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I do think there is a chance that “modular” might not mean what you want it to mean. It might just mean modular at the point of purchase - i.e. you buy it with the modules you want for your workload - and not necessarily changeable thereafter, or changeable only with Apple’s own “modules”.

That last "only with Apple's modules" is extremely unlikely. Apple's representative example of modularity was with a "modular display". That was explicitly mentioned in their talk. Aside of their brief foray into the Apple Display Connector , they have used standard connections. ( yes mini-DisplayPort is a standards connection that Apple favored. Thunderbolt is defacto a standard. etc. ) So inferencing that they are going to deeply commit to exactly 180 opposite of one of their few explicit examples is a huge leap.

The iMac Pro has standard so-DIMMs even though you can't easily get to them. The Mac Pro 2013 has DIMMs. Standards which don't get in the way of their requirements/objectives aren't necessarily thrown out willy nilly.

Apple has a modern mantra now of security and privacy so yeah the boot SSD controller will probably be soldered onto the board. If the storage is not the primary boot device then the more mainstream standards have a shot.


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Right, so they have talked about it being “high throughput”, but then they also talk about Thunderbolt being in that category. They haven’t said “optimized for throughput” as suggested by another poster.

Apple has talked about Thunderbolt being high throughput versus its other standard port competitors ( Std Serial Port, USB , Firewire, PCMCIA/ExpresCard/PCCard , etc. ). However, they haven't couched it as being the high end of throughput.

In the pow-wow session

"... so you look at that architecture of that Mac Pro, it had great Thunderbolt external I/O and we said: ‘This is a great opportunity to change what had been a conventional build a big card rack and slot a bunch of cards in there.’ We said: ‘a lot of this storage can be achieved with very high performance with Thunderbolt. So we built a design in part around that assumption, as well. Some of the pro community has been sort of moving that direction, but we had certainly in mind the need for expandability. If you wanted a great RAID solution in there, it probably made a lot more sense to put it outside the box than actually be constrained within the physical enclosure that contained the CPU. So, I think we went into it with some interesting ideas, and not all of them paid off. ..."

Some bets they made on Thunderbolt paid off in the 2013 design and some did not. Thunderbolt is neither completely a looser ( as some on this forum keep trying to characterize it as ) nor is is 100% covering all of the highest end solutions ( which is another far-out fringe keep characterizing it as also). Thunderbolt is more than "good enough" to make it into the next Mac Pro. It has a bigger impact on the rest of the Mac line up, but that role doesn't have to go down to zero on the next Mac Pro.


The one, and only one, storage drive would hopefully be in that scope of "not all of the paid off" camp for the next Mac Pro. That doesn't necessarily mean empty SATA bays and dangling power cables, but some additional drives inside would help ( some M.2 slots , some 2.5" sleds , etc.) isn't spelled out. Given how higher end M.2 SSD drives can saturate x4 PCI-e v3 lanes something outside of Thunderbolts scope would likely have a bigger pay-off than slapping yet another (past 4 TB ) sockets on a New Mac Pro.



“Expandable”, to your point, can easily refer to external expandability - where it seems clear Apple has been very focused, including around external GPUs - or, to come back to the “modular” point, could easily refer only to Apple proprietary modules using proprietary connectors and designs.


They are very focused on eGPUs because probably 85+ % of the Macs they sell can use them. (a decent chance that's in the 95+ % range ). Mac Pro are a single digit now and extremely likely single digits back in 2009-2010. A revised Mac Pro isn't going to change that ( probably would be doing well to get into the 1-3% range. )

So yes. Display docking stations and eGPUs will probably be in the Apple store because most of the Macs they sell can use them. ( the next Mac Pro would only be an incremental addition to that group. The Mac Pro probably won't be the main driver of 'display' sales. That's a tail wags dog notion. Apple does display so 'need' Mac Pro to be the main driver. )



I agree, the suggestion that Apple would put standard slots in the new Mac Pro for people to plug in commodity off-the-shelf hardware defies all their established business practices and principles,

Although I can see how you might get to that position from what I wrote, you are reading far more into that. There is a difference between the full range of "race to the bottom" commodity stuff and the space than the space a substantive number of "Pros" in the Mac space have cards for. For example, Sonnet has a list of PCI-e cards that work with their Thunderbolt expansion enclosures. The first column on that list is "Mac". ( some of those don't have Windows check boxes... only as a point that there is more than the lowest commodity in cards is not the whole market. ) Pragmatically that is the older Mac Pro 2009-2010 (models and a bit earlier in some cases ). Once those all lapse into Obsolete status at Apple that column pragmatically disappears. That's wouldn't be a good thing for Apple in trying to sell a future Mac Pro.

More than likely Apple already has a "slot usage" survey that is at least a good (and probably better) than the "What's in your slots " survey on this forum. Some things folks used slots for would be better covered with better internal hardware ( modern SATA 6G bus , M.2 slots , USB 3 Type-A sockets (by the PCH that wasn't from 'stone ages' ) , etc. ). But an open slot or two would cover a wide sprectrum of those folks without having to jump into an Express III D ( some MBP users will 'get by' with that, so just pure slot count 'war' isn't necessarily a big winner. )



and requires them to unwind several years of history and “progress” away from those things. Apple haven’t sold a Mac with PCI slots for six years,

The six years don't mean a whole lot in "PCI-e slot" ware rhetoric. They didn't build any non PCI-e slot having Mac Pro in that span either ! The bulk of that six year span is doing a whole lot of nothing. That doesn't build presence to non-slots in Mac Pro space.

It would be entirely different had Apple churned out 2-3 non PCI-e slot Mac Pro systems in that six year span. That would be setting precedence and groundwork. Do nothing means little more than needing to fix their "Rip van Winkle" problem. Not a PCI-e slot war mandate problem.

