Video, CPU, Power and Frustration!

[eyoungren]

OK. So, I just got an Apple A1006 DVI to ADC converter (thanks TreeSemdyZee!) on Saturday.

I'm really happy because now I can pull my NVIDIA GeForce 2MX and install my ATI Radeon 9800 Pro (thanks OrangeSVTGuy!). This is a long story…but I'll cut it short.

Apparently my current PSU is insufficient to power everything and run my current CPU card at 1.73Ghz at the voltage I am asking for.

I discovered this through numerous non-starts, restarts, Giga Designs software reinstalls and firmware flashing. Even if I could get the Mac to boot it would crap out before it hit to login window. Yet, my Sonnet 1.2Ghz single processor was rock solid!

So, I finally decided to fool around with the settings on the dual. I set it down to 1.6Ghz and reset the voltage to 1.5v. After a few non-starts it came up and I went right to the login window!

So, unless someone has any different ideas, I am assuming this is due to the fact that the CPUs are asking for power and the PSU can't deliver. The Radeon 9800 Pro has an additional Molex cable even though it has AGP power. So, I guess it's drawing a lot. The curious thing is that I removed two fans AND put the old NVIDIA card back in and still had issues. Although, I suspect that was after I reset the PMU which probably wiped the firmware.

In any case, I seem to be stable at 1.6Ghz (dual). I'm fine with that for now since it means dual processors and my Radeon (with the A1006).

I'm now pretty serious about doing an ATX power supply mod. The easy thing is that there is a guy on the net that sells the power cables that connect the ATX supply to the Quicksilver logicboard.

Since this is something I want to do anyway I'm probably going to play with the processor speed again and see what happens then.

 

[harrymatic]

An ATX mod is really the only way. I don't know what power the stock PSUs could output, but it's definitely not enough for all the upgrades you've got crammed in that machine. The guy that sells the premise ATX adapter cables also provides wiring diagrams if you want to make your own and save some money.

How are you finding the Radeon 9800? Is it the 128MB version?

 

[BJonson]

I have 5 quicksilvers and I ordered one of his adapters so I can full around with modding one of them. I'll let you know how it works out.

 

[eyoungren]

An ATX mod is really the only way. I don't know what power the stock PSUs could output, but it's definitely not enough for all the upgrades you've got crammed in that machine. The guy that sells the premise ATX adapter cables also provides wiring diagrams if you want to make your own and save some money.

How are you finding the Radeon 9800? Is it the 128MB version?

The stock is 344W I believe. As to the harness, uh…no. I'd rather pay someone who's done this before and makes a living off it the $35 he wants for the harness then find out I did it wrong and ruined something (which I've done).

As to the Radeon, so far so good. I'm not used to the A1006. Normally, the Cinema Display has power right off the bat, but with the A1006 it doesn't light the power button until the box gets signal. So, that's a bit different. Have yet to add a second monitor to the Radeon though to try out dual monitors on it. I don't HAVE a fifth monitor right now!

P.S. Forgot, the Radeon is 128mb.

 

[Cox Orange]

Are you sure it is the CPU that draws too much power?
OK, of course, if you install an ATI 9800 along the already present stuff, you will have to do the PSU swap anyway. But I once asked this question to Japamac and he had done extensive testing.
He said he has a Dual 1,6GHz powerlogix 7447A CPU in it and it works without issues in a G4 GE (338W PSU) even with an ATI 9800 and PCI cards.

The Gigabit Ethernet PSU will handle a processor upgrade, a 9800 Pro, a PCI card (or 2) and two drives much better than the Sawtooth.

My formerly DP 450 GE turned DP 1.6 GHz with 9800 Pro and two drives was always stable with the OEM PSU, regardless.
(...)
The OEM PSU [of the G4 AGP, which is 237W rev.B] does not do well with load when hot.

This hints me, that your CPU is not to heavy for the 344W PSU.

