MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[deconstruct60]

You said:
....
And look at what "Windows on ARM" is really focused on:

• Chromebooks. Very limited web/app clients.
• ....

it isn't focused on Chromebooks primarily. There is also an "always connected" element. That isn't Chromebooks. I haven't run across a single Chromebook with LTE as a standard option at all.

The solutions are limited to lower end Chromebook speeds now because using phone SoC to do the work. But if they moved up to something more akin to a A10X or A11X (i.e., what powers iPad Pro ) their would be less of a gap.

[ By the way the top end of the Chromebook market is largely powered by Intel .... not ARM implementors. Chromebooks don't necessarily mean ARM. ]

 

[singhs.apps]

Apple thinks that the riots now are better than the riots that would happen if they said nothing about the Mac Pro at WWDC and people were expecting it.

Hmmm. Likely it’s just as much about WWDC as perhaps about NAB next week.

Anyhow I get a feeling that this will likely be the last attempt by Apple reg a proper Mac Pro. If miraculously they manage to get decent sales out of it and see sufficient evidence reg it’s viability for another iteration then we might see mMP 2.0.

If not then the iMac pro will be the top performing machine of choice going forward. I don’t see apple doing a third iteration if they stumble.

This was a whole lot of wishy washy talk but that lead of the Pro team seems to be an earnest chap.

 

[deconstruct60]

I'm wondering if Apple getting Mac devs to dual compile this year (or at least iPad devs to dual compile for x86) is part of a plan to give them a head start so they're less reliant on emulation.

WWDC should clear things up but IMHO the framework to make it easier to compose iOS and macOS apps doesn't mean the OS is merging. It is just an easier framework in which to port the apps, but also to insert the different GUI issues. In short, share a larger common core between apps but still have stuff unique to each side.


The "dual compile" is also to make the loading into the AppStore more painless. ( dual compile validation before singular upload. ). Perhaps long term a merge of the AppStores but still have a platform split just like they do between iPhone/AppleTV/iPad . They'd just add Mac to that mix at some point. ( I'm not sure devs will like selling the app once for every possible platform in terms of income stream but it wouldn't be surprising.)

But I'm still becoming less and less convinced that Apple is going to switch fully to ARM.

Honestly, I think that was a bit of a contrived thing. I think there is a difference between dump Intel and dump macOS primarily based on x86. As Yoda said to Obi wan "There is another ...."

Apple could dump Intel and go to Qualcomm/Samsung/etc. and AMD if they got their acts together.

Dumping Intel's radios is believable. Or at least not getting totally dependent upon Intel's radios ( the newest PCH chipset has the central components of a WiFI subsystem built in. That has got to burn the Scrooge McDuck crowd at Apple if they aren't going to use it. And if they do .... do they get stuck. ).

 

[zephonic]

Apple thinks that the riots now are better than the riots that would happen if they said nothing about the Mac Pro at WWDC and people were expecting it.

That's my view as well. The whole thing is eerily similar to last year's "roundtable" discussion.

 

[deconstruct60]

Hmmm. Likely it’s just as much about WWDC as perhaps about NAB next week.

That hocus pocus they put out about going ARM probably plays a role here to. They'd have to be pretty dense not to see the blow back coming from the Mac Pro crowd when float that nonsense out into the discussions.

Apple has no Mac Pro solution no time soon in the ARM space. That green lighted thing for 2020 would extremely likely not work in that system solution space. So there would have been a rational expectation of "WTF are you folks doing" going on with folks waiting on a Mac Pro. Throw the anniversary of the last pow wow on top of NAB , WWDC , and a complete non responsive Intel actually delivering 6 core solutions to the mainstream space. It is a whole lot of nothing ... just like the last 4 years.

So they had a problem and much of it largely of their own making.

( again that meeting was not just about the Mac Pro . They are also 'blank' on MBP and iMac 6 core solutions right now too. That whole "ommpa loompa are working on magical ARM for mac" stunt wasn't going to work on everyone. )

Anyhow I get a feeling that this will likely be the last attempt by Apple reg a proper Mac Pro. If miraculously they manage to get decent sales out of it and see sufficient evidence reg it’s viability for another iteration then we might see mMP 2.0.

If doesn't work in the 3-4 years they'd take to let it die off the iMac Pro would just cover more ground with newer stuff. But it too would probably die off in a iteration or two. I think they either make both survive or neither one does.