If the uncouple the GPU and CPU thermal solutions ( likely since they said that was a problem) then the CPU and primary GPU solutions can be distinct and they could more readily do updates. That leaves the resources for a 3rd x16 slot at least as decoupled from the other two. That should open more flexitlibity in the configuration options, not less.

The impediment constraint that may lead them to leave the '2nd' x16 lane resources unused if they are still fixated on a literally desktop solution with a relatively small footprint. If they are willing to go deskside again that blocking out some power ( ~2800W ) and volume ( 2-3 slow widths ) for a slot wouldn't be a problem.

I don’t see them going back on that which essentially requires implicit acknowledgement that all of that was a mistake.

All of that wasn't a mistake. Some of it worked and some of it didn't. Apple explicitly said so. Trying to huff and puff until Apple admits that every aspect was a mistake .... Yeah that is going to be a very long wait because they have already blown that notion up. It wasn't. ( Apple's Mac sales didn't materially get impacted. They sold Mac Pro. They have sold iMac Pros and iMacs to former Mac pro class system buyers. )

In my view, if you look at Apple’s principles, their history, how long this is taking, the fact that they have kicked off a big pro workflow analysis exercise, and the language they’ve used to describe the new Mac Pro,

The Pro Workflow exercise is about "pro" Macs. not the Mac Pro solely. Surprise, surprise, surprise Apple cares about the Mac ecosystem as a whole more than just only one specific Mac product. Apple clearly outline that their pro sales are e MBP , iMac , and sngle digit Mac Pro in that order of magnitude of sales.

Second, they described next to no details about the new Mac Pro at all. The vast majority of what they talk about over these two sessions was what they had done and are doing. Besides dispelling the notion that they have completely walked away from the Mac Pro space, they didn't violate the long term corporate practice of talking in detail about upcoming products. They didn't. Most of the folks yelping about that is just projection; often more so of what they wanted to hear rather than what was actually said.

my expectation at this point is that it will be a chassis with only proprietary internal connectors for proprietary modules only sold by Apple, preserving tight integration between software and hardware.

Yanking out the default boot drive and display probably. However, with Thunderbolt PCI-e expansion enclosures and Thunderbolt making those PCI-e equipment pragmatically transparent to the software, macOS has to handle 3rd party cards anyway.

It really isn't about tight integration. It could be about saving volume (and power). But that more so could be limited to lopping of the 5.25" drive bays ( Opticals extremely likely aren't going to make the cut) and perhaps spinning metal all together.


.... And it may fail, because it still doesn’t give pros what they want (which is something Apple doesn’t want to give them), or it may be a roaring success. Other workstation OEMs will mock it... and then eventually copy it.

About 3:42 ( where starts talking about transitions and being abrupt ... )


'they call us crazy. ... picking horses to ride .... "

[ Resources in the Scrooge McDuck money pit and resources assigned to the Mac Product are not the same thing. ]

" we are going to leave it out .... some folks are going to call us names. ... they pay us to make those choices '

then about 11:30 -13:40

There is huge conflict in Apple worldview in that folks are paying Apple to choose nothing about a system ( i.e., to sell an empty as possible shell ). That isn't Apple's objective.

I can't find the video with the quote from Jobs about IT folks 'being often wrong" ( it is all things digital interview by Mossberg ). Similar with the notion that when people buy then great (get to come to work next day) and don't buy then (don't if longer term). That people who indirectly buy for others ( or repair/service for others ) aren't necessarily 100% aligned with end users.

The other vendors will copy it because they are trying to be everything to everybody. That is not what Apple's trying to do.
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I'd rephrase that to what their customers felt worked OK.

Apple has a metric of measuring what people buy (and don't buy ) in repsonse. So their "worked OK" has a customer component in it. The farce is that the MP 2013 and iMac Pro have utterly and completely failed int he first year or so. Not really true.


The cMP was working fine,

Got numbers to back that up? As a percentage of Macs sold it was probably trending down even in the 2009-2010 era. If Mac Pros were growing at a equal rate to laptops, Apple wouldn't have had a huge lull from 2010-2013.

Folks "protested" the new Mac Pro by not buying and Mac sales never saw a big drop in sales.





all they had to do was update it with newer technology and the majority of their pro users would likely be happy...today.

Chuckle... a fair amount of the yelping is about old stuff. 5.25" drive bays and SATA power/data cables. a phypsical specification that dates from almost two decades ago. etc.
 
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There is an informative slide in the deck that AMD used when they introduced the Radeon Pro WX 8200 . It is the mix of 2D , entry 3D , mid 3d and high 3D workflows

AMD%20RADEON%20PRO%20Press%20Deck_FINAL(1)_04_575px.jpg


https://www.anandtech.com/show/13210/amd-announces-radeon-pro-wx-8200

Most of the 2D users went into entry 3D , some into mid , and yes a bit left over into the high 3D market. But if the next Mac Pro didn't cover the highest of 3D subset that is still 90+ % of the market. What is entry/mid/high is changing as new tech is rolled out, but users generally are not in a "money is no object, I just crave ultimate speed" mode. Most will pay a bit more for "more" but not pay lots more.

Entry , mid , and high are not evenly split into thirds at all. Being the ultimate fire-breathing, power monster with the ultimate number of slots isn't going to get Apple volume (and break even ) in the pro space. [ the chart is percentages, not volume. So while there are more high end now in volume the larger percent change in entry and mid mean they have grow at a bit faster rate. ]


The biggest problem has been not moving from 2013-now with the Mac Pro system. The Mac Pro isn't going to work long term if they are going keep on diving completely back into the 'Rip van Winkle' rabbit hole for 3-6 years at a time.
Even if Apple doesn't want to spend resources on updating the entire system a smaller crew/team that bumps the configurations with GPU updates would keep them far more attached to the market. These super long naps means Apple is missing events. (far more disconnect than just missing upgrade sales. )
 
100% of the market is addressable by a standard slotbox, and not a single sale would be lost.

