Very strange CCC recovery...

[Ambrosia7177]

I am experiencing some VERY STRANGE behavior on a CCC recovery I just did...

Okay, so I bought a mint condition used 2015 Retina (aka Retina #2) back in like 2017 because it is the last MBP where you can swap out the SSD. And it is identical to the Retina (aka Retina #1) I use along with this old MBP I am typing on.

So Retina #2 has been sitting collecting dusk since I bought it, but I decided to pull it out of storage and use it as a test since I have struggled to get the audio setup - which is fairly advanced - on Retina #1 to ever work.

Retina #2 had a base load of macOS Sierra on it, and just an Admin account, but nothing else.

So on Thursday I took an external HDD with a recent CCC clone of Retina #1, plugged it into Retina #2, option booted, logged into Retina #1 clone as Admin, and used CCC to copy the clone onto Retina #2.

I *thought* that once that was done and I botoed up Retina #2, that I would have, well, a clone of Retina #1 on Retina #2, right?

Not exactly...

So with the CCC clone from Retina #1 now installed on Retina #2, I just booted up Retina #2, and went to log in using my admin credentials from Retina #1, because Retina #2 is now a clone of Retina #1, right?

Well, my credentials didn't work.

So then I used the credentials for the Admin account that I previously had on Retina #2 BEFORE the clone recovery. (Thank God I had them written on a Post-It note on Retina #2?!

Retina #2 booted up in - presumably the Admin account - but then a username/password login screen appeared right after logging in.

So on a lucky guess, I entered the Admin username and password from Retina #1, and then I was logegd in again, but this time to a Desktop that apepars to actually be my Retina #1 clone?!

It almost looks like I installed my CCC clone from Retina #1 INSIDE OFF Retina #2's original account?! Sort of like a Russian Matryoshka doll?!

So what ended up happening, and how do I fix this????

By the way, I am using FDE and a Firmware Password for extra security. Not sure if that plays into what I am experiencing?

I am so pissed right now, because I had hoped to spend this afternoon installing new software and trying to fix my AUDIO issues, but it looks like I have OS problems to fix?! 😡😡


P.S. When I option booted up the first time on Retina #2 and logged in as Admin, I believe I got a red Deesktop, which shows to me that I was in the original Retina #2 OS from a couple years ago, because I use that as a color cue so i know I'm logegd in as Admin. But then when I logged in a second time, I saw a black Desktop, which is what I use as a color cue for my Clone Admin account so I know that I am in a backup and not my live system.

So that basically proves that I have nested OS's...

 

[Fishrrman]

Sounds to me like you had the CCC options set to NOT replace EVERYTHING on the target (this is possible with CCC). This is what the "safety net" option in CCC is about.

Boot from the cloned backup drive again (connected to the retina 2).

Launch CCC.

Get CCC set up with the backup as the source and the retina 2 as the target.

BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE...

Look at the "Safety Net" setting.
It should be set to "off".
This will wipe out anything on retina 2 and replace everything with the contents of the backup.

Let the cloning process go ahead.
It will take less time since you already have most things cloned over, but should remove anything that was "extant" on the retina 2 before.

Does this work?

 

[Ambrosia7177]

Sounds to me like you had the CCC options set to NOT replace EVERYTHING on the target (this is possible with CCC). This is what the "safety net" option in CCC is about.

A-ha!

Well, if you are right, then that isn't the end of the world - just pisses me off...

The plan was to waste my whole weekend not getting my AUDIO issues fixed, versus wasting my whole weekend because I did not do my RECOVERY correctly?!

It will take less time since you already have most things cloned over...

I hope so, because it took 4 hours to clone Retina #2 on Saturday.

Does this work?

I will report back as soon as I find out... *fingers crossed*

 

[Ambrosia7177]

@Fishrrman,

No dice. Your sugegstion above didn't work.

Now what??

(Btw, it took nearly 3 hours of running CCC to find out this didn't work. There goes my entire weekend?!)

 

[chown33]

I suggest turning off Firmware Password for the duration of your cloning activities. It could be interfering, since one of the things it does is block attempts to use other boot disks.

With Firmware Password off, also try erasing the destination disk before cloning the external disk to it. Keep disk encryption off for now.

