Verge: "Pro Developers Opting out of iPad Pro"

[NT1440]

How much are they moving from iPhone sales? See the problem?

No I don't see the problem. When one division in your company is making more in profit than the rest of the industry combined, and then the rest of your divisions (iPod excluded) are still healthily growing as well, I'm not sure how one can call that a problem.

 

[Piggie]

Because desktop/laptops, tablets/smartphones are different beasts. Biggest difference isn't size but interface. Desktop/laptop are all about keyboard and mouse but tablet/smartphone are all about touch. This requires a completely different design for the OS and the apps running on it.

Yes, you are correct, but that's just a user interface, no more.

You feel it would be impossible to program in a mouse pointer, resizable windows an icon layouts in iOS.

I'm sure a different user interface could be done within iOS.

 

[AdonisSMU]

These threads are alrways pretty clear on what 'professional' means:

A 'Professional' means a person who can't work on an iPad, such as an editor working on a 4K feature film.

A 'non professional' is a lesser person who deals with data which is small enough to fit on flash storage and be transferable via wifi, such as novels, school curricula, patient prescriptions, airliner flight manuals, or financial records for multinational corporations.

Hope that helps.

Lmao!!!! So basically the 95%.

Additionally, those people you listed arent any less professional than the video editors if the world and for them the iPad Pro is all the Pro they need. Even Apple uses the Pro for real work.

 

[MH01]

No I don't see the problem. When one division in your company is making more in profit than the rest of the industry combined, and then the rest of your divisions (iPod excluded) are still healthily growing as well, I'm not sure how one can call that a problem.

Research where iPad sales are now and where they were...drop = bad .. Hence my Opinion on why I think the IPad pro came along. If you disagree , no problem , you are not convienceing me otherwise.

 

[ZombiePete]

Lmao!!!! So basically the 95%.

Additionally, those people you listed arent any less professional than the video editors if the world and for them the iPad Pro is all the Pro they need. Even Apple uses the Pro for real work.

I think he was demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.

 

[dyn]

Yes, you are correct, but that's just a user interface, no more.

No, I wasn't talking about user interfaces, I was talking about interfaces in general. Also, these interfaces do affect how you operate the software. When using a mouse and keyboard you can create very small elements. These will be unusable on touch screens because they are very hard to hit. In general you need bigger elements, more whitespace which means that the space you can use for actual content is rather small. A touch screen also has some characteristics that you need to be aware off and that you need to deal with when it comes to the software side of it.

You feel it would be impossible to program in a mouse pointer, resizable windows an icon layouts in iOS.

I'm sure a different user interface could be done within iOS.

Trying to integrate two very different interfaces that require a very different approach for controlling the software is very complex. Microsoft tried it with Windows 8 and people complained a lot. Microsoft paddled back and put out Windows 8.1 and people still complained a lot. They released Windows 10 and guess what...people are still complaining but maybe slightly less now. In Windows 8 the touch screen people were happy, the others were very unhappy. In Windows 8.1 they made the others happier and pissed off the touch screen people. Windows 10 seems to be a bit of a mix there. It's been 3 years now and there are still complaints regarding the two interfaces. Either it is really really difficult to do or it is simply the wrong way to do things (time will have to tell). Just because something is possible doesn't make it the right thing to do nor does it mean that it is simple to do

 

[AdonisSMU]

I think he was demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.

yeah I caught that later. LMAO!!!! I originally posted a different message....but then I realized he was being ridiculous...by design. LOL!!!

 

[dk001]

...
Trying to integrate two very different interfaces that require a very different approach for controlling the software is very complex. Microsoft tried it with Windows 8 and people complained a lot. Microsoft paddled back and put out Windows 8.1 and people still complained a lot. They released Windows 10 and guess what...people are still complaining but maybe slightly less now. In Windows 8 the touch screen people were happy, the others were very unhappy. In Windows 8.1 they made the others happier and pissed off the touch screen people. Windows 10 seems to be a bit of a mix there. It's been 3 years now and there are still complaints regarding the two interfaces. Either it is really really difficult to do or it is simply the wrong way to do things (time will have to tell). Just because something is possible doesn't make it the right thing to do nor does it mean that it is simple to do

While I enjoy my Surface Pro, touch / stylus / keyboard / mouse / touchpad all have different values at different times and are heavily dependent depending on whether I am using it as a tablet, notebook or docked. They do bleed over between each other and usage is not clear cut. However I would rather have the complexity of all options than not. Still they have to work well together and have apps/programs that support that; desktop/tablet.

 

[Piggie]

Jesus, why does everyone have to make everything so dam complicated?

iPad Pro runs iOS as per normal.
When docked with the keyboard you can, if you wish flip it over into OSX

Simple as that.

Does not need to be any hybrid OS of any messing around.
It's a computer, it can run any program.