That can't be said often enough .
It'd be a win-win scenario for Apple and customers alike ; proprietary solutions and lack of expandability on the other hand have no merit .

A tcMP-like design would be great as a super-mini or xMac ( gasp! ) , as small size and weight and portability are a factor for a bunch of users , but of course it'd have to be priced differently .
 
That can't be said often enough .

Obviously, a short-term-thinking beancounter, the sort of person more concerned with protecting their current business model, and prepared to compromise the products in the process, the sort of accountant that Jobs warned ruined product companies, might think every major component that's user-upgradable represents a theft of a sale from the next release...
 
Got numbers to back that up? As a percentage of Macs sold it was probably trending down even in the 2009-2010 era. If Mac Pros were growing at a equal rate to laptops, Apple wouldn't have had a huge lull from 2010-2013.
I do not. However there are a lot of users in this forum who are holding on to and / or buying the older model because the new one does not meet their needs. Also, the mea culpa Apple has done regarding the 6,1 Mac Pro appears to support my statement.

Chuckle... a fair amount of the yelping is about old stuff. 5.25" drive bays and SATA power/data cables. a phypsical specification that dates from almost two decades ago. etc.
I haven't seen too many (in fact I can't think of a single one) posts advocating the retention of the 5.25" drive bay. Many have argued for the continuance of hard drive bays (presumably 3.5" and / or 2.5"). The physical specification doesn't have to be identical to the cMP specs but I don't see those specs being an issue either. Mainly people are wanting support for the newer processors, newer memory, newer video, newer I/O (USB 3.0 and / or Thunderbolt), etc. All completely doable in the cMP physical specification.
 
My 2012 MBP was fine when shipped with its 500GB HDD and 4GB RAM. With time, it copped another 4GB RAM modules and a 64GB SSD, the 500GB drive replacing the optical drive.

With time, that 64GB SSD turned into a 128GB SSD. That was fine for the time.

The 500GB HDD then got replaced with a 2TB HDD.

A bit later, the 2x 4GB RAM modules became 2x8GB modules and finally, the 128GB SSD was replaced with a 500GB one.

In 2018, it's only now starting to show its age, taking longer and longer to deal with FCP filters when trying to edit on the fly. If it didn't have a soldered CPU, i'd be sporting a faster Ivy CPU as well, but alas, i'm stuck with what it shipped with. Those that bought Lattitudes, ThinkPads or EliteBooks are not.

Imagine if this machine was still sporting 4GB of RAM and a 500GB spinning HDD...

I'm still adamant that an HP Z series running MacOS makes a better Mac "Pro" than Apple does. Apple makes glorified FaceBook machines. By god I hope the new Mac Pro changes this.
 
I can assure that there is way more people using Z8xx and supermicro Gtr7048 or even classic macpro than there are imacpro / macpro 6.1 user in my busisness (cinematography)... or maybe you dont deal with uncompress 8k/6k/4 footage like me.

people just line to rent my 12u IT cart with 2 maxed out xserve 3.1/tesla 1u grid/supermicro 24 bay... why?
absolute redondency... with zero downtime waranty

try to see what happen when you backup a 2/3 redmag and the powers goes down on set and you are using a promise or areca thunderbolt „pro“ raid...

there is just no alternative to server harware when you need reliability...

do the math.

with one dual cpu mother board / tower they can adress a whole range of machine going from 3-4000$ to 35k$...
and dont forget that huge company wont source processor/ram or anything else from ebay like we do...
All the industry rely on PCIex16 standard, and all software handle multi-gpu...

Apple is not stupid, they know how many of us use cMP with 2 x5690 / 128gb of ram and a pcie expander for GPU and large raid array
so if they come with anything else than a 19 »rack or a true tower with at least 3 16x slot a double cpu socket and a M2 slot, people will just keep on building hackintosh... or buy hp Z station.

they are aware that a maxed out cMP with a 16x gpu expension chassis with a 24 drive raid and 4 quadro p4000 is making circle around a maxed out imacpro... a 2009 sub 3000$ machine smoking a 15000$ brand new 2018 machine is embarassing...
 
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That last "only with Apple's modules" is extremely unlikely. Apple's representative example of modularity was with a "modular display". That was explicitly mentioned in their talk.

Let us hope so.

Aside of their brief foray into the Apple Display Connector , they have used standard connections. ( yes mini-DisplayPort is a standards connection that Apple favored. Thunderbolt is defacto a standard. etc. ) So inferencing that they are going to deeply commit to exactly 180 opposite of one of their few explicit examples is a huge leap.

Predominantly standard video connectors? Hmmm...I must have bought Macs at the perfectly wrong time for the past 25 years ... /S (I probably have a dozen video adaptors in my Mac graveyard junkbox).

Case in point, while a DB15 (male) port is pedantically a "standard", when PCs are using a DE15 (female) instead, the Mac owner is stuck buying a new cable or F-F adaptor because the cable that came with the display doesn't fit. Similarly, I don't believe that Apple has ever (willingly) shipped a Mac with an HDMI port.

Similarly, Apple has a hangup on inventing hybrids designs to gang multiple protocols together to clean up cables - - sure, its a neat idea, but it never ages well: ADC, Thunderbolt (TB1 & TB2) are three examples from within just the past decade...

...and that's even before noting that TB3 isn't quite a USB-C "bog standard" compliant either.

The iMac Pro has standard so-DIMMs even though you can't easily get to them.

Being non-accessible makes their 'standardization' from the consumer's point of view ... a Pyrrhic victory.

The Mac Pro 2013 ...

Nah, let's stick with the iMac Pro - - even before considering if they can be readily replaced after point of sale, just how 'standard' is its SSD? Ditto for all of the contemporary MacBook Pro laptops? Apple doesn't use the M.2 standard.

Apple has a modern mantra now of security and privacy so yeah the boot SSD controller will probably be soldered onto the board.

Understood (& understandable), but ...

If the storage is not the primary boot device then the more mainstream standards have a shot.

...that "have a shot" is still a risk (not a real, tangible assurance from Apple) and that risk includes multiple factors of consideration, including that (a) there will actually be an expansion slot of any sort; (b) that if present, it will accommodate an open standard; (c) that it is even physically accessible (post-sale) to mere mortals.

Some bets they made on Thunderbolt paid off in the 2013 design and some did not. Thunderbolt is neither completely a looser ( as some on this forum keep trying to characterize it as ) nor is is 100% covering all of the highest end solutions ( which is another far-out fringe keep characterizing it as also). Thunderbolt is more than "good enough" to make it into the next Mac Pro. It has a bigger impact on the rest of the Mac line up, but that role doesn't have to go down to zero on the next Mac Pro.

Frankly, I didn't really see the TB1 in the 2013 Mac Pro as really being much of a "win", particularly considering how short-lived it was as well as how many headaches it invoked to employ it in a more 'open' architecture. Granted, pain is sometimes necessary, but this one was IMO overwhelmingly put onto the backs of the customers...and once again, much of that pain was because of Apple trying to gang protocols into a single cable.

Looking at Apple's history on trying to combine (video + data): ADC, TB1, TB2 ... and now USB-C/TB3
...the story line right now seems to be a "Okay, Fourth time's the charm!"

The one, and only one, storage drive would hopefully be in that scope of "not all of the paid off" camp for the next Mac Pro. That doesn't necessarily mean empty SATA bays and dangling power cables, but some additional drives inside would help (some M.2 slots , some 2.5" sleds , etc.) isn't spelled out. Given how higher end M.2 SSD drives can saturate x4 PCI-e v3 lanes something outside of Thunderbolts scope would likely have a bigger pay-off than slapping yet another (past 4 TB ) sockets on a New Mac Pro.

Sure, but given that Apple has their own proprietary "M.2 variant" in use, why wouldn't they just use their existing interface, and leverage their existing volume in MBP SSD's to their advantage? This approach is very logical for Apple to take, although it screws the customer out of having an open M.2 standard to use with 3rd Party hardware - - time will tell if Apple Profits (Stockholders) win, or if Apple Customers win.

They are very focused on eGPUs because probably 85+ % of the Macs they sell can use them. (a decent chance that's in the 95+ % range ). Mac Pro are a single digit now and extremely likely single digits back in 2009-2010. A revised Mac Pro isn't going to change that ( probably would be doing well to get into the 1-3% range. )

So yes. Display docking stations and eGPUs will probably be in the Apple store because most of the Macs they sell can use them. ( the next Mac Pro would only be an incremental addition to that group.

Agreed, although a counterpoint here is that off-the-shelf PCIe graphics cards can't readily be used in Mac Pros (assuming the return of PCIe slots) because of Apple decisions.

The Mac Pro probably won't be the main driver of 'display' sales. That's a tail wags dog notion. Apple does display so 'need' Mac Pro to be the main driver. )

From an engineering/design standpoint, they could choose to make a display simply by recycling iMac Pro components into a "brainless" iMac Pro. If they wanted to be halfway clever, they could use the freed-up internal space to incorporate an eGPU expansion box (and maybe even some M.2 slots or whatever). The chronic problem that Apple has had in the dedicated display space is that customers don't see their product offerings as being particularly compelling to buy at the high price that Apple invariably asks for them.

More than likely Apple already has a "slot usage" survey that is at least a good (and probably better) than the "What's in your slots " survey on this forum.

But of course they do ... but that doesn't mean that they've thoroughly data-mined it to understand what their customers *want*, as opposed to what they've already deployed. I know that I have more PCIe cards than slots right now, and if I had had any empty slots, I'd be deploying M.2 sticks in the immediate term to supplement or replace a 3.5" based RAID0.

The Pro Workflow exercise is about "pro" Macs. not the Mac Pro solely. Surprise, surprise, surprise Apple cares about the Mac ecosystem as a whole more than just only one specific Mac product. Apple clearly outline that their pro sales are e MBP , iMac , and sngle digit Mac Pro in that order of magnitude of sales.

A fair enough point, but other than FCPX, where's the software support for all of these Pro workflows?

I can't find the video with the quote from Jobs about IT folks 'being often wrong" ( it is all things digital interview by Mossberg ). Similar with the notion that when people buy then great (get to come to work next day) and don't buy then (don't if longer term). That people who indirectly buy for others ( or repair/service for others ) aren't necessarily 100% aligned with end users.

A good point worth noting, because when Apple _doesn't_ offer an "empty box" for customization, they're functionally the "indirect" who chronically doesn't align with the end users.

Folks "protested" the new Mac Pro by not buying and Mac sales never saw a big drop in sales.

Sure, but part of this also has to do with how the cMP had been declining in relevance due to engineering negligence even before 2013. Case in point, the cMP never even got its motherboard upgraded to SATA-3 for its 3.5" drive bays, even though the spec was ready for the 2009, 2010, & 2012 versions.