 

[singhs.apps]

That hocus pocus they put out about going ARM probably plays a role here to. They'd have to be pretty dense not to see the blow back coming from the Mac Pro crowd when float that nonsense out into the discussions.

Actually yes. I wondered why was Apple trying to spook the Pro users even more than they already are ( whatever scant that remain ) with that stunt. Keep the negotiations sabre rattling internal. Don’t spook us further.

 

[goMac]

Hmmm. Likely it’s just as much about WWDC as perhaps about NAB next week.

Anyhow I get a feeling that this will likely be the last attempt by Apple reg a proper Mac Pro. If miraculously they manage to get decent sales out of it and see sufficient evidence reg it’s viability for another iteration then we might see mMP 2.0.

If not then the iMac pro will be the top performing machine of choice going forward. I don’t see apple doing a third iteration if they stumble.

This was a whole lot of wishy washy talk but that lead at the Pro team seems to be an earnest chap.

Really hard to tell at this point. A pro team is a pretty significant move by Apple, and shows they really are interested in getting back in to the pro market.

That doesn't mean they are guaranteed to be successful, and it doesn't mean they won't push everyone to iMac Pros if they think they can get away with it.

But it's a start.

I think if people knew how bad the voices for the pro market were at Apple they'd be more excited about a pro team.

 

[AidenShaw]

Really hard to tell at this point. A pro team is a pretty significant move by Apple, and shows they really are interested in getting back in to the pro market.

If Apple were interested in the pro market we'd have an announcement of the MP7,1.

Announcing (or leaking) that the MP7,1 will be delayed another year doesn't show "interest" - it shows complete lack of understanding.

 

[Naimfan]

If Apple were interested in the pro market we'd have an announcement of the MP7,1.

Announcing (or leaking) that the MP7,1 will be delayed another year doesn't show "interest" - it shows complete lack of understanding.

Exactly correct.

If it is 2019, Apple might as well not bother, as there won't be any customers left for it.

 

[singhs.apps]

But it's a start.

I think if people knew how bad the voices for the pro market were at Apple they'd be more excited about a pro team.

Agreed.

I mean this is a really fantastic time to be a hardware, software developer or a professional wanting to take that leap into the next level of UI/UX, doesn’t matter which industry you work in. After a long time, the synergy exists again between capacity to create and opportunities to use those creations in real world use cases.

VR really removes one more layer between the designer and his designs ( something I wanted to see when I ventured into CG almost two decades ago ) and on the AR front the sky is the limit in terms of practical use cases. For that you need some grunt and fortunately the hardware side is also keeping up as is ubiquitous existence of the client side interface : the smart phone.

 

[goMac]

If Apple were interested in the pro market we'd have an announcement of the MP7,1.

Announcing (or leaking) that the MP7,1 will be delayed another year doesn't show "interest" - it shows complete lack of understanding.

Depends. If we get to 2019 and they needed the extra time because they did something actually useful and helpful for pros, it'll be fine.

If they are taking until 2019 because they are all quibbling about whether the case should be a pyramid or a cube and the exact gloss to use with what shade of space grey... it's going to not look good for them.

I'm optimistic it's the first one and not the second.

(I'm also not going to debate anyone who is tired of waiting and is buying a PC. Totally understandable.)

 

[AidenShaw]

Depends. If we get to 2019 and they needed the extra time because they did something actually useful and helpful for pros, it'll be fine.

If they are taking until 2019 because they are all quibbling about whether the case should be a pyramid or a cube and the exact gloss to use with what shade of space grey... it's going to not look good for them.

I'm optimistic it's the first one and not the second.

(I'm also not going to debate anyone who is tired of waiting and is buying a PC. Totally understandable.)

So, we can put you in the "glass half full" camp.

 

[goMac]

So, we can put you in the "glass half full" camp.

It's really a hostage situation at this point.

 

[zephonic]

If Apple were interested in the pro market we'd have an announcement of the MP7,1.

I'd say today's article IS the announcement.

Announcing (or leaking) that the MP7,1 will be delayed another year doesn't show "interest" - it shows complete lack of understanding.

There is no delay, as they never mentioned a release date.

