Vista, first hand.

Discussion in 'Windows, Linux & Others on the Mac' started by deputy_doofy, Mar 11, 2007.

  1. deputy_doofy macrumors 65816


    Sep 11, 2002
    Yesterday, I was at my friend's house and he was asked to configure a brand new laptop for his friend's daughter. By configure, he meant taking off all the trial crap and give it some software.

    It was a Compaq, 1.73GHz Celeron M (yes, that's right, the CELERY chip), with 512mb RAM.
    Doing some research, I found that this version of the Celeron was the poor man's version of Yonah (Core Solo).

    Now, I have gotten into minor arguments with people before that there is NO value in a Celeron chip. I still think people who buy it have been duped... and should have just given me their money. NO computer at all has about the same performance. My G3 600MHz iBook used to beat most 2.4 Celery machines and my PB 12" G4 used to PWN most Celerons at double the speed (*ahem* MHz). :p

    Anyway, this laptop was $500. For $500, one can buy a CHEAP laptop that can barely perform, thanks to Vista. In XP, a Celeron was barely good, but in Vista..... even Windows rates the experience a 2.0.

    Yes, I am now educated in a NEW scheme by MS to confuse customers even further. Windows Vista will give you a "Windows Experience Index" rating, which tells you how good your hardware is (for Vista). For years, MS + Intel played the MHz/GHz game to "educate" people. However, now people are going to be confused by this new system. MS recommends that people only buy software that has the same base score or lower. So, someone may think their machine is great because it is 1.73GHz (yes, WE know better) and will not understand why they can only buy software rated 2 or lower.

    Finally, it seems that my friend may be going Mac.
    1) He HATES Windows Vista. Admittedly, he really does like XP.
    2) Configuring a Dell with MacBook specs, the Dell came out to be about $100 cheaper. That's it. For the extra $100, he gets the remote, the camera, a stable OS, AND the ability to install Windows with it. Yes, he will do that (even I have Windows, just for the fun of it). For an extra hundred dollars, he gets TWO OS's.

    I think Vista really is the end of MS as an important company. MY 2 cents.
  2. nsbio macrumors 6502a


    Aug 8, 2006
    Not for the extra 100 - you have to factor in the vista price, which would be ~300-ish. So the cost of running two OSs is ~$400 or an extra 25-30% of the price of the machine.

    Incidentally, is it true that Mac users are the only people who would buy retail full versions of Vista? PC users get an OEM version or buy an upgrade. Microsoft should be very happy about it and be glad that Macs exist.
  3. deputy_doofy thread starter macrumors 65816


    Sep 11, 2002
    True, but I have this sneaky suspicion he may just install XP as his secondary OS. Then again, the MacBook can handle Vista much better than that Compaq.
  4. iJawn108 macrumors 65816


    Apr 15, 2006
    the best way to experience windows on a mac is volume licensing :D
    no hasstle with ms, can have as man vms as you want its great. lol
  5. dgdosen macrumors 65816


    Dec 13, 2003
    What would MacOS look like?

    Good lord - do you think MacOS would run will on that hardware? Of course not! Apple makes great hardware, but you'll have a restrictive upgrade path and you pay for a premium. I'm fine with that, as they're great hardware innovators. I love my MPB.

    Microsoft doesn't work with a closed set of hardware choices, they try to work with everyone. That's what makes them successful. When you do run Vista on nice hardware (MB/MBP C2D) - it's great! When you try to run it on underperforming hardware, of course it's going to suck.

    Mac OS has Vista beat because it is easy to use, rock solid, and fun to use.

    Vista has Mac OS beat because there's more software that can run on Vista - software that I want to use.