Chuckle... a fair amount of the yelping is about old stuff. 5.25" drive bays and SATA power/data cables. a physical specification that dates from almost two decades ago. etc.

Sure, but in counterpoint, even when things like SATA-3 aren't the best option technically, they're still examples of customer-trusted Open standards that aren't subject to Apple's whims for longer term operational support & maintainability in the User workflows. Ditto for M.2 and others.[/S]
 
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Similarly, I don't believe that Apple has ever (willingly) shipped a Mac with an HDMI port.

Not sure what you mean by willingly, but HDMI ports are not uncommon on older Macs. My 2015 MBP has one, as do the MacMini and MacPro.


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A quick search on everymac.com suggests HDMI was standard on MBP's from 2013 to 2016. The MacMini has had it since 2010.
 
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Not sure what you mean by willingly, but HDMI ports are not uncommon on older Macs. My 2015 MBP has one, as do the MacMini and MacPro.


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A quick search on everymac.com suggests HDMI was standard on MBP's from 2013 to 2016. The MacMini has had it since 2010.

Thanks for the check ... I've never had any Macs with HDMI and it looks like between my 2009 & 2017, I missed them on the MBP's I've had. And the mini has gotten so ancient, I literally didn't think about checking it.

Even so, my point about the plethora of video ports on the Mac over the years still stands - - I really should just empty my "junk drawer" at some point for a photograph of all the ones I've accumulated (including two dongles that I had to get for my 2009 MBP).
 
Frankly, I didn't really see the TB1 in the 2013 Mac Pro as really being much of a "win", particularly considering how short-lived it was as well as how many headaches it invoked to employ it in a more 'open' architecture. Granted, pain is sometimes necessary, but this one was IMO overwhelmingly put onto the backs of the customers...and once again, much of that pain was because of Apple trying to gang protocols into a single cable.
FYI, the 2013 Mac Pro has TB2.
 
TB1: unibodyMBP 2011, rMBP 2012
TB2: rMBP 2013-2015
TB3: MBP 2016-2018

TB1: MBA 2011-2014
TB2: MBA 2015

TB1: MacMini 2011-2012
TB2: MacMini 2014

TB1: iMac 2011-2013
TB2: iMac5K 2014-2015, iMac4K 2015, iMacHD 2015
TB3: iMac 2017, iMacPro 2018

TB2: Mac Pro 2013
 
Apple has not at all made it clear that they are serious about developing the next MP - repeating that claim endlessly won't make it a fact , not even in a certain cultural environment in a certain country . ;)
Again, I'd argue that the fact that Apple has held specific events where they have talked about the Mac Pro (and Apple very rarely do such a thing) as evidence to the contrary.

Don't understand the significance of the comment about about cultural environment and country, sorry.
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To me this means they are (once again) working on proprietary hardware. If they would use standard hardware (like we all want) they could spit out a new Mac Pro in 6 months.
Yep, agreed.
 
Again, I'd argue that the fact that Apple has held specific events where they have talked about the Mac Pro (and Apple very rarely do such a thing) as evidence to the contrary.

Don't understand the significance of the comment about about cultural environment and country, sorry.
He meant that just because Apple's exec repeating blanket statements and posing a seemingly assuring stance about their seriousness in developing the next MP, those alone are not enough to satisfy the anxiety and doubts among "pros" who have gather mountains of evidence suggesting otherwise. And if your gauge in this is the slight openness departed from the usual secrecy of their more successful consumer products then I think most "pros" wouldn't agree with that also. They have not committed to reveal even a range of possible form factors and specs, let alone exact launch date and supported architectures which are crucial for pros deciding whether or not to take the product seriously.

And then repeating a false claim endlessly hoping it will skew facts has been a rather effective political strategy in modern social media infested US of A.
 
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That last "only with Apple's modules" is extremely unlikely. Apple's representative example of modularity was with a "modular display". That was explicitly mentioned in their talk. Aside of their brief foray into the Apple Display Connector , they have used standard connections. ( yes mini-DisplayPort is a standards connection that Apple favored. Thunderbolt is defacto a standard. etc. ) So inferencing that they are going to deeply commit to exactly 180 opposite of one of their few explicit examples is a huge leap.

The iMac Pro has standard so-DIMMs even though you can't easily get to them. The Mac Pro 2013 has DIMMs. Standards which don't get in the way of their requirements/objectives aren't necessarily thrown out willy nilly.

Apple has a modern mantra now of security and privacy so yeah the boot SSD controller will probably be soldered onto the board. If the storage is not the primary boot device then the more mainstream standards have a shot.




Apple has talked about Thunderbolt being high throughput versus its other standard port competitors ( Std Serial Port, USB , Firewire, PCMCIA/ExpresCard/PCCard , etc. ). However, they haven't couched it as being the high end of throughput.

In the pow-wow session

"... so you look at that architecture of that Mac Pro, it had great Thunderbolt external I/O and we said: ‘This is a great opportunity to change what had been a conventional build a big card rack and slot a bunch of cards in there.’ We said: ‘a lot of this storage can be achieved with very high performance with Thunderbolt. So we built a design in part around that assumption, as well. Some of the pro community has been sort of moving that direction, but we had certainly in mind the need for expandability. If you wanted a great RAID solution in there, it probably made a lot more sense to put it outside the box than actually be constrained within the physical enclosure that contained the CPU. So, I think we went into it with some interesting ideas, and not all of them paid off. ..."

Some bets they made on Thunderbolt paid off in the 2013 design and some did not. Thunderbolt is neither completely a looser ( as some on this forum keep trying to characterize it as ) nor is is 100% covering all of the highest end solutions ( which is another far-out fringe keep characterizing it as also). Thunderbolt is more than "good enough" to make it into the next Mac Pro. It has a bigger impact on the rest of the Mac line up, but that role doesn't have to go down to zero on the next Mac Pro.


