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"peak" is theoretical, "max" is real

Originally posted by MacBandit
The 7.4 teraflops number you are tossing around is indeed the maximum but it is not the peak. The peak is around 17 teraflops so everything is scaling exactly as they expected.

The "peak" number is a mathematical calculation made by looking at the spec sheets for the chip (not even the system) and multiplying.

The "maximum" is what the system actually is measured at.

The "peak" number isn't useful, but "max" is. That's why the Top500 are ranked by "max", not "peak".

Your statement more or less implies that "peak" is the useful number, was that what you meant?
 
Re: "peak" is theoretical, "max" is real

Originally posted by AidenShaw
The "peak" number is a mathematical calculation made by looking at the spec sheets for the chip (not even the system) and multiplying.

The "maximum" is what the system actually is measured at.

The "peak" number isn't useful, but "max" is. That's why the Top500 are ranked by "max", not "peak".

Your statement more or less implies that "peak" is the useful number, was that what you meant?

No just an uneducated statement. Thanks for clearing me up on the what RPeak and RMax mean.
 
For your consideration...

As pointed out by an earlier poster, everyone seems to be comparing the new VT cluster to the June list. Of special note in the June Top 500 list is the information concerning ASCI White (The SC currently being referred to as the #5 machine in this thread.) It needed to be retested in June and based on credible information possesed at that time, it should rise in rankings to #3 or #2, thereby pushing the Apple VT to, at the highest, a #5 ranking.

For the June list, they weren't able to retest the ASCI White because it had too many projects scheduled for it to place any time to the side to run LinPack numbers. (Go figure, a SC being used for it's intended purpose rather than running tests for bragging rights...) However, at that time, a similar SC with a smaller build than ASCI White was retested with the new LinPacks and rose dramatically in the rankings even above its "big brother" ASCI White. Obviously this can't be true which is why the June list had statement qualifiers about White on its ranking lists. In the last few months, there's a good chance that White has been retested (I think the expected numbers were in the mid 8Tflop range.)
 
Originally posted by sketchy
well -- they did have a little incident where they had a writer making up stories and an editor who was changing statistics...

yes. the reporter and the managing editor resigned. I'm sure this was the only paper in recorded history where it happened.
 
Originally posted by bt9
Cluster Supercomnputers lose a huge performance boost as you add more nodes.

So, No, making a supercomputer with 2200 G5s would not blow anything out of the water, it would probably score a teraflop or so above the current 1100 node cluster.



Plus, i think avus is absolutely right, the Japanese earth simulator is not comparable, the cost of the surrounding infrastructure which was factored into the price is far in excess of any equivalent in the G5 cluster (such as cooling).

Having said all that, it's still cool, I imagine when the G5 Xserve comes out a lot more Colleges are going to be thinking about this idea.

Do you have some sort of formula that expresses this, with diminishing returns after a certain point?

Because that's certainly not borne out by the data in the Linpack scores in the PDF in this thread.

A 256 CPU G5 cluster gets 861 GFlops at about 3.4 GFlops/CPU, while the 2112 CPU VT cluster gets 8.16 Tflops at about 3.86 GFlops/CPU.

What gives?
 
Originally posted by Telomar
The 17 teraflops was Rpeak. The 7.5 teraflops is Rmax, which is what they rank on. The supercomputer was always destined for around 3rd or 4th.

BTW, Even the Earth Simulator was around 80% efficiency so it was expected to drop off to around 60% efficient (not the 40% efficiency of the quoted number which even the article noted was preliminary). Nobody has an InfiBand cluster on the top500 before so we don't know what to expect. In any case, this is all based on a Wired article where the author could be accused of some wishful thinking.

In any case, the New York Times data was probably old. This isn't Apple here so I went to the top500 maintainer's website and downloaded the latest PDF benchmarks. Using Panther you can search for "G5" and find the Virgina Tech cluster on page 53. RMax is 8.164 TFlops (as of today).

However, that while that would put it in 3rd place on the June list. It'll be in 4th place in the November one. However, the good news is that the new 3rd place is a 1900 processor Itanium system and the Apple machine has beat out all Pentium clusters in performance, price/performance and efficiency.

Take care,

terry
 
Originally posted by tychay

In any case, the New York Times data was probably old.
Take care,

terry

True. What I like about the NYtimes tech writing is that they report Apple news with regularity. The other paper I subscribe to (which shall be nameless...and deservedly so) reports Apple news rarely. In fact their tech editor seems to be actively hostile, if the tone of his writing is any indication. But let Dell put out dog poop and he raves about the shape and smell...
 
The Virginia Tech supercomputer will rank high and very high if you consider the cost, but it will only place in 4th if you compare it to last year's list. There will be other computers which are new to the list.

For example, in june IBM said they were building a computer for Japan's National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST) which is supposed to have an rPeak of 11.168 Tflops. I don't know if it was completed and tested, I'm just saying that there may be other supercomputers competing for the top 5.

When IBM finishes the Blue Gene/L supercomputer, next year I think(?) it will put the whole list to shame with its rPeak of 367Tflops. It has the obvious advantage of having 130000 Power5 processors though. Its hard to say what the Rmax will be, but it won't have any problem claiming the #1 spot.
 
Originally posted by Potus
Which daily would you recommend for up to the minute reporting and accuracy?

I previously said I don't have a recommend but I was wrong. I just forgot because it's not a daily news site I check. They send me news alerts.

www.Forbes.com

You can get free email alerts. I'm set up to receive anything that has Apples name in it and a number of other specific topics.

It's really great up to the minute accurate news from what I have seen.
 
Originally posted by MacBandit
I previously said I don't have a recommend but I was wrong. I just forgot because it's not a daily news site I check. They send me news alerts.

www.Forbes.com

You can get free email alerts. I'm set up to receive anything that has Apples name in it and a number of other specific topics.

It's really great up to the minute accurate news from what I have seen.

Thanks. I'll look into it.
 
Update.

Originally posted by nek
The Virginia Tech supercomputer will rank high and very high if you consider the cost, but it will only place in 4th if you compare it to last year's list. There will be other computers which are new to the list.

For example, in june IBM said they were building a computer for Japan's National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST) which is supposed to have an rPeak of 11.168 Tflops. I don't know if it was completed and tested, I'm just saying that there may be other supercomputers competing for the top 5.

Other than the Earth Simulator very few computers are 80% efficient (Rmax/Rpeak) so the IBM AIST computer will not threaten Virgina Tech's--that 16.9 TFlops Rpeak means that the Rmax can continue to inch up.

As for other computers appearing on the list, my previous post has addressed it: the only one new one that competes with Apple is HP's Itanium system. Traditionally large computers such as those have taken many years to set up so it is very predictable.

If you look at the list today, you'll see that the VATech cluster has jumped to an RMax of 9.55 Tflops from 8.17 earlier and 7.5 in the original post! That's approaching a 60% efficiency.

This is significant because it places the Apple cluster 3rd on the list, ahead of the HP cluster. Now, only the ASCII Q, LANL's 8160 processor Alpha system, and the Earth Simulator, a custom NEC monster, are more powerful! Too bad that this probably didn't make the Fall Top500 but very good news indeed and probably deserves some reporting (Arn?).

I'm inclined to believe that Infiniband opened the door so that a small university could build a top10 supercomputing cluster in a short time at a small cost. Virginia Tech jumped on it and Apple happened to be the best price/performance with a delivery date within the timeframe to make the Top500 (in fact, it looks like they may have cut it too close).

Now that the cat is out of the bag, we may be witnessing a sea change toward clusters based on PC CPUs over the next couple years. 970-based will still have the edge over the Itanium, Pentium Xeon, and Opterons because it's Rpeak is so large and there is little doubt that IBM be hitting their target speeds, but I don't expect these servers to necessarily be coming from Apple.

The Linux blade and rack vendors who supply datacenters and renderfarms should seriously be looking at the 970 to complement their Opteron and Itanium systems.

