disk churn. Time to visit Activity Monitor. Holy crap - it's already swapping - 124 Mb pageouts and similar amount of swap used! 979 Mb Wired memory! Double mad.

Was about to go and return it - I don't want a $2.5K machine which can't run a browser/IDE/Editor and terminal without swapping. But then it struck me may be I should put Win 7 x64 on it and see. Exact same workload - and no slowdowns whatsoever! 1.4Gb RAM used (plenty of which is cache) with Eclipse running with Firefox and gvim plus some command windows.

This is the second machine in my house going to Win 7 - first one slowed to crawl after filling up the Intel SSD probably due to lack of TRIM support.

Apple need to get serious about OS X - otherwise they are just going to lose out big time. (Not sure they care but if they still sell it they must care I suppose.)

Spotlight will be indexing on your first startup.

 

[macintoshtoffy]

Apple should really go ATI. nVidia isn't doing so great

I wonder if the to-and-fro between Apple and ATI point to maybe an ATI chipset with an Intel processor - it would definitely get the DOJ off Intel's back if Intel is willing to license to their competitor.