    What are you going to do when Leopard comes out and it doesn't run well (if at all) on the old Mac Book Pro Core Duos? That's a very similar situation to what your friend has faced.
  6. risc macrumors 68030


    Jul 23, 2004
    Melbourne, Australia
    HAHA, that's the funniest thing I've read in a long time!
  7. slicedbread macrumors regular

    Nov 5, 2006
    AFAIK mac users can still get OEM Windows. Its the issue of licensing that allows vista to be run in a VM only on Business and ultimate versions of vista.
  8. nsbio macrumors 6502a


    Aug 8, 2006
    Yes, the savvy users could probably get the cheaper, OEM, version. But the question still remains as to who is supposed to buy a retail full version Vista box: there seems to be absolutely no market for it except for Mac users and maybe Bill Gates himself who might buy a couple million of boxes "just for kicks" :).
  9. slicedbread macrumors regular

    Nov 5, 2006
    to be honest, who buys windows?? :)

    Most people's OS comes bundled with their Dells and HP's. If you have an old PC should you even be getting vista - I doubt you have the 2GB ram and graphics that is needed to get it running? And if you are savvy enough to build a PC you're gonna get OEM.
  10. synth3tik macrumors 68040


    Oct 11, 2006
    Minneapolis, MN
    I don't even know why intel came out with the celeron. I had a Toshiba with a 1.3G Celeron and my friends 533Mhz IBM Thinkpad kicked it's ass. I see the ads for laptops with celeron chips that state "Vista Ready" My question is how? I could hardly run Win 2k on it...
  11. Eric5h5 macrumors 68020

    Dec 9, 2004
    Why would that ever happen? Every MacOS X version has been faster than the previous one. It's not like Windows at all. The only negative has been increased memory usage (but it's looking like Leopard will actually reverse that trend, in at least some instances).

  12. stadidas macrumors regular

    Feb 27, 2006
    Kent, United Kingdom
    Couldn't have said it better myself. Apple actually give people a reason to upgrade.
  13. slicedbread macrumors regular

    Nov 5, 2006
    Coz they can still market a celeron chip at xxx Mhz even though in reality it runs like a turd. And to be fair, for basic use like Word and IE only, a celeron is passable...
  14. psycoswimmer macrumors 65816


    Sep 27, 2006
    Someone on another thread was running Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) on their 6 year old Powerbook.
  15. MRU Suspended


    Aug 23, 2005
    Exactly. At $200 for home upgrade upto $500 for Ultimate retail, very few people will justify that purchase, especially when they can buy a dell for $500-600 which comes with the OS anyway.
  16. Eraserhead macrumors G4


    Nov 3, 2005
    And given that you have to reformat to get decent performance, and that you need a pretty new machine makes it crazy to upgrade to Vista unless you are in a tiny minority, I'd expect Leopard to sell more retail copies than Vista.
  17. thejadedmonkey macrumors 604


    May 28, 2005
    Which I don't even think was called a powerbook, but a prismo.

    I installed Vista on my mac, and it's horrible. and I guess because of the drivers, there's no Aero interface. I mean, it's just hideous too.

    Someone was laughing at a comment about Vista being the end of MS, but the honest truth is that it just might be the beginning of the end. Dell and HP are looking at Linux, suddenly macs just became "real" computers, and Microsoft's newest OS isn't anything that people like. Sure under the hood it's good, but that's not what anyone sees. Consumers see ugly, and IT peeps see annoyances.
  18. siurpeeman macrumors 603


    Dec 2, 2006
    the OC
    i find a lot of people like vista very much. most of my friends are windows users, and they're taken by vista's visuals and features. while things like integrated search isn't new to us, it is new to them, and they're taking quite a liking to vista. i don't see this as the end of microsoft. they have too many users to just disappear.
  19. slicedbread macrumors regular

    Nov 5, 2006
    MS really pisses me off with their arrogance.
    1) you can't do a fresh install on an upgrade license - changing the way the upgrade disc system has worked after allowing it for the last 5+ OS iterations!
    2) you cant run the cheaper versions of vista in a VM - clearly gouging us mac users (and anyone else who gets in their way)
    3) oem versions are 32bit or 64bit only, you get one and you are stuck with that version only. (And even retail gets you 32bit only, you have to pay to get the 64bit disc sent to you.)
    Wanna move to 64bit later while you give it time for 64bit drivers? Tough, buy a new version of the same OS later thanks!
    Want 64bit now? Please enjoy your driver hell.
    4) How come they don't have family versions or multiple copy discounts? I know LOADS of people with a main desktop + laptop, not to mention the kid's and family computers. Whatever happened to software that you can install anywhere and just be allowed to have one active copy running??

    As you can tell, I'm not pleased with MS's anti-competition/anti-consumer/anti-fair use policies.

    Just an FYI - if you can get a copy of the vista install disc, you can install it without entering a license key and it will run for 30days as a trial w/ full functionality. You can also legally and legitimately extend these 30day trails 3 times for a total of 120days before you are forced to put a license key in. Surely should be enough time for anyone to be put off their crapware!
  20. TBi macrumors 68030


    Jul 26, 2005

    2) Nothing will physically stop you except your conscience...

    3) Retail has both editions on one dvd

    4) and they have a family pack thing now. Buy one ultimate and you get home's for 50 each.
  21. deputy_doofy thread starter macrumors 65816


    Sep 11, 2002
    I didn't mean it would be an immediate end, but you have to admit, this is bad press for them. I haven't seen ONE favorable review of Vista yet, and I've been trying to find one in any PC magazine or website.
    There does come a time when the buying public has had enough and this may be the breaking point...
  22. xUKHCx Administrator emeritus


    Jan 15, 2006
    The Kop
    May check out this site.

    I installed Vista, Aero is alright but the whole flip 3d is complete crud. For example there is no obvious way to get the mouse to activate it. For anyone interested:
    Because that is simple.

    It seems as if they changed things just for the sake of changing things. "Add or remove programs" is now "programs and features" IIRC. Trying to find things in help is a pain and then being able to follow the instructions to find the thing they are telling you about i a right pain, (referring to Office 2007 as well as vista.)

    Office 2007 would not install properly would error everytime. I had to manual go through the registry and delete any reference to Office 2000 and delete all associated files to get it to work.
  23. slicedbread macrumors regular

    Nov 5, 2006
    2) if I didn't want to use windows as its meant to be licensed, there are plenty of other avenues I can go about that, without even having to give MS a penny...

    3) I stand corrected, in Ultimate 64bit is bundled with it. But other retail versions of vista you need to send a coupon off for the 64bit media:

    4) The family pack of Vista is for North America only, us Brits (or anyone else in the world) get no love. And only if you get retail Ultimate as well.
    "The Windows Vista Family Discount is available to customers in the United States and Canada who have purchased the full or upgrade Windows Vista Ultimate retail boxed product."
    And Tiger family pack is $199 for 5 Macs.
    Vista Ultimate retail is $400, plus $50 per additional home premium license (for a max of 2) = $500 for 3 PCs (in which 2 are crippled relative to ultimate)
  24. dgdosen macrumors 65816


    Dec 13, 2003
    I'll call BS

    I (still) have the last and latest rev of a 12" PB - probably 3 years old, and sure it runs Tiger and is fair for browsing, but did you try to run an universal app on it? It's dog slow. I'm sure it's comparable to a 2.0 Vista performance on some other PC (which I have at work). All hardware - apple or ms becomes obsolete. Apple hardware is sexier and more expensive to start with, and therefore you'll have to assume it's going to depreciate more over time. Hell, look at the notes on the MB and MBP web site touting the 7X speed differences. Is Apple lying?

    When we get a copy of Leopard that runs faster on the same hardware as today, I'll eat my words, but I'll bet you need more horsepower to run it.
  25. dgdosen macrumors 65816


    Dec 13, 2003
    You could be right

    I have both - Macs and PCs - and have developed for both environments - enterprise java in eclipse and with .net and c#. I'll say this - Today, it's much easier to be productive on the ms platform than others. For this reason alone, my gut says it will remain a dominant platform.

    Time will tell - competition is good. Innovations from either company help all of us.

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