The one, and only one, storage drive would hopefully be in that scope of "not all of the paid off" camp for the next Mac Pro. That doesn't necessarily mean empty SATA bays and dangling power cables, but some additional drives inside would help ( some M.2 slots , some 2.5" sleds , etc.) isn't spelled out. Given how higher end M.2 SSD drives can saturate x4 PCI-e v3 lanes something outside of Thunderbolts scope would likely have a bigger pay-off than slapping yet another (past 4 TB ) sockets on a New Mac Pro.






They are very focused on eGPUs because probably 85+ % of the Macs they sell can use them. (a decent chance that's in the 95+ % range ). Mac Pro are a single digit now and extremely likely single digits back in 2009-2010. A revised Mac Pro isn't going to change that ( probably would be doing well to get into the 1-3% range. )

So yes. Display docking stations and eGPUs will probably be in the Apple store because most of the Macs they sell can use them. ( the next Mac Pro would only be an incremental addition to that group. The Mac Pro probably won't be the main driver of 'display' sales. That's a tail wags dog notion. Apple does display so 'need' Mac Pro to be the main driver. )





Although I can see how you might get to that position from what I wrote, you are reading far more into that. There is a difference between the full range of "race to the bottom" commodity stuff and the space than the space a substantive number of "Pros" in the Mac space have cards for. For example, Sonnet has a list of PCI-e cards that work with their Thunderbolt expansion enclosures. The first column on that list is "Mac". ( some of those don't have Windows check boxes... only as a point that there is more than the lowest commodity in cards is not the whole market. ) Pragmatically that is the older Mac Pro 2009-2010 (models and a bit earlier in some cases ). Once those all lapse into Obsolete status at Apple that column pragmatically disappears. That's wouldn't be a good thing for Apple in trying to sell a future Mac Pro.

More than likely Apple already has a "slot usage" survey that is at least a good (and probably better) than the "What's in your slots " survey on this forum. Some things folks used slots for would be better covered with better internal hardware ( modern SATA 6G bus , M.2 slots , USB 3 Type-A sockets (by the PCH that wasn't from 'stone ages' ) , etc. ). But an open slot or two would cover a wide sprectrum of those folks without having to jump into an Express III D ( some MBP users will 'get by' with that, so just pure slot count 'war' isn't necessarily a big winner. )





The six years don't mean a whole lot in "PCI-e slot" ware rhetoric. They didn't build any non PCI-e slot having Mac Pro in that span either ! The bulk of that six year span is doing a whole lot of nothing. That doesn't build presence to non-slots in Mac Pro space.

It would be entirely different had Apple churned out 2-3 non PCI-e slot Mac Pro systems in that six year span. That would be setting precedence and groundwork. Do nothing means little more than needing to fix their "Rip van Winkle" problem. Not a PCI-e slot war mandate problem.

If the uncouple the GPU and CPU thermal solutions ( likely since they said that was a problem) then the CPU and primary GPU solutions can be distinct and they could more readily do updates. That leaves the resources for a 3rd x16 slot at least as decoupled from the other two. That should open more flexitlibity in the configuration options, not less.

The impediment constraint that may lead them to leave the '2nd' x16 lane resources unused if they are still fixated on a literally desktop solution with a relatively small footprint. If they are willing to go deskside again that blocking out some power ( ~2800W ) and volume ( 2-3 slow widths ) for a slot wouldn't be a problem.



All of that wasn't a mistake. Some of it worked and some of it didn't. Apple explicitly said so. Trying to huff and puff until Apple admits that every aspect was a mistake .... Yeah that is going to be a very long wait because they have already blown that notion up. It wasn't. ( Apple's Mac sales didn't materially get impacted. They sold Mac Pro. They have sold iMac Pros and iMacs to former Mac pro class system buyers. )



The Pro Workflow exercise is about "pro" Macs. not the Mac Pro solely. Surprise, surprise, surprise Apple cares about the Mac ecosystem as a whole more than just only one specific Mac product. Apple clearly outline that their pro sales are e MBP , iMac , and sngle digit Mac Pro in that order of magnitude of sales.

Second, they described next to no details about the new Mac Pro at all. The vast majority of what they talk about over these two sessions was what they had done and are doing. Besides dispelling the notion that they have completely walked away from the Mac Pro space, they didn't violate the long term corporate practice of talking in detail about upcoming products. They didn't. Most of the folks yelping about that is just projection; often more so of what they wanted to hear rather than what was actually said.



Yanking out the default boot drive and display probably. However, with Thunderbolt PCI-e expansion enclosures and Thunderbolt making those PCI-e equipment pragmatically transparent to the software, macOS has to handle 3rd party cards anyway.

It really isn't about tight integration. It could be about saving volume (and power). But that more so could be limited to lopping of the 5.25" drive bays ( Opticals extremely likely aren't going to make the cut) and perhaps spinning metal all together.




About 3:42 ( where starts talking about transitions and being abrupt ... )


'they call us crazy. ... picking horses to ride .... "

[ Resources in the Scrooge McDuck money pit and resources assigned to the Mac Product are not the same thing. ]

" we are going to leave it out .... some folks are going to call us names. ... they pay us to make those choices '

then about 11:30 -13:40

There is huge conflict in Apple worldview in that folks are paying Apple to choose nothing about a system ( i.e., to sell an empty as possible shell ). That isn't Apple's objective.

I can't find the video with the quote from Jobs about IT folks 'being often wrong" ( it is all things digital interview by Mossberg ). Similar with the notion that when people buy then great (get to come to work next day) and don't buy then (don't if longer term). That people who indirectly buy for others ( or repair/service for others ) aren't necessarily 100% aligned with end users.

