Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I wouldn't be surprised if they are patting themselves on the back at how bloodless their airpower 'Pull Out' tactic was. And are contemplating what the damage would be if they utilized it again on the VWMP.

Maybe we'll get NotJustAnotherVegaEGPU™ instead. And a micro aggressive nudge toward those $5k minis.

And a series of lawsuits against Samsung for copying their 'Pull Out' tactic with their own 'Foldy Fold Fold'.


/s

The new-new Mac Pro exists and it will be released. They've done a pretty good job containing leaks, but it's out there, and there have been whispers about it.

It sounds like they are still waffling about if to announce at WWDC or wait until later.

As mentioned elsewhere, the display sounds like it will be at WWDC.
 
The new-new Mac Pro exists and it will be released. They've done a pretty good job containing leaks, but it's out there, and there have been whispers about it.

It sounds like they are still waffling about if to announce at WWDC or wait until later.

As mentioned elsewhere, the display sounds like it will be at WWDC.
What whispers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aldaris
What whispers.

I don't want to get to specific to protect people, but it sounds like it is not a simple tