MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[filmak]

Guys, we got it all wrong. We thought Apple abandoned Mac Pro users...instead it was under our noses... here is the modular Mac Pro!

View attachment 799941

🙂 Yes, modular...
Anyway,
The heat dissipation will be a consideration with this mini, as always.
If they will be used stacked like this, it will become a giant toast, for sure.

I think that Apple is trying to sell every smaller mac to desperate MP users before launching the mMP.
What can I say? is this a strategy? a band aid?

 

[JesperA]

If they will be used stacked like this, it will become a giant toast, for sure.

I've have been running 4 Mac Mini:s stacked for years and years now without any thermal issues, sure, the fan probably runs slightly faster than if it was air-gapped but yeah, no problem. Adding a fifth like in the picture would probably not push the stack over the edge so yeah

 

[filmak]

I've have been running 4 Mac Mini:s stacked for years and years now without any thermal issues, sure, the fan probably runs slightly faster than if it was air-gapped but yeah, no problem. Adding a fifth like in the picture would probably not push the stack over the edge so yeah

What are you using them for? Are they idle most of the time?

Just one and is overheating too easily, two of them and they are getting really hot. Of course with a lot of fan noise.

 

[deconstruct60]

I've have been running 4 Mac Mini:s stacked for years and years now without any thermal issues, sure, the fan probably runs slightly faster than if it was air-gapped but yeah, no problem. Adding a fifth like in the picture would probably not push the stack over the edge so yeah

But these specific systems haven't been out for years and years. Just because the physical dimensions are the same doesn't mean it is the same cooling system characteristics. The iMac and iMac Pro externally have the same LxWxH dimensions. That doesn't mean their thermal system properties are the same.

Mac Mini 2011 -- power 85W
Mac Mini 2014 -- power 85W
Mac Mini 2018 -- power 150W ( that's is a 76% increase in power. )

Those 35-45W processors in the previous versions probably never busted through their TDP rating. These 6 cores probably will on occasion+workload. The higher the base clock there more likely is the firmware isn't tuned right.

The standard configs probably are in the safe zone. The cooling system capacity is up along with the added power budget ( Apple says the "max sustained power is up" 70% , but 35W -> 65W is a 86% jump. The base power is up 76% ) . The ports are better ( and run hotter). So if TBv3 and 10GbE are removing I/O bottlenecks the computational workload won't necessarily throttle itself with I/O overhead. The 'max compute and I/O ' config as a 24/7 heavy duty compute node . It all looks somewhat like what Apple has done before; designed for the low-middle 'normal' configs and let the maxxed config run almost right up to the line of the cooling capacity with zero slack left (and perhaps a bit over until the clock feedback power management systems kick in).

If Apple is designing this right up to the capacity edge, then air gaps are far more prudent at this point.
[doublepost=1541009998][/doublepost]

The nomenclature for this seems ridiculous - the GPU in the MBP is called "Radeon Vega Pro 20" but it's not actually any relation to the "Vega 20" GPU AMD are allegedly going to release.

Actually it is will only cause problems in the tech spec porn followers and perveyers subset of the market. The "Vega Pro 20" is reasonable as there are 20 CUs in that Vega model. Just like there are 16 , 56 , and 64 in the others. Neither the Vega 56 or 64 was called "Vega 10" .


The retail name for the "Vega 20" microarchtecture implementation is probably going to be "Instinct Vega" or "Vega Instinct" something like that. It isn't going into any laptop or mainstream desktop PC.

So, still no VR competent laptops from Apple.

AR capable though. There are no "toughbook" ruggedized laptops from Apple either.

 

[filmak]

Also they are now a lot more expensive, to get a good configuration - not the 128 gb ssd one.

The case of the mini is good for an about ~500 value computer, but as now the price is really higher, it has to offer a lot more.
Add to this the single small fan and the unavoidable inadequate cooling, the way the components are stacked up plus the over 3.000 price point with an intel GPU and it seems, to me at least, a not so attractive offer for a direct MP replacement.

 

[OS6-OSX]

Apple Apple Apple!
You have already removed computer from your title. Complete the process and remove computers from your company!
License the OS to HP, Dell and others. Your over priced and under performing computers won't be missed.
Get out of the "Pro" area! Apple, in the "Pro" area you are like:
1. A "pro" basketball player who always talks about slam dunking but can't touch the net!
2. A "pro" tennis player playing in the 21st century with a wooden racquet!
3. A "pro"soccer player wearing #10 but never heard of Pele!
I won't list all the failed attempts at "Pro" apps! When the "Pro" department fails at the mMP just look outside. Your bags are already packed!