The other vendors will copy it because they are trying to be everything to everybody. That is not what Apple's trying to do.
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Apple has a metric of measuring what people buy (and don't buy ) in repsonse. So their "worked OK" has a customer component in it. The farce is that the MP 2013 and iMac Pro have utterly and completely failed int he first year or so. Not really true.




Got numbers to back that up? As a percentage of Macs sold it was probably trending down even in the 2009-2010 era. If Mac Pros were growing at a equal rate to laptops, Apple wouldn't have had a huge lull from 2010-2013.

Folks "protested" the new Mac Pro by not buying and Mac sales never saw a big drop in sales.







Chuckle... a fair amount of the yelping is about old stuff. 5.25" drive bays and SATA power/data cables. a phypsical specification that dates from almost two decades ago. etc.
Funny that you think it's "extremely unlikely", and I think there is a good chance of it - and that it's one of few logical solutions for reconciling the conflicting interests and for explaining the timeline and R&D they are doing. So guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think saying the monitor is a "representative example" of the sort of modularity they want to pursue is drawing an inference that isn't really there. It's used as an example of a component of modularity in a pro Mac system - and almost in passing at that - but I don't think we can assert that it's intended to be a representative example (or, for that matter, know what that would even mean if they had said that).

My comment about proprietary connectors was for a (hypothetical) Mac Pro that had internal modularity in some fashion, but since you mention it I wouldn't put it past them to do the same for external too if they thought it made sense. And on that front, you're forgetting Apple's biggest proprietary connector of all - Lightning. I'm not suggesting that Lightning will play a role in a Mac Pro, but Apple clearly has no qualms with using proprietary connectors where they believe it is of benefit (to them or us or both).

It's kind of academic that the RAM slots in the iMac Pro are standard. They might as well not be. The point is you can't get to them (Apple explicitly removed that option) and requires you to buy RAM from them (with their markup) either at purchase time or later. The point is that Apple don't want people adding and removing hardware themselves, they want people getting it from Apple. This, in my mind, represents the conflict being debated here. People are arguing for a more or less open box in which to install off-the-shelf components, yet we have all this evidence of Apple doing (and increasing to do) the exact opposite of that. Hence my conclusion - that the only way that Apple can deliver the modularity, and preserve the integrity of their business model and product principles, is with proprietary modules.

I disagree that the history doesn't matter. In my view, the fact that Apple stopped selling Macs with PCI slots six years ago is relevant. Whatever Apple does from here on out with the Mac Pro, I think they are going to want to frame it as progress, and releasing another Mac with PCI slots is hard to frame as technology progress (and hard to reconcile with the other constant messaging about elimination of legacy).

Likewise, my point about the pro workflow analysis is that it suggests that Apple isn't going to ship an open box that people can plug commodity off-the-shelf hardware into - because if they were going to do that then they didn't need to do that analysis.
 
Again, I'd argue that the fact that Apple has held specific events where they have talked about the Mac Pro (and Apple very rarely do such a thing) as evidence to the contrary.
At this point I believe it's more likely than not they will follow through with a new Mac Pro. But, given the history of the Mac Pro, you can't blame someone for being skeptical. After all it was the executives who said the 6,1 Mac Pro was going to be the Mac Pro for the next 10 years (or maybe they were being literal when they said what was announced that day was really going to be the Mac Pro for the next 10 years)
 
Again, I'd argue that the fact that Apple has held specific events where they have talked about the Mac Pro (and Apple very rarely do such a thing) as evidence to the contrary.


Which events, what official announcements ?
There have been none .
Not a single one since the dawn of the trashcan re. the MP .

That round-table gig in 2017, the alleged 'pro work group' blogger gathering, were nothing but non-committal marketing hogwash .
Based on those, Apple could build a toaster with a travel power adapter and call it an MP .

The only recent statement by Apple about workstations was the iMP release, and I for one am not amused .
 
At this point I believe it's more likely than not they will follow through with a new Mac Pro. But, given the history of the Mac Pro, you can't blame someone for being skeptical. After all it was the executives who said the 6,1 Mac Pro was going to be the Mac Pro for the next 10 years (or maybe they were being literal when they said what was announced that day was really going to be the Mac Pro for the next 10 years)
Totally agree, I’ve never suggested that we shouldn’t be skeptical.
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Which events, what official announcements ?
There have been none .
Not a single one since the dawn of the trashcan re. the MP .

That round-table gig in 2017, the alleged 'pro work group' blogger gathering, were nothing but non-committal marketing hogwash .
Based on those, Apple could build a toaster with a travel power adapter and call it an MP .

The only recent statement by Apple about workstations was the iMP release, and I for one am not amused .
There have been two events (although you can call then whatever you like), both official. One in 2017 and one in 2018, where Apple specifically said they are working on a new Mac Pro, and that it will be released in 2019. That’s not non-committal - that is clear commitment that the product is coming and when.

If those events don’t meet your expectations in terms of what was discussed or committed to in terms of what that product will be, well, that’s a different issue entirely.

Not sure anyone is trying to amuse you.
 
If those events don’t meet your expectations in terms of what was discussed or committed to in terms of what that product will be, well, that’s a different issue entirely.

Those events are literally a textbook example of vapourware - promises of future products, with no commitment for delivery, for the sole purpose of dissuading customers from investing in competitor's product ecosystem.