If you're booted from the external clone disk, then you know it's bootable. If you then erase the destination disk first, and use CCC to clone the external disk to it, then the result should be bootable, because you've cloned a known-bootable disk to an erased (empty) disk.

 

[Ambrosia7177]

@chown33,

I suggest turning off Firmware Password for the duration of your cloning activities. It could be interfering, since one of the things it does is block attempts to use other boot disks.

I just checked, and the Firmware Password was turned off.

However, I did check to see if FDE was on, and while it was, my regular user (i.e. "user1") had not been enabled fo FDE.

Could that cause an issue, even though I was doing everything as Admin?

With Firmware Password off, also try erasing the destination disk before cloning the external disk to it. Keep disk encryption off for now.

How do I do that?

Boot up with my external backup clone, and then use Disk Utilities to erase the internal SSD?

If you're booted from the external clone disk, then you know it's bootable. If you then erase the destination disk first, and use CCC to clone the external disk to it, then the result should be bootable, because you've cloned a known-bootable disk to an erased (empty) disk.

So ultimately what do you think is the problem that I am having, now that we know I didn't have the Firmware Password turned on for Retina #2?

Was it that I didn't have user1 (non-Admon) enabled under FDE for Retina #2?

Or am I still doing something wrong with CCC?

(I'm pretty sure that I did a test a year or two ago trying to recover another MBPusing my bootable CCC clone to make sure indeed that I knew how to do a full recovery. So while I may be rusty on all of this, I understand conceptually what to do...)

 

[Fishrrman]

My next suggestion:

Boot from the backup drive.

Open disk utility and ERASE the retina2 internal drive. NUKE it.

Now there's nothing on it.

Next, restore from the cloned backup.

If this doesn't work, there is -something- you've done to the MacBook that is mucking things up.
Or... maybe there is something wrong with your backup (which probably indicates something wrong with the MPB from which it was made).

I would NEVER use a firmware password. Just too much chance of really screwing things up.
But I guess that's just me.

 

[Ambrosia7177]

@Fishrrman and @chown33 ,

Okay, good news.

After another 3-4 hour cloning session, this time, I was able to get things to work - at least as far as I can tell.

First, on Retina #2, I did change FDE to allow my regular user to access the disk.

Second, I took your advice and just wiped Retina #2's disk clean with Disk Utility. (Which means doing #1 was a waste of time, I guess.)

Finally, I plugged in my CCC clone into Retina #2 and booted from it, and then ran CCC with "Safe Mode" turned "Off".

My cloning finished up at like 4 a.m. this morning, and before going to bed, I logged in on Retina #2 as Admin and regular user after the clone, and then rebooted and tried both again.

It seems like things are working okay. that, and I made sure I could get online, and I spot checked some recent files to see if they were there.

So I guess the lesson here is that IF you have to restore your entire system from an old CCC clone, it is BEST to use Disk Utility to first wipe off your internal drive (or drve you are rebuilding), AND THEN install the clone.

One problem solved.

Now the REAL challenge is to see if I can get my audio problems solved?!


P.S. So what exactly was happening in what I described in my OP?

Did I have "nested" OS's?

 

[chown33]

The best anyone can do is make guesses at what caused the problem in the OP.

I've never heard of or seen anything like that before, and one could surmise no one who replied had, either, because no one ever said they'd seen it. Since any diagnosable record of the actual configuration was obliterated, I doubt that anything more than speculation is possible.

I don't understand what you mean by "nested" OS's.

If you mean one version of macOS running virtualized inside another version of macOS, that seems implausible, because macOS doesn't have the means to do that kind of virtualization by itself. All the means I'm aware of, are apps that virtualize an OS.

If by "nested" you meant something more like "merged haphazardly from different origins", then that seems at least plausible. That is, some parts of the original install were merged haphazardly (i.e. in an unknown or unpredictable manner) with parts from the clone disk. Such things have been known to fail, despite the best intentions of both software and operator.


I'd also like to say that one other lesson here should be to make sure all your possible backup and restoration procedures are:
1. Documented, with the documentation tested.
2. Practiced, so operators have done the entire procedure at least once.
3. Confirmed as working.

I've previously related my experience with a timeshared PDP-11 that had a head crash.

 

[Ambrosia7177]

The best anyone can do is make guesses at what caused the problem in the OP.

I've never heard of or seen anything like that before, and one could surmise no one who replied had, either, because no one ever said they'd seen it. Since any diagnosable record of the actual configuration was obliterated, I doubt that anything more than speculation is possible.

True. Just trying to learn from what happened.

I don't understand what you mean by "nested" OS's.

If you mean one version of macOS running virtualized inside another version of macOS, that seems implausible, because macOS doesn't have the means to do that kind of virtualization by itself. All the means I'm aware of, are apps that virtualize an OS.

I said "nested" because initially after installing my backup CCC clone, when I logged in, I was being asked for my OLD credentials (before the restore), AND THEN it appeared that macOS had logged me in, and then after that suddenly the login screwed appeared a second time, and that time I had to enter the credentials for my backed up clone.

Follow me?

I'd also like to say that one other lesson here is to make sure all your possible restoration procedures are:
1. Documented, with the documentation tested.
2. Practiced, so operators have done the entire procedure at least once.
3. Confirmed as working.

Well, admittedly, I haven't done a CCC restore in maybe two years. But I have done it at least once, so I *thought* I knew what to do.

After this episode, I think I will just wipe the disk to be recovered clean first - per @Fishrrman's advice.

I've previously related my experience with a timeshared PDP-11 that had a head crash.

Fair enough. 👍

 

[chown33]

I said "nested" because initially after installing my backup CCC clone, when I logged in, I was being asked for my OLD credentials (before the restore), AND THEN it appeared that macOS had logged me in, and then after that suddenly the login screwed appeared a second time, and that time I had to enter the credentials for my backed up clone.

Follow me?

I think so.

First, I presume that by "credentials" you mean the password that was previously used to boot from the original disk. "Credential" is more general than "password", hence more vague.

You originally stated that full-disk encryption was enabled on the destination disk. That means the boot process would first need to gain access to the disk's decryption key. That key-access requires the password you originally used to access that disk.

After the decryption key was obtained, the boot process would continue to boot the newly replicated OS. Presumably, the login to that replica OS would have the same account password as on the disk it had been cloned from.

Note that the password for FDE can differ from the login password for any account. I think this is explained in some Apple web page, but I can't find it after a brief search. It's definitely explained in the technical description of how FileVault 2 works.

The brief technical summary (my paraphrasing) is that the volume decryption key(s) are encrypted under a password-based key, so the stored items are Key-Encrypted Keys (KEKs). Entries in the table of KEKs can be added or removed, so users can be granted or denied access to the disk without needing to re-encrypt anything else on the disk. There is also a recovery key, which can be used if all other KEKs have been removed or their passwords lost.​

 

[mikzn]

FWIW there is a new CCC update version 5.1.18 (build 6004)

Have you been following this thread ? APFS Bug in macOS 10.15.5 Catalina Impacts the Creation of Bootable Backups

FWIW - I updated on my copy of CCC on Catalina 10.15.5 and ran my weekly back up and with the new version of CCC 5.1.18 and got a warning asking me to "wipe the disk" (my Catalina back up disk) and then to reformat again to APFS and do a full back up - so even though the back up seemed to run fine previously - it did not pass on the new version of CCC 5.1.18

You may not have this issue if you are not on Catalina 10.15.5 - just thought I would update this thread about the CCC update just in case

 

[satcomer]

Audio problems on any older Mac can be solved with more modern software and a Reset NVRAM or PRAM on your Mac will reset port controllers on your Mac if you do two resets in a row!

 

[Mr_Brightside_@]

FWIW there is a new CCC update version 5.1.18 (build 6004)

Have you been following this thread ? APFS Bug in macOS 10.15.5 Catalina Impacts the Creation of Bootable Backups

FWIW - I updated on my copy of CCC on Catalina 10.15.5 and ran my weekly back up and with the new version of CCC 5.1.18 and got a warning asking me to "wipe the disk" (my Catalina back up disk) and then to reformat again to APFS and do a full back up - so even though the back up seemed to run fine previously - it did not pass on the new version of CCC 5.1.18

You may not have this issue if you are not on Catalina 10.15.5 - just thought I would update this thread about the CCC update just in case

I don't think TT uses Cat.