 

[Pressure]

Apple Apple Apple!
You have already removed computer from your title. Complete the process and remove computers from your company!
License the OS to HP, Dell and others. Your over priced and under performing computers won't be missed.
Get out of the "Pro" area! Apple, in the "Pro" area you are like:
1. A "pro" basketball player who always talks about slam dunking but can't touch the net!
2. A "pro" tennis player playing in the 21st century with a wooden racquet!
3. A "pro"soccer player wearing #10 but never heard of Pele!
I won't list all the failed attempts at "Pro" apps! When the "Pro" department fails at the mMP just look outside. Your bags are already packed!
View attachment 799967

They already tried that in the 1990s. That almost bankrupted them. Of course it is a different company now.

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

I'm so pleased that they've released a new Mac Mini, particularly one that is getting closer to the kind of power I'd be after. I'm still going to have to hold out longer for a new Mac Pro though as it looks like a machine that would be relatively similar in performance to my 9 year old 12 3.33GHz Mac Pro with 12GB RAM 2x512GB SSD and 970 GTX would cost about £3200 (6 core i7 + 1TB SSD + 12GB RAM + Blackmagic eGPU Pro). 😀 Maybe next year, when my existing computer is 10 years old!!

 

[Lammers]

The new Mac Mini is yet another hole in this 'theory'. The Mac Mini went from soldered RAM back to so-DIMMs. If no upgrades was absolute rigid dogma how did that happen? Maybe because it isn't rigid dogma.

It is still going to be hard to upgrade ( thee marketing tech specs page says that memory is 'configurable' ) but the Mini has had disassembly hurdles before. And yes this is a 'ballon squeeze' move. The SSD is now soldered along with T2. ( they kept the exact same case dimensions so really couldn't solder both and keep the same volume. ). This new Mini has design trade-offs. The next Mac Pro will probably have design trade-offs too. Hopefully Apple is iterating from the MP 2009 dimensions and not rigidly sticking to the 2013 ones. If they stick to literal desktop and tighter coupling to MP 2013 dimension the trade-offs will break in a relatively predictable way. (i.e., not starting with "upgrade" end points but with a volume constraint they give themselves. )

However, just as they came back to so-DIMMs they could just as easily come back to some limited number of open, empty PCI-e slots if the allotted volume can afford that.

My ‘theory’ (I like how you put that in quotes to undermine it, nice!) was simply that there appears to be a clear trend for Apple to systematically remove the ability for users to self-upgrade their devices. In my view, that’s less of a theory at this point and more of a demonstrable fact. You can see that progression across the Mac range. I don’t recall saying that it’s “rigid dogma”, so I don’t know where you got that from, just that it’s a trend we can observe in Apple’s behaviour that may be useful as a predictor of the future.

It’s definitely interesting that the new Mac mini includes SO-DIMMS. But my understanding is that it’s still not user-upgradeable; opening the case voids the warranty, and memory upgrades can only be done by an Apple Authorised Service Provider. So in my view, rather than being “yet another hole in this ‘theory’”, it’s actually pretty consistent with the ‘theory’.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree about these things being “design trade-offs”. It would be an incredible coincidence for Apple to be forced to make the same design trade-off time after time on model after model that results in them having to sacrifice elements of upgradeability. The far more likely case, in my view, is that it’s a deliberate strategy.

 

[-hh]

Fair point in theory, problem is the price point. At $600 or $700 for the base config of 128GB, I'd be with you, but when getting it up to 256, means a $1000 computer... I'd expect a little more there.

Also, I have to think really being able to get by with a 128GB boot drive is a relative rarity. I have 512 GB boot-only drive on a pretty new server and all things considered its got 80+ GB used, which would leave just 40-something GB free. And its hardly got everything on it I really need it to yet. Of course use cases vary, but I have to imagine most people want to be able to actually store working files on the computer, and if so, you're chewing through 10s of GBs pretty fast these days.

Well stated. I had to move my cMP up from a 256 to a 512 because the core Apps and minimized working files just became too much of a hassle.

To that end, I looked at a "parity" configured mini (i7/512GB/32GB) and found that it would cost $2K to functionally just do a modernization replacement of my current cMP's basic capability.

