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iGav

macrumors G3
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Mar 9, 2002
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The Vatican and the Catholic Church eh'... :rolleyes:

The Archbishop of Nairobi Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told Panaroma that condoms were helping to spread the virus.

"Aids...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms," he said.

and

"Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids," he said.

link it here....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3176982.stm

or full story about the loonies current rant.... :rolleyes:


Vatican in HIV condom row

Using a condom significantly reduces the risk of contracting HIV

The Catholic Church has been accused of telling people in countries with high rates of HIV that condoms do not protect against the deadly virus.

The claims are made in a Panorama programme called Sex and the Holy City to be screened on BBC One on Sunday.

It says cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns in four continents are saying HIV can pass through tiny holes in condoms.

The World Health Organization has condemned the comments and warned the Vatican it is putting lives at risk.

The claims come just a day after a report revealed that a young person is now infected with HIV every 14 seconds.

These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous

WHO Spokeswoman

According to the United Nations Population Fund, around 6,000 people between the ages of 15 and 24 catch the virus every day.

Half of all new infections are now in people under the age of 25 and most of these are young women living in the developing world.

Condom advice

Health experts around the world urge people to use condoms to protect themselves from HIV and a host of sexually transmitted infections.

However, the Catholic Church has consistently refused to back such calls. The Vatican is opposed to contraception and has advocated that people change their behaviour instead.

But according to Panorama, the Church is now telling people that condoms do not work.

In an interview, one of the Vatican's most senior cardinals Alfonso Lopez Trujillo suggested HIV could even pass through condoms.

"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom," he says.

Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids" he said.

Gordon Wambi, Aids activist

The cardinal, who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, suggests that governments should urge people not to use condoms.

"These margins of uncertainty...should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The programme includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choir master not to use condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

The Archbishop of Nairobi Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told Panaroma that condoms were helping to spread the virus.

"Aids...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms," he said.

In Kenya, one in five people are HIV positive.

Gordon Wambi, director of an Aids testing programme in Lwak, near Lake Victoria, told the programme that he could not distribute condoms because of opposition from the Catholic Church.

"Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids," he said.

According to Panaroma, the claims about condoms are repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

Claims condemned

The WHO condemned the Church's comments.

"These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people and currently affects around 42 million," a spokeswoman told the programme.

She said "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass.
 
Regardless of how one feels about the entire issue, I was particularly humored to learn that reportedly, the Vatican owned a Condom factory in Italy ~50 years ago...

This was reported in "LA Popessa" (Warner Books; May 1983, by Paul and Arlington, Rene Murphy;ISBN 0446512583), which is a controversial biography of Sister Mary Pascalina Lehnert, who had been Pope Pius XII's "housekeeper" for fifty years (which includes many years prior to him being elevated).


-hh
 
"consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%

Bad info is bad info, and to the extent anyone is spreading bad info they should knock it off. Whenever the Church fails to carefully guard against spreading untruths it diminishes its ability to speak the Truth. At my church, I've dealt with some situations involving urban legends making their way into our pulpit.

That said, when the best case scenario still gives you a 1 in 10 chance of contracting a horrible disease when using the "safe sex" method promoted by the public health folks, it seems like abstinence should be an important part of the disease control message.
 
Reducing the chance of infection by 90% only gives a 1 in 10 chance of being infected if the initial chance of being infected from having unprotected sex with an infected individual is 100%, which it isn't.
 
Originally posted by FriarTuck
That said, when the best case scenario still gives you a 1 in 10 chance of contracting a horrible disease when using the "safe sex" method promoted by the public health folks, it seems like abstinence should be an important part of the disease control message.


Agreed. The best method of disease control/pregnancy control is the "comprehensive" method of sex education: teach about contraceptives but also endorse abstinence as the only 100% effective solution.
 
Originally posted by FriarTuck
"consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%

Bad info is bad info, and to the extent anyone is spreading bad info they should knock it off. Whenever the Church fails to carefully guard against spreading untruths it diminishes its ability to speak the Truth. At my church, I've dealt with some situations involving urban legends making their way into our pulpit.

That said, when the best case scenario still gives you a 1 in 10 chance of contracting a horrible disease when using the "safe sex" method promoted by the public health folks, it seems like abstinence should be an important part of the disease control message.

When properly used it is over 90% effective.

Now understand, when people are not taught how to use them, or use them improperly, its effectiveness goes down.

My school teaches abstinence is (duh) 100% will not give you STD.

But they know that doesn't work well.

Why doesn't it work, because of hormones. Sorry guys, even more then when you were kids because of Milk and Cola.

atleast kids no how to use it.

As for the Vatican this is the first of many steps showing the Vatican is moving from:
<----|----> ___(Politically)
To:
<------|-->

Its a shift.

Besides this is a load.

I mean really,
Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids

What is that?

Who the heck says something with NO basis what so ever.

Condom Company: We just made there even less chance for STD's to infect you.
Evil Guy: Hey, Lets Lace the condoms with STD's!
Condom Company: ...Besides your a wacko why would we kill our consumers?
Evil Guy: Uhhh, because, ummm

:runs away:
 
Somebody want to e-mail that new show Mythbusters?

As they said, the myth can be more powerful that the truth and scientific evidence. (ie, Poprocks and cell phones at gas stations)

The church telling third-world people that condoms don't offer any protection against HIV, is utterly stoopid.

And will take uncounted years and dollars to correct, if ever -- since the myth the church started will always be around.

"Besides war and bioweapons, this statement from the Vatican should be one of the most effective forms of population control unleashed on the world this century."
 
This really puts the Vatican between a rock and a hard place. They have centuries of doctrine to protect, being against birth control of any kind. If the rhythm method is practied by catholics, then they would be safe from AIDS. The problem is that only a minority practice the age old safe sex method.
 
Originally posted by wdlove
If the rhythm method is practied by catholics, then they would be safe from AIDS.

Dude, really, talk about misinformation. The rhythm method isn't even 100% effective as a method of birth control , because it is possible for a woman to get pregnant while she is still off-peak. STD's, including AIDS, can be passed through any mucus membrane, including the mouth, the nose, male and female nether regions, and elsewhere. Fertilization of an egg is not necessary for contracting AIDS.
 
Speaking as a Catholic who isn't a wacko, stuff like this really upsets me. Generally the Vatican has been highly conservative, but when faced with scientific fact in recent years, they've at least tried to work within that framework.

That's why I've at least personally never heard of Catholics preaching Creationism, and they had to reconsider official doctrine on gays recently (going toward an "it's biological, so you can't help it, but you still shouldn't do anything about your urges" line).

This, though, is a steaming pile, and really unfortunate. I'm all for teaching abstinance as a guaranteed method of protection, but lying about the next best choice is flat-out stupid (not to mention highly unchristian).

And incidentally (sort of random side-note), the rythm method, if practiced in full-on religious style, is a highly effective HIV preventative--since you'll only ever practice the rythm method with your husband or wife, and you'll only ever be married to one person, there's only one person who will ever have any chance of giving you HIV. If they're clean, you're clean for life. If they're not, at least nobody else but you will get it from them.
 
Originally posted by Macco
Dude, really, talk about misinformation. The rhythm method isn't even 100% effective as a method of birth control , because it is possible for a woman to get pregnant while she is still off-peak. STD's, including AIDS, can be passed through any mucus membrane, including the mouth, the nose, male and female nether regions, and elsewhere. Fertilization of an egg is not necessary for contracting AIDS.

I'm not a Catholic, but my understanding is that it amounts to no sex. No sex equals no AIDS. According to the last research that I read AIDS has not been transmitted via the mouth or nose. At least no case has been documented to this point in time that I'm aware. If it does occur there would need to be an open sore. For AIDS to be transmitted there needs to be a blood to blood transfer. There are cases of blood sticks in hospitals while drawing blood or starting an IV. The health care worker is tested then and again in 6 months, even with this the risk is small.
 
Originally posted by Macco
Dude, really, talk about misinformation. The rhythm method isn't even 100% effective as a method of birth control , because it is possible for a woman to get pregnant while she is still off-peak.

I am Catholic, and it is my understanding that the rhythm method isn't taught anymore. I don't know what they call the new one, but it is all based on the woman's temperature and mucus production. We never checked out that method though. My wife's Protestant, so she takes the pill... (The american way, loopholes...:D) (However the pill isn't 100% birth control either. If you don't believe me, let me introduce you to my son Thomas. ;) :D)
 
Originally posted by Stelliform
My wife's Protestant, so she takes the pill... (The american way, loopholes...:D) (However the pill isn't 100% birth control either. If you don't believe me, let me introduce you to my son Thomas. ;) :D)

The most effective birth control method (aside from abstinence) is the intra-uterine device. 1% of women who have one installed get pregnant within one year of installation.

For the record, that's what birth control statistics mean. A birth control method that is "90% effective" means that out of one hundred women who use the method, ninety will not get pregnant within the first year of use.

Condoms are approximately 78% effective overall, but when used properly they are (IIRC) 92% effective. Add a spermicide and the numbers go up, but not dramatically.
 
Originally posted by wdlove
I'm not a Catholic, but my understanding is that it amounts to no sex. No sex equals no AIDS. According to the last research that I read AIDS has not been transmitted via the mouth or nose. At least no case has been documented to this point in time that I'm aware.

I'm pretty sure that the rhythm method involves having sex only when a woman is off her peak in her menstrual cycle. However, as I stated before, it is still possible for a woman to get pregnant off-peak.

Originally posted by Stelliform
I am Catholic, and it is my understanding that the rhythm method isn't taught anymore. I don't know what they call the new one, but it is all based on the woman's temperature and mucus production. We never checked out that method though. My wife's Protestant, so she takes the pill... (The american way, loopholes...:D) (However the pill isn't 100% birth control either. If you don't believe me, let me introduce you to my son Thomas. ;) :D)

You probably know more about the Catholic Church than I do, myself being a Jew and all, so if you are right this would mean that the Vatican currently advocates nothing but good old abstinence. It worked when people got married at age 16, but it doesn't really work in today's world

(BTW- better not let your son read this thread. Growing up thinking that you were born as a mistake can be very damaging to one's self-esteem!)
 
Originally posted by Macco
Vatican currently advocates nothing but good old abstinence. It worked when people got married at age 16, but it doesn't really work in today's world

(BTW- better not let your son read this thread. Growing up thinking that you were born as a mistake can be very damaging to one's self-esteem!)

I abstained until we got married at 21... It can be done. (Only 6 years ago... don't think that this happened decades ago ;)...) Also in college for kicks in the honors lounge on campus we took a quick poll to see who was a virgin. Surprisingly only 1 out of the 15 we asked were not virgins.... Granted these were honor students all with above average IQ's so you really cannot consider it a valid population sampling. But we all perceived that everybody else was having sex... And we were wrong....

Lastly on Thomas... , we were actually discussing the possibility of having another kid, the decision was kind of made for us. :D And he is only two... But you are making a very valid point here... As we age, do you think our kids will google and read all the things that we posted?!?! I couldn't imagine what I would do with all of the public musings and conversations that my father had in his late 20's! Wow... that is something to think about! :eek:
 
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