A Mac Pro could run iOS if it was written for it.

Just make the iPad Pro able to run either, and allow the user to boot/run whichever OS they wish to use.

It's so simple.

 

[Michael Goff]

Jesus, why does everyone have to make everything so dam complicated?

iPad Pro runs iOS as per normal.
When docked with the keyboard you can, if you wish flip it over into OSX

Simple as that.

Does not need to be any hybrid OS of any messing around.
It's a computer, it can run any program.

A Mac Pro could run iOS if it was written for it.

Just make the iPad Pro able to run either, and allow the user to boot/run whichever OS they wish to use.

It's so simple.

I would have thought that was a great idea, before the SB came out. Now I'm not so sure.

Edit: More detail. We can't even get to the point where we can switch between a discrete graphics card and integrated when the keyboard is removed. Constant crashes, apparently. A whole OS, with different architectures? No, friend, you're asking for a headache.

 

[glindon]

I agree with your logic and rationale. Thanks of for taking run time to write it up, well thought out.

Personally I believe the iPad pro happened , in its current iteration, due to the drop in sales in iPads . Had they continued to be strong , apple would not have launched my iPad pro in my opinion . It's the evolution of the device, trying to attract new users and industries.

I'm quite surprised how many people of MR have trashed the iPad pro.

I'll be honest for me, it's an iPad plus, I really like it.

Had they released the iPad Pro a few years ago it would have been a 2+ pound brick. They released it now because they were able to get the weight around the same as the original iPad. Not to mention that the graphics chip is only now powerful enough to drive the high resolution display.

I expect great things to come with iOS 10 that will make the Pro even better. Remember how the iPad Air 2 seemed way overpowered for iOS 8 when it shipped? And then we got multitasking with iOS 9 and then the extra power made sense.

 

[jlc1978]

You might have an idea, but there's no guarantee that idea will actually receive the attention it deserves.

You made a lot of good points; this being a key one. There is no easy way for the end user to find apps that they may find interesting or useful; and if they search for a particular type of app there is often so many hits returned, often with similar names, it is hard to decide what is worth purchasing.

Apple, by eliminating all the backend costs related taking an app to market following development, such as distribution, packaging, and inventory, reduced the barriers to entry for publishing apps which meant a lot of apps that would have failed under the old model can hang around, contributing to the difficulties of finding quality apps.

It would be nice Apple morphed TestFlight into a test drive app that let developers provide demos of their products prior to purchase.

 

[glindon]

You clearly don't understand that it's not as simple as "Why can't iPad's and Macs co-exist?" This is a device that is an investment for some people and considered professional grade. This isn't some lifestyle choice like being Pro Life or smoking cigarettes.

We are debating the value and utility of the device, to understand whether we, as either pro users or pro developers, can vouch for this device. If we do not discuss it and firmly stand for either support or denial of it, then people won't have information to research when they make a decision on the device's merit.

You can't just tell people not to discuss things. if you don't like it, you can just leave the forum and come back in 3-4 years when you know where this device is/was.

For me, my vote is:
Mobile OS, it's useless to professional users.
App market doesn't support professional app development.
12" Angry Birds.
Should've supported the Stylus on OSX.
Professional users need X86.
ARM is awful for a full OS.

Sounds like the old arguments of:
Pro users need a command line
Who needs a mouse when you can use a command line
Floppy drive is a necessity
CD/DVD is a necessity
Why use wireless when I can plug in a Ethernet cable.
USB is slow and almost nothing supports it right now
Phones can't be used for real work
No one wants a phone that doesn't have a keyboard
Only Blackberries are good for corporate email
A computer needs a mouse to be useful
Tablets can't be used for real work

There are many more examples that I could come up with.

For millions of people an iPad is their only computer other than their smartphone. A 13" iPad makes perfect sense for them. I think people are stuck on the Pro moniker. A professional is just someone who makes money in a certain profession. Lot's of people write but a professional writer gets paid to do so, etc.

Also the app market does support professional app development. Just take a look at Omni's apps. Final Draft has been available for iPad for some time and it's the "photoshop" for screenwriters. Office is there. The IBM partnership is bringing pro apps into vertical markets. The iPad is dominant in the enterprise at this time.

 

[phillyboy82]

You cant just compare performance like that. It doesn't work that way.

If it were as simple as that, ARM would be executing x86 instructions. Seriously read about these architectures before you say something like that. A Geekbench score doesn't mean anything, at all, comparing ARM to x86.

Bottom line, no, you're 100% wrong. ARM processors aren't "faster" or at the "level of performance" of i3's. You have ZERO idea what you're talking about. Like seriously you have NO CLUE.

Yeah. Good, mature start. I took computer engineering hardware courses in college so I have some idea of what we are talking about. Also nice strawman you setup there, as I never made the assertion that ARM could be "simply executing x86 instructions" with the benchmark data that does exist.