Granted benchmarks will probably note that the new i7 would outperform my old Xeon and a few other things, but in overall balance, I don't think that it would really be a huge step up for my workflow needs...this would mostly represent a "Repair through Replacement". To really make it arguably better, I'd probably have to bump to 64GB RAM and the 10GB Ethernet for futureproofing ... at now a $2.8K price tag ...

About the only thing that intrigues me about the mini is that AppleInsider's "hands on" review made a comment about how there was a stack of minis that allegedly was doing some cluster computing thing. Any idea where there's more (and useful) information on just what this is?

 

[wallysb01]

Well stated. I had to move my cMP up from a 256 to a 512 because the core Apps and minimized working files just became too much of a hassle.

To that end, I looked at a "parity" configured mini (i7/512GB/32GB) and found that it would cost $2K to functionally just do a modernization replacement of my current cMP's basic capability.

Granted benchmarks will probably note that the new i7 would outperform my old Xeon and a few other things, but in overall balance, I don't think that it would really be a huge step up for my workflow needs...this would mostly represent a "Repair through Replacement". To really make it arguably better, I'd probably have to bump to 64GB RAM and the 10GB Ethernet for futureproofing ... at now a $2.8K price tag ...

About the only thing that intrigues me about the mini is that AppleInsider's "hands on" review made a comment about how there was a stack of minis that allegedly was doing some cluster computing thing. Any idea where there's more (and useful) information on just what this is?

That's a good point about the essentially side-grade coming from older Mac Pros to the top end Mac Minis at around the $2K price point. I can't imagine too many people are thrilled about that unless you really just want modern ports and a smaller footprint. Looking over at the HP Z mini. The i7/32/512 comes around $1700 and change. If you like free Linux distros, $1600. What's interesting is that the more 'base' configurations are pretty much on par with Apple price-spec wise. Its the upgrades that they really improve the value position on. Of course what it all really comes back to is paying for these kind of silly extra-small form factors. The more traditional small workstation, like an HP G4, could be configured with a i7, 4 GB of RAM and a dorky 1TB HDD for around $1100. Buy your 32 GB of RAM for around $200-250, get a 512 M2 for like $200 and you have a hell of a system for ~$1500. That's just never going to happen with Apple though.

 

[startergo]

I've taken a different tactic and suggested that if Apple doesn't want to produce pro hardware, then consider open sourcing the OS and letting other companies produce hardware for it. I suspect that this suggestion will be summarily ignored, but at least I said it.

But Apple sells hardware not software. It means really to become a Microsoft.
"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? "

 

[goMac]

But my understanding is that it’s still not user-upgradeable; opening the case voids the warranty, and memory upgrades can only be done by an Apple Authorised Service Provider.

Nope.

The Mac Mini can be opened by the user and the memory upgraded with no warranty violation.

Same thing as the old one. Rotate the plastic base off and you have access to the insides.

Still no user swappable storage though.

 

[Horselover Fat]

Yeah as I understand it’s something like that. In the name of security, but it also means Apple determines how long you can use your computer for! I can see law suites later if this is what they do.

It‘ll be very interesting how Apple will allow us to upgrade the machines. I don‘t see how any „Pro“ would buy an overpriced machine that you have to bring to an Apple Store if you want to swap the boot drive, say.

 

[mattspace]

Nope.

The Mac Mini can be opened by the user and the memory upgraded with no warranty violation.

All the reportage so far is that Apple support is saying the RAM is not user-servicable, that it's an Authorised service agent only procedure, regardless of whether you *can* open the bottom...

...whether it's actually accessible through the bottom is a different question. you might have to pull the whole thing out of the case to get to the RAM.

 

[apolloa]

It‘ll be very interesting how Apple will allow us to upgrade the machines. I don‘t see how any „Pro“ would buy an overpriced machine that you have to bring to an Apple Store if you want to swap the boot drive, say.

Yes it will be interesting to see how they handle it, but Apple really doesn’t like third party repairs as it loses money. Likewise with self upgrades. Then again the new Mac Pro may not be user upgradable anyway and it’s idea of modular is to use Apple modules?
[doublepost=1541056789][/doublepost]

All the reportage so far is that Apple support is saying the RAM is not user-servicable, that it's an Authorised service agent only procedure, regardless of whether you *can* open the bottom...

...whether it's actually accessible through the bottom is a different question. you might have to pull the whole thing out of the case to get to the RAM.