Anyway on the ATX-conversion, I actually plan to do that, too, at the moment. Bought a cheap ATX-PSU 430W on Saturday.

Others on the forum had recommended special types of ATX-PSU, because of the fan direction (most have an additional one pointing towards the case), the recommended ones have only the one 80mm fan at the rear, like the Mac-OEM-PSUs.

These were:
Thermaltake TR2 430W (Zen's recommendation back then)
Antec neo (or neopower) or green (be careful, there are some with the same name, that have a side fan)
Antec Earthwatts
I added Sharkoon SHA-350-8P (350W is the minimum) or -450-8P to the list once. (I even have it, but I waited for a cheaper on for my first toying around).

The one I got on saturday is a cheap one, because I plan to do additional mods on it, but it has an internal temperature control just like the Apple OEM PSUs and only the rear fan.

(I will do the converter mod myself though, because of the shipping overseas.)

 

[eyoungren]

Are you sure it is the CPU that draws too much power?
OK, of course, if you install an ATI 9800 along the already present stuff, you will have to do the PSU swap anyway. But I once asked this question to Japamac and he had done extensive testing.
He said he has a Dual 1,6GHz powerlogix 7447A CPU in it and it works without issues in a G4 GE (338W PSU) even with an ATI 9800 and PCI cards.


This hints me, that your CPU is not to heavy for the 344W PSU.

Anyway on the ATX-conversion, I actually plan to do that, too, at the moment. Bought a cheap ATX-PSU 430W on Saturday.

Others on the forum had recommended special types of ATX-PSU, because of the fan direction (most have an additional one pointing towards the case), the recommended ones have only the one 80mm fan at the rear, like the Mac-OEM-PSUs.

These were:
Thermaltake TR2 430W (Zen's recommendation back then)
Antec neo (or neopower) or green (be careful, there are some with the same name, that have a side fan)
Antec Earthwatts
I added Sharkoon SHA-350-8P (350W is the minimum) or -450-8P to the list once. (I even have it, but I waited for a cheaper on for my first toying around).

The one I got on saturday is a cheap one, because I plan to do additional mods on it, but it has an internal temperature control just like the Apple OEM PSUs and only the rear fan.

(I will do the converter mod myself though, because of the shipping overseas.)

Well…it's a little bit more than that.

3 PATA drives, one in the ZIP drive bay, the optical drive, 2 SATA drives, 1 SATA Card, 1 USB 2.0 card, 1 ATI Rage 128, 1 Radeon 7000, 1 Radeon 9800, 1 external iSight and some smaller USB devices (most on external power though).

This mod for me is not going to happen soon, but I will do it. I'd much rather have power to spare then need power. BTW, the Thermaltake you mention is the one recommended by the guy I found who sells the wiring harness.

 

[Cox Orange]

I'd much rather have power to spare then need power.

True. Better it is.

BTW, the Thermaltake you mention is the one recommended by the guy I found who sells the wiring harness.

I tried to find one used, but they are extremely rare in Europe (not made anymore) and an import from the US totals around 40-50EUR. (55-68USD), unfortunately. So you are in a lucky position.

 

[Altemose]

Well…it's a little bit more than that.

3 PATA drives, one in the ZIP drive bay, the optical drive, 2 SATA drives, 1 SATA Card, 1 USB 2.0 card, 1 ATI Rage 128, 1 Radeon 7000, 1 Radeon 9800, 1 external iSight and some smaller USB devices (most on external power though).

This mod for me is not going to happen soon, but I will do it. I'd much rather have power to spare then need power. BTW, the Thermaltake you mention is the one recommended by the guy I found who sells the wiring harness.

A good quality 500 or 650 w PSU will serve you nicely. Despite being so upgradable, Apple never stocked replacement upgraded PSUs and PSU parts! Perhaps a different era QuickSilver would have a more powerful OEM PSU?

 

[eyoungren]

Perhaps a different era QuickSilver would have a more powerful OEM PSU?