Frankly, when they had the round-table last year they said the next Mac Pro would not come in 2017, and a lot of people took that to mean it would come in 2018. But that was never an official statement.

Today's article is the first official announcement regarding the next Mac Pro's availability of any kind.

I don't think it shows complete lack of understanding, either. I think it shows that they didn't have a Mac Pro planned until just before the round-table discussion last year. Designing an entirely new product from scratch takes time. All the more so if Apple indeed wants it to be a halo machine that exceeds everybody's expectations.

 

[AidenShaw]

I don't think it shows complete lack of understanding, either.

The "complete lack of understanding" is simply the idea that the amigos think that they have a couple of years to ponder about a new design.

In the meantime, how do you do AI/ML on the Apple OSX platform? You don't.
In the meantime, how do you do VR on the Apple OSX platform? You don't.

The "time to market" folks would have made a new box by last August, and have it in peoples hands already. And maybe even have had an updated model by now (the latest update would support dual Tesla Volta GPUs).

The "a computer must be a fashion statement" folks are slipping things into 2019 - and could very well release a system that is a complete failure for the target market.

 

[zephonic]

The "complete lack of understanding" is simply the idea that the amigos think that they have a couple of years to ponder about a new design.

I think today's article indicates they know they are on borrowed time. Not having a new Mac Pro at WWDC would have sparked massive outcry. My feeling is this article is simply preemptive damage control.

In the meantime, how do you do AI/ML on the Apple OSX platform? You don't.
In the meantime, how do you do VR on the Apple OSX platform? You don't.

When has that ever been a thing you can do on a Mac?

The "time to market" folks would have made a new box by last August, and have it in peoples hands already. And maybe even have had an updated model by now (the latest update would support dual Tesla Volta GPUs).

You think like a PC guy. They are never gonna make an HP Z or Dell Precision. That is not how Apple does things, and it hasn't been since 1997.
Also, last August? If the roundtable happened shortly after they decided they must make a new MacPro, Aug 2017 would have been impossible, even if they would have simply resuscitated the cheese-grater. That is not how industrial-level production pipelines work.

Apple has a lot riding on the next Mac Pro in terms of mindshare. It better be awesome.

 

[goMac]

You think like a PC guy. They are never gonna make an HP Z or Dell Precision. That is not how Apple does things, and it hasn't been since 1997.

 

[AidenShaw]

I think today's article indicates they know they are on borrowed time.

They were on "borrowed time" at the mea culpa a year ago.

(re ML/AI/VR)
When has that ever been a thing you can do on a Mac?

Jesus.H.Christ on a bicycle.

The hottest, fastest growing areas in computing are CUDA-accelerated AI/ML and VR. One would think that the amigos would want to embrace those trends, instead of contemplating their navels in the redwoods in Marin.

You think like a PC guy.

Thank you.

Apple has a lot riding on the next Mac Pro in terms of mindshare. It better be awesome.

It might have been awesome in early 2017. In mid 2019, it will be irrelevant.

 

[zephonic]

Not sure what you're trying to convey here?

I'm the happy owner of a 4,1>5,1 and I got it precisely because of its internal expandability. Maxed out the drive bays, added memory, got PCIe storage, upgraded CPU, upgraded GPU.

What do you think I'm missing here?
[doublepost=1522972927][/doublepost]

Jesus.H.Christ on a bicycle.

The hottest, fastest growing areas in computing are CUDA-accelerated AI/ML and VR. One would think that the amigos would want to embrace those trends, instead of contemplating their navels in the redwoods in Marin.

Well, maybe, maybe not. You'd think they would have wanted to jump on the CAD/CAM and 3D modeling bandwagon back when that was coming up, all the more so since SJ had Pixar. Truth is, that ship sailed without them, and although there were some half-hearted attempts around 2011 to bring some of that back to the Mac platform, it hasn't really happened.

That stuff is all on Linux and Windows, and I don't see that changing. Ditto for AI, ML, and AR/VR. I think Apple sees that as back-end stuff, and they are not interested in building that kind of hardware.

They still have a fairly large user base in audio, video, and DTP/graphic design. I think the job right now is to make sure they retain (or win back) as many of those users as possible. If they happen to open up new markets, that's great, but I don't think that's the target here.

 

[goMac]

Not sure what you're trying to convey here?