Ah that’s the photo I needed to see 🙂 if you look it seems the CPU May be underneath the RAM? In which case the heat pipes will go under there, you’ll need to remove that and the fan assembly to get the memory out looking at how tight it is. Unless it’s easy to slide the case off, which knowing Apple I doubt it but you never know.

 

[Lammers]

Nope.

The Mac Mini can be opened by the user and the memory upgraded with no warranty violation.

Same thing as the old one. Rotate the plastic base off and you have access to the insides.

Still no user swappable storage though.

Okay, and you have evidence of this? Over in the Mac mini forum people have been asking Apple this question (multiple times) and Apple are telling them that it is NOT user upgradeable and will void the warranty if attempted, and posts of product documentation explicitly say that memory upgrades can only be done by an Apple Authorised Service Provider.

 

[JesterJJZ]

Ok, so next possible reveal would be the FCP X Creative Summit. Nov 16-18.

Can’t wait to get amped up for more disappointment.

http://www.fcpxcreativesummit.com/

 

[Horselover Fat]

Yes it will be interesting to see how they handle it, but Apple really doesn’t like third party repairs as it loses money. Likewise with self upgrades. Then again the new Mac Pro may not be user upgradable anyway and it’s idea of modular is to use Apple modules?

This situation really is a dichotomy that couldn't be more evident. The easy user-upgradeability with 3rd party components that the Pros want and Apple's hardware history after 2012 really exclude each other. And their recent history includes iMac Pro, MacBook Pro and Mac mini (supposedly targeting Pros as well). In addition, both, T2 and the transition to their own ARM CPUs, will almost certainly kill the Hackintosh. Where is the silver lining?

 

[Chancha]

Ok, so next possible reveal would be the FCP X Creative Summit. Nov 16-18.

Can’t wait to get amped up for more disappointment.

http://www.fcpxcreativesummit.com/

Wasn't the first iMac Pro public demo done during this conference last year? This time we know at least the MBP15" with VEGA20 option is happening in November as well.

 

[Lammers]

Yes it will be interesting to see how they handle it, but Apple really doesn’t like third party repairs as it loses money. Likewise with self upgrades. Then again the new Mac Pro may not be user upgradable anyway and it’s idea of modular is to use Apple modules?

This is my guess. We have all this evidence of Apple systematically removing the ability for users to self-upgrade across the Mac range over time (a model which other manufacturers have subsequently followed), and with any upgrade capability that Apple chooses to provide (iMac Pro, new Mac mini) needing to be done by an Apple Authorised Service Provider. In my opinion that tells us something about the principles by which Apple designs its products and runs its business that can inform us about how they may be approaching the design of the new Mac Pro. At the very least, I think it forces us to question the likelihood of Apple providing the sort of open box that allows adhoc installation of commodity hardware that people here would like, when it would appear to conflict so fundamentally with their apparent principles.

But I recognise others disagree with that view.

(Off the top of my head I think the iMac 27 may be the last remaining Mac, aside from the trashcan Mac Pro, that allows some element of user upgradeability. But the expectation there is that that is also removed with the next update, likely part of transitioning the internal cooling to that of the iMac Pro.)

 

[Boil]

I think we may have had a clue revealed as to the form factor of the new modular Mac Pro...

Obviously, a larger-than-life scale model, but there it is, the new modular Mac Pro...!

 

[Pressure]

Ah yes, the Cube or the spiritual successor to the NeXT Cube, just in space grey.

They heard the complaints about the nMP being too small and didn't want to force themselves into a thermal corner again.

So now they go big or go home.

 

[ETN3]

In addition to the new iMac Pro, Apple is working on a completely redesigned, next-generation Mac Pro architected for pro customers who need the highest performance, high-throughput system in a modular, upgradeable design, as well as a new high-end pro display.

From the press release of iMac Pro: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/12/imac-pro-the-most-powerful-mac-ever-available-today/

With the special mention of SO-DIMMs of the Mac mini and the mention of upgradable design (whatever that is) in the mentioning of the new Mac Pro, it seems like they have listened to some of the critics from the pro crowd....and that makes me optimistic.

 

[filmak]

With the special mention of SO-DIMMs of the Mac mini and the mention of upgradable design (whatever that is) in the mentioning of the new Mac Pro, it seems like they have listened to some of the critics from the pro crowd....and that makes me optimistic.

Sooner or later Apple will introduce new iMacs, these will be an indication, I think, for what is going to happen.
I hope that they won't take the iMac Pro route and there will be a way to upgrade the RAM easily, at least.
If not, you know... business as usual.