No, I believe the QS and QS 2002 shared the same PSU. And then the MDD's came in and of course that PSU does not fit in the QS.

Right now, I've pulled the Rage 128 and am using just the 9800 and the 7000 to drive my four monitors. I don't currently have a fifth one I can use so it's a moot point at the moment.

I'm stuck at 1.6 until I get more power. However, I did have to add back the fan that sits on top of the CPUs. The Mac was still freezing. Apparently, that 80mm fan has become necessary.

 

[Altemose]

No, I believe the QS and QS 2002 shared the same PSU. And then the MDD's came in and of course that PSU does not fit in the QS.

Right now, I've pulled the Rage 128 and am using just the 9800 and the 7000 to drive my four monitors. I don't currently have a fifth one I can use so it's a moot point at the moment.

I'm stuck at 1.6 until I get more power. However, I did have to add back the fan that sits on top of the CPUs. The Mac was still freezing. Apparently, that 80mm fan has become necessary.

So OEM parts are out of the question. Too bad the QuickSilver didn't use a computerized fan controller. I see that as an oversight on Apple's part, essentially on the whole G4 line.

Where can you order the adapter cable to connect a regular ATX PSU to the QS Logic Board? You could do a pin out but if you don't like or know about working on PSUs then it is best to stick with a pre-made cable.

 

[eyoungren]

Where can you order the adapter cable to connect a regular ATX PSU to the QS Logic Board? You could do a pin out but if you don't like or know about working on PSUs then it is best to stick with a pre-made cable.

Here. I'm prepared to pay $25 for someone who's business it is to make these.

But the website has also done all the prep work for you should you want to do it yourself.

 

[BJonson]

Got my adapter today. I am going to try it out on an Antec 400w PSU I have in the closet since it fits the quicksilver perfectly. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Altemose]

Here. I'm prepared to pay $25 for someone who's business it is to make these.

But the website has also done all the prep work for you should you want to do it yourself.

Wait a second. Looking at this pinout diagram, there are no +25 V pins on the ATX pin out. That means that ADC power cannot be delivered through the card. That definitely affects you, Erik.

EDIT: Just saw he gave a notice about that...

 

[eyoungren]

Wait a second. Looking at this pinout diagram, there are no +25 V pins on the ATX pin out. That means that ADC power cannot be delivered through the card. That definitely affects you, Erik.

EDIT: Just saw he gave a notice about that...

LOL! Yes, yes it does.

That is just one of the number of reasons I am on the lookout for the A1006 DVI/ADC converters. The converters have their own power which they supply to the ADC display, just like any normal power cord for a normal monitor.

The one I have right now is powering my Cinema Display while being hooked up to the DVI port of my DVI/VGA/S-Video only Radeon. I need two more for the other two Studio Displays.

An external power brick (the A1006) means I don't need ADC power from the QS.

 

[Altemose]

LOL! Yes, yes it does.

That is just one of the number of reasons I am on the lookout for the A1006 DVI/ADC converters. The converters have their own power which they supply to the ADC display, just like any normal power cord for a normal monitor.

The one I have right now is powering my Cinema Display while being hooked up to the DVI port of my DVI/VGA/S-Video only Radeon. I need two more for the other two Studio Displays.

An external power brick (the A1006) means I don't need ADC power from the QS.

Maybe you could run supplemental power from the old PSU into the Logic Board. Maybe I am just thinking too outside the box... I will let you know if I find any converters.

 

[Cox Orange]

One side note on the pre-made adapters.

I wanted to build these myself, so I asked in a German electronics forum, where there are electricians (like in educated and for earning money). They told me, the first (simple) version (like shown on japamacs site, too) is bettter, because the second is putting more stress on the (then two) 3,3V lines, which can heat them lines and the connector up -
and putting one 3,3V line in the PG to get a feedback is wrong either, because it might work for a long time, but it is no real feedback, but TTL (whatever that means) and so it can potentially harm/damage the system.

 

[jrsx]

Dang, this is one intense PPC rebuild!
I'm fearing to see what happens if Erik gets his hands on a G5....

 

[eyoungren]

Dang, this is one intense PPC rebuild!
I'm fearing to see what happens if Erik gets his hands on a G5....

I have a G5.

It's just being used at work right now. And, once it comes home, other than adding the biggest drives I can the rest will stay stock.

I'm finally putting the G4 to it's intended work. I've got three PowerBook G4s, an iBook G4 and an IMac G5 all doing Time Machine backups to external drives connected to the G4. It's other work of course is entertainment system and design workhorse.

Note that the issues in this thread I think have been resolved. My main problem as it turned out was a combination of a flaky RAID and my screensaver (which is Flash based) bombing on me before the loginwindow (coming back from sleep) could load. Force restarting was the only thing I could do.

I turned the screensaver off and the two drives I had a RAID on have been removed.

My power issue remains though. I try not to turn it off. As long as power is flowing I can restart all day. But once I shut it down, getting it to start back up is a PITA!

 

[jrsx]

Geez, who is this guy?? ^^^
LOL, I forgot about the one at your work.

 

[gavinstubbs09]

Are you going to eventually upgrade to a DP/DC G5 of some sort? I am half bummed my dual 2.7 doesn't work and that I'm stuck with my DP1.0 MDD.

 

[eyoungren]

Are you going to eventually upgrade to a DP/DC G5 of some sort? I am half bummed my dual 2.7 doesn't work and that I'm stuck with my DP1.0 MDD.

Are you asking me?

If so, well…I'd like to get a G5 Quad at some point. Not that I'm really in love with the G5s, but I like the idea of having the ultimate in PowerPC power. Although I will leave the 1.8Ghz G5 alone I'd probably end up modding a Quad as far as I could go.

However, as I mentioned in another thread this is one of those times where I will pay to get the best I can find. I'm not down with having to clean up the mess of a coolant leak because I bought a "for parts or repair" type off eBay. I'm going to want it to just work and not have to worry about anything.

However, this is a seriously long way off…

 

[Altemose]

Are you asking me?

If so, well…I'd like to get a G5 Quad at some point. Not that I'm really in love with the G5s, but I like the idea of having the ultimate in PowerPC power. Although I will leave the 1.8Ghz G5 alone I'd probably end up modding a Quad as far as I could go.

However, as I mentioned in another thread this is one of those times where I will pay to get the best I can find. I'm not down with having to clean up the mess of a coolant leak because I bought a "for parts or repair" type off eBay. I'm going to want it to just work and not have to worry about anything.

However, this is a seriously long way off…

Guess the story of the blown coolant line of mine scared you, Erik?

 

[eyoungren]

Guess the story of the blown coolant line of mine scared you, Erik?

Well, it certainly didn't help. I've heard other horror stories, particularly on the Apple forums though.

Honestly, I think I'd probably want to get one of the Macs that has already had the coolant system replaced with the better one (two pumps I think). It's my understanding that the stock cooling system was prone to failure.

 

[Altemose]

Well, it certainly didn't help. I've heard other horror stories, particularly on the Apple forums though.

Honestly, I think I'd probably want to get one of the Macs that has already had the coolant system replaced with the better one (two pumps I think). It's my understanding that the stock cooling system was prone to failure.

Even if it shipped stock with the better pump the coolant would be old and not as effective as well. I don't care what the experts say, coolant breaks down and wears out and the machine runs hotter. It is the same with thermal paste aging and losing effectiveness. That is also why you are supposed to change the coolant in your vehicle every 2-5 years. I don't mind rebuilding the machine completely with fresh coolant and capacitors: there are no old parts that could cause worse damage.

 

[Cox Orange]

Erik, did you get your adapter, yet? I am a bit insecured re this sellers craftsmansship having in mind what I heard in the other forums, said by electricians.