Apple isn't talking about its plans because it has a new more open direction aimed at providing certainty and stability to its customers, it's talking because it has nothing else to offer within the current 18-24 month purchase / commit horizon.
[doublepost=1534344068][/doublepost]To follow that further, practicing product creation like performance art - developing it in secret, and then the big performance and surprise for launch, is a privilege that is earned. It is earned through releasing fully-baked products that are ready to do what they're supposed to do on the day they're released, and more importantly, by following up on those products, keeping them developed and improved. It is earned through not shipping technological dead ends.

Apple has no right to expect customers to trust it in the Cook era - the only products his Apple has released - the iPad Pro, an "about time" product whose pencil support should have been there from the start, Apple watch, a half-baked meh fashion product that's taken until version 3 to really fulfil its launch promise, a "smart" speaker that launched with a brain injury, charging mats that are still in vapourland, Facetime delays etc. For all his talk about collaboration, Tim's Apple is about talking before shipping, and can't execute a product without screwing something up in public.

So the Mac Pro, what Apple, and their customers mutually deserve, is a complete disclosure of the product - for it to be developed entirely in the open, with every stage documented, blogged about, feedbacked etc, regardless of what that gives away to their competitors.

When Apple can deliver a product their customers direct, when they're literally forced to build the faster horse their customers want for their existing buggy, barn, saddle and grass infrastructure, rather than an ego statement for themselves, then they earn the privilege of some secrecy, and the opportunity to perform a reveal.
 
Those events are literally a textbook example of vapourware - promises of future products, with no commitment for delivery, for the sole purpose of dissuading customers from investing in competitor's product ecosystem.

Apple isn't talking about its plans because it has a new more open direction aimed at providing certainty and stability to its customers, it's talking because it has nothing else to offer within the current 18-24 month purchase / commit horizon.
[doublepost=1534344068][/doublepost]To follow that further, practicing product creation like performance art - developing it in secret, and then the big performance and surprise for launch, is a privilege that is earned. It is earned through releasing fully-baked products that are ready to do what they're supposed to do on the day they're released, and more importantly, by following up on those products, keeping them developed and improved. It is earned through not shipping technological dead ends.

Apple has no right to expect customers to trust it in the Cook era - the only products his Apple has released - the iPad Pro, an "about time" product whose pencil support should have been there from the start, Apple watch, a half-baked meh fashion product that's taken until version 3 to really fulfil its launch promise, a "smart" speaker that launched with a brain injury, charging mats that are still in vapourland, Facetime delays etc. For all his talk about collaboration, Tim's Apple is about talking before shipping, and can't execute a product without screwing something up in public.

So the Mac Pro, what Apple, and their customers mutually deserve, is a complete disclosure of the product - for it to be developed entirely in the open, with every stage documented, blogged about, feedbacked etc, regardless of what that gives away to their competitors.

When Apple can deliver a product their customers direct, when they're literally forced to build the faster horse their customers want for their existing buggy, barn, saddle and grass infrastructure, rather than an ego statement for themselves, then they earn the privilege of some secrecy, and the opportunity to perform a reveal.
I wasn’t arguing the merits or otherwise of those events, or Apple’s motives for them; just that those events happened and are therefore evidence that Apple is apparently serious about releasing a new Mac Pro (in whatever form).

In your comments here you are simultaneously criticizing Apple for “talking before shipping”, whilst also demanding “complete disclosure of the product” - a product that won’t ship until next year. You can’t have it both ways.

It’s also kind of academic to demand that Apple do something in a way that is an anathema to how they operate. We all know it’s not going to happen, regardless of what people here believe they deserve.
 
I wasn’t arguing the merits or otherwise of those events, or Apple’s motives for them; just that those events happened and are therefore evidence that Apple is apparently serious about releasing a new Mac Pro (in whatever form).

They’re serious about shipping iMac Pros, which was a product from the Bad Path, started by the nMP, debuted with their “top of the range” workstation GPU, that’s equivalent to a laptop GPU in Windows world, and by all reports, was intended to be THE pro Mac. They’re worried people are putting off buying iMac Pros, leading to discounts and inventory, to wait for the Mac Pro, or moving to Windows.

In your comments here you are simultaneously criticizing Apple for “talking before shipping”, whilst also demanding “complete disclosure of the product” - a product that won’t ship until next year. You can’t have it both ways.

Talking up, ie PR fluffing, a product designed and developed in secret before it’s actually ready, is not the same as going beyond Kickstarter level open disclosure development.

It’s also kind of academic to demand that Apple do something in a way that is an anathema to how they operate. We all know it’s not going to happen, regardless of what people here believe they deserve.

“How they operate” has been failing with pretty significant regularity. It’s just one manifestation of the Black Swan fragility of Apple. When what they’re doing fails, their product culture doesn’t have redundancy, and nimbleness as a core value. Their philosophy is perfect for now, and if now fails to be what they expected, or worse yet, if next month fails to be where they expected now to be, they have no recourse but to put secondrate products into the market until the planned development cycle, pre-Black Swan, has concluded.

Let’s look at the 2017MBP - the unibody design precludes a separate bottom, top and middle section to the main body. For whatever advantages this provides, it means that when Ram requirements grew faster than Apple predicted, they had no way to do a nimble redesign with a thicker centre section, to accomodate larger ram, bigger batteries etc. The Black Swan of workload increases invalidated their design philosophy, and they lost a whole generation of actual Pro needing laptop sales, damaging their reputation in the process, and delaying an entire upgrade cycle.
 
So the Mac Pro, what Apple, and their customers mutually deserve, is a complete disclosure of the product - for it to be developed entirely in the open, with every stage documented, blogged about, feedbacked etc, regardless of what that gives away to their competitors.
Apple needs to loosen up on secrecy when it comes to the Mac Pro. While understandable for the iDevices I'm not sure it's all that helpful to their Mac products. I'm not saying they have to publish every detail but some high level highlights would be welcome.
 
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