ARM processors operate linear stack instruction sets based on Reduced Instruction Set Compiling. They're given instructions that pass information in a pipeline on a single send/receive compute cycle. Mobile platforms have streamlined system instructions to benefit RISC because it's faster for simpler instructions. Full x86 processors are much more complicated than that because full operating systems are more complex than that. i3 CPU's and even Atom CPU's use CISC, or rather complex instruction set compiling. An instruction might be to determine the trajectory of an aircraft: CISC will split this up into sub tasks, one to retrieve physical properties of the aircraft from storage, one task to calculate the mass of the plane, another to calculate velocity, another to wait for this data to come back so it can send it to another instruction to determine how far the plane will travel for a set time.

And x86 does this on the fly. all you have to tell an x86 processor is "here are the instructions, do them". ARM can ONLY thread processes that it's already been programmatically defined in its instruction set.

I don't buy the argument that RISC processors cannot do the equivalent instructions of a CISC processor. It will take more operations to do so I'm sure, but are you telling me that the other RISC processors that have existed since computing were somehow gimped compared to CISC on x86?

You are really saying that MIPS, SPARC, POWER architectures, to name a few, are not able to perform the same types of OS operations that an x86 processor can?

ARM processors can NOT do that, and that's why ARM processors can NOT perform full OS instructions, and that's why you have NO IDEA what you're talking about and why I think it's an insult to my industry that reviewers constantly regurgitate GeekBench scores as a means of translating a tablet or mobile phone's processor speed as a comparison to a desktop or mobile processor.

So how does Debian run on a Raspberry Pi? The CISC gods bequeathed it? Or NetBSD on arm processors? What the **** is not "full OS" about those?

<snip>

Please read about this stuff before you jump to these sensational and false claims about what ARM processors can do compared to x86:

http://www.androidauthority.com/arm-vs-x86-key-differences-explained-568718/
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...its-own-arm-chips-in-macbooks-and-the-mac-pro
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14794460/how-does-the-arm-architecture-differ-from-x86

You do realize that modern Intel x86 processors decode their ISA instructions into RISC micro-ops to execute on their RISC cores? Also your articles don't lay claim to say what ARM cannot do versus x86 besides not being able to execute CISC instructions (that Intel makes into some good old fantastic-tasting RISC sauce anyways!). The second article talks about not converting due to a lack of hypothetical power savings. How was that relevant?

Anyways, here are links for you to go read:

https://people.cs.umass.edu/~emery/classes/cmpsci691st/scribe/lecture6-risc.pdf

https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/classes/sp14/cse141-a/Slides/01_ISA-Part II-annotated-0429.pdf

https://books.google.com/books?id=BEnIU2s1gPEC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=x86+RISC+microops&source=bl&ots=YTcRFo2qZv&sig=6JO1AH2MuRiDRjq0dFpNhLuGC3U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuyJ6ImLXJAhXF4iYKHcdQBME4ChDoAQgpMAI#v=onepage&q=x86 RISC microops&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=SJ7aBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=x86+RISC+microops&source=bl&ots=ICPUV5zydN&sig=5EzCgLZMyYKNLxm2G-vpF73a0wo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuyJ6ImLXJAhXF4iYKHcdQBME4ChDoAQg7MAU#v=onepage&q=x86 RISC microops&f=false

Sounds like you have reading to do, too...

Please tell me how arm cannot be used to run full OS instructions and I will be off on my merry way. What specific things can it not do?

 

[MH01]

Had they released the iPad Pro a few years ago it would have been a 2+ pound brick. They released it now because they were able to get the weight around the same as the original iPad. Not to mention that the graphics chip is only now powerful enough to drive the high resolution display.

I expect great things to come with iOS 10 that will make the Pro even better. Remember how the iPad Air 2 seemed way overpowered for iOS 8 when it shipped? And then we got multitasking with iOS 9 and then the extra power made sense.

For me the iPad pro is made for multitasking. The iPad Air 2 is just too small for multitasking for me .

Also I have to add that the iPad pro weighs a lot with the KB attached . I believe it's 1.15 kg, the MacBook 12 and air weigh less. The iPad Air 2 is almost a 1/3 of its weight.

unless the pencil is then main reason for getting it due to creative content creation, people need consider this is a laptop replacement also, in terms of weight and size..... This is no iPad Air. It almost weight as much as the Mac book air 13. Something I am considering

 

[Piggie]

Can you imagine a RL store like the Apple App Store?
Shelves stacked up with 99 cent cheap plastic junk, and if you wade thru it all, you may actually find something good.
It would be terrible.

Apple really should break the store up to allow different qualities or perhaps grades, is that a good word? of software be be in different locations.

If I had say an iPad Pro, and was looking to spend $2000 of my company money on the program, so I really wish it to be alongside fart apps?