Looks like IBM has a winner of a chip in the HPC market.

Take care,
 
Originally posted by ryanw
Uh, if I remember right, it's running Yellowdog Linux so Panther shouldn't help much in this situation ...

YDL!, really? that sucks, definitely not my first choice, ran really slow compared to to OS 9 and OS 10 when i tried it...

i know were talking about a completely different setup here, not to mention that a single computer in the cluster blows my machine out of the water, but still.... oh well... what do i know
 
Originally posted by revenuee
Hey Rower_CPU, hows the YDL working for you?

Well, I installed it...checked it out for a little while, and then wiped the drive and installed Panther. ;)

It seemed to work OK, but I wanted to get a system back on my laptop I would actually use. Since I'm still in the middle of a semester I don't have a ton of time to play around with that stuff right now. But I did get it working...
 
9.555 tflops - wow - now it's clearly #3 in the world. Anyone know the rules for the top 500 list? I know there was a deadline for having the system up an running for the next list. But what is the deadline for the benchmarks used for the official rankings? It already is only the 3rd supercomputer to break 9 tflops - I wonder if they can still tweak it enough to break 10 tflops.

What a coup for apple. The first Mac based super computer blows em all away for a fraction of the cost - you have to think it's just a matter of time before the list is dominated with Apple supercomputers. Looks to me like a larger supercomputer with 3 GHz G5s could challenge the earth simulator for #1.

The G5 supercomputer is so fast now that it's Rmax is faster than the Rpeak values for all but 9 supercomputers. Another optimization that gets Rmax to 10241 cuts that number to 6.
 
the best thing about the new list is that the G5 system now outperforms the titanium system every way you look at it. Rpeak and Rmax are both considerably higher. And Rmax per CPU is higher as well. And cost/performance blows them all away.

And it has definitely been confirmed that they are using MacOS X on these machines. I don't think any of the supercomputers are using Windows. I think Apple wins the scalability argument now.
 
It looks like IBM's POWER processors (not the PowerPC processors) and AMD processors are destined to dominate the Top 20 for the next year (all you have to do is review all the current projects from Blue Gene/L from IBM, Cray's Red Storm, or HP's systems for Japan.)

Apple had/is having its day in the sun, but there are some serious computer about to go online. (Plus, the real story of the VT cluster is Infiniband and its first implementation which is now infiltrating other SC projects; even replacing old connects for projects like the ASIC colour series with Infiniband could propel them back to the top level status.)
 
#1 - cost $350 million
#2 - cost $200 million
#3 - cost $5 million

Don't underestimate the impact of this. Systems planned may not currently be G5 systems, but you have to think people building these things will have to sit up and take notice. And the connections can only do so much to speed things up - the Rmax value of the G5 system is faster than the Rpeak values for all but 9 supercomputers, and a little more tweaking would get that number down to 6.
 
Originally posted by legion
It looks like IBM's POWER processors (not the PowerPC processors) and AMD processors are destined to dominate the Top 20 for the next year (all you have to do is review all the current projects from Blue Gene/L from IBM, Cray's Red Storm, or HP's systems for Japan.)

Apple had/is having its day in the sun, but there are some serious computer about to go online. (Plus, the real story of the VT cluster is Infiniband and its first implementation which is now infiltrating other SC projects; even replacing old connects for projects like the ASIC colour series with Infiniband could propel them back to the top level status.)

Sour Grapes= bad whine:(
Right now the first Mac ever is in the top five at 1/50th(or less) the cost of the others. Does anybody expect it to stay there forever?
I don't think so. Will the systems you are quoting beat the price/performance of the Mac? Maybe
So I guess So your point is that things change in the computing world? Thanks:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by fourthtunz
Sour Grapes= bad whine:(
Right now the first Mac ever is in the top five at 1/50th(or less) the cost of the others. Does anybody expect it to stay there forever?
I don't think so. Will the systems you are quoting beat the price/performance of the Mac? Maybe
So I guess So your point is that things change in the computing world? Thanks:rolleyes:

good point
 
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