I'm the happy owner of a 4,1>5,1 and I got it precisely because of its internal expandability. Maxed out the drive bays, added memory, got PCIe storage, upgraded CPU, upgraded GPU.

What do you think I'm missing here?

I was just pointing out machines that shipped after 1997.

 

[singhs.apps]

You'd think they would have wanted to jump on the CAD/CAM and 3D modeling bandwagon back when that was coming up, all the more so since SJ had Pixar. Truth is, that ship sailed without them, and although there were some half-hearted attempts around 2011 to bring some of that back to the Mac platform, it hasn't really happened.

That stuff is all on Linux and Windows, and I don't see that changing

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cinema4D/comments/6pkzav/a_letter_from_apple_regarding_gpu_rendering/

"
I recently wrote Tim Cook pleading to have a driver that would allow the next release of Octane and R19's ProRender to be compatible with my 2013 macpro trash can. A rep has been trying to connect with me but I got busy so haven't been able to call him. But this is his latest email to me so I thought I'd share:""

".....As you probably know, the current iMac line is almost all discrete graphic based and that's just the start. At WWDC 2017, we introduced the iMac Pro which is coming later this year and will be a machine specifically targeted to graphic professionals like yourself. Finally, we are currently rethinking the Mac Pro and personally, I’ve never been more excited about an upcoming Mac in my 21-year career at Apple. I really hope you hang on to make technology decisions until at least later this year when the iMac Pro will be available.

From a 3rd party software point of view, my team is specifically tasked with working with Otoy, Chaos Group, Maxon, The Foundry (and others) to make their products great on the Mac. "

Otoy, Maxon, Chaos Group, Foundry = 3D/VR/VFX

More Recently :

https://venturebeat.com/2018/03/19/otoys-octane-4-blends-cinematic-video-and-games-using-ai/

"Octane is a graphics-processing-unit (GPU) accelerated renderer, which uses the graphics card in a computer to render photorealistic images super fast. It can create high quality images at speeds up to 50 times faster than central-processing-unit renderers. It now supports the Unreal and Unity game engines, and Otoy is bringing its Brigade game engine into Octane 4.
Otoy has been using artificial intelligence to eliminate a lot of the noise that pops up in the images, and the latest version of Octane uses AI to remove the noise and complete the image without slowing down the graphics at all, Urbach said.
“That results in a huge savings,” Urbach said. “Machine learning makes a huge difference. Between AI rendering and de-noising and an ability to … move objects around dynamically, we’re approaching being able to have full passive movies built with game engines.”

Otoy is also working on a future technology that will make it easier to render great images using the Mac.

Previously, Otoy did some reverse engineering that enabled Nvidia’s general-purpose-graphics-processing-unit (GPGPU) software, known as CUDA, to run on non-Nvidia hardware built by Advanced Micro Devices. Part of the aim was to get GPGPU programs running on Apple hardware.

“That port didn’t get us on the map,” Urbach said. “We have worked on a new version of that technology that targets the Mac OS.”

Now, Octane is being ported to run on Apple’s Metal graphics applications programming interface. That will be done some time in the future, Urbach said.

“After Octane 4, we’ll do smaller releases that target the Mac,” Urbach said. “We’ll get all of Octane running on Mac OS and iOS.”

Couple of more links of the same vendor at this year's GDC

Start around 26:00 ( for mac and ios systems)

( Start around 09:00 ( for ios systems)

And that is just from one vendor who has been, for the past 3 iterations, dragging it's feet on the mac front.

They still have a fairly large user base in audio, video,

Thanks largely due to FCPX and Logic being virtually the sole remnants of Apple's 'pro' offerings and exclusively available on the mac platform.
Even there an Imac pro would suffice. No need for Mac Pros.

DTP/graphic design

That's mostly 'MBPs are adequate' territory.

Here are a few more links reg Apple + CG :
- https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2008/01/08Apple-Introduces-New-Mac-Pro/
- "offer the ideal system for creative professionals, 3D digital content creators and scientists....

The Imac Pro page :
- "For everyone from photographers to video editors to 3D animators to musicians to software developers to scientists, iMac Pro is ready to turn your biggest ideas into your greatest work."

One of the promo films on the imac pro site using industry standard CG apps
- https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/films/#manvsmachine

There are several but I hope we get the picture. Granted some of this is marketing talk but to suggest that Apple isn't interested in these segments isn't true, certainly not when these very segments are brimming with potential right now.

 

[zephonic]

I was just pointing out machines that shipped after 1997.

Still not sure how that refutes or corroborates the point I was making, but never mind.

 

[fendersrule]

Still not sure how that refutes or corroborates the point I was making, but never mind.

No, you screwed up. You are aware that the cMP WAS the best HP Z or the precision, right?

You ARE aware that the PowerMac MDD (and models prior) WERE the expandable workhorses even prior, right?

You made crap remark. Now just listen to the likes and focus.

 

[mattspace]

That stuff is all on Linux and Windows, and I don't see that changing. Ditto for AI, ML, and AR/VR. I think Apple sees that as back-end stuff, and they are not interested in building that kind of hardware.

I spent today demonstrating VR to a room of 30-40 people, from 5 years old to mid-70s, putting them in the goggles, giving them the controllers. I can tell you, if Apple doesn't get its house in order, they're losing the entire next generation of users.

You put a small kid in VR, and give them Tilt Brush:

1. Kids pick it up instantly - they use that stuff as easily as they breathe.
2. They never get bored, or want to stop "playing".
3. VR is about the same degree of exercise as painting a house - it's exactly the sort of physical activity tablets and traditional games prevent.
4. People think tablets and phones are crack for kids, man, VR is freaking fentanyl and makes an iPad Pro and Pencil look like the most retrograde and boring "creative" device imaginable.

Anyone thinking a child will choose an iPad and Pencil over VR as the place to use tech, or as a creative outlet, is nuts. In terms of delight, the iPad is like watching paint dry, in comparison.

"What's a computer? Oh it's the machine that makes my VR."

 

[zephonic]

No, you screwed up. You are aware that the cMP WAS the best HP Z or the precision, right?

That is why I still have one.

You ARE aware that the PowerMac MDD (and models prior) WERE the expandable workhorses even prior, right?

I'm aware. Back up here.

I was responding to AidenShaw who said:

The "time to market" folks would have made a new box by last August, and have it in peoples hands already. And maybe even have had an updated model by now (the latest update would support dual Tesla Volta GPUs).

and I said:

You think like a PC guy. They are never gonna make an HP Z or Dell Precision. That is not how Apple does things, and it hasn't been since 1997.
Also, last August? If the roundtable happened shortly after they decided they must make a new MacPro, Aug 2017 would have been impossible, even if they would have simply resuscitated the cheese-grater. That is not how industrial-level production pipelines work.

We were not talking about expandable workhorses. We're talking about getting a new product to market in six months. Keep that in mind.

But I concede I should have been more clear. My response was poorly constructed, and subsequent misinterpretation is on me. I tried to condense three long paragraphs into a short one, and that did not work.

So let me not condense it:

You think like a PC guy. A manufacturer like Dell can slap something in a box and get it to market in six months, and Apple did that for a while in the early and mid-1990's, when they had 2500 different models, and seemed hellbent on serving every possible market segment with the same old repackaged crap. That didn't work very well, and SJ recognized that needed to stop.

That was what the 1997 remark was about.

The HP Z and Dell Precision offer every possible configuration with every possible component known to man. Their towers are designed to accommodate every imaginable piece of hardware in every imaginable combination. That is why they can easily throw in a new motherboard every six months and keep stuff up to date.
Apple can't do that. I mean, they could if they wanted to, but that is not their way, and would we really want them to? I like that they narrow down the choices so I don't have to. Even when they boasted about more than a million configurations for the Mac Pro, the actual hardware choices were limited compared to the PC workstation market.
I like that they redesigned the internals of the G5/cMP for each generation, even when they could have just slapped in the new components and be done with it. But that's not how Apple does it.

So no, they're never gonna make an HP Z or Dell Precision, as in a standard (ATX) chassis that will allow you to easily switch parts on a regular basis, and update the machine every six months.

(even though they did say at the round-table that the next Mac Pro will be modular so it can be more easily updated, I don't believe that's what they have in mind)

But yeah, my bad. The way I trimmed it down didn't convey that very well, and taken in isolation, the sentence about the HP Z and Dell Precision was always gonna trigger that reaction. I should have known better.

You made crap remark. Now just listen to the likes and focus.

Lol. Yeah, the likes. That's what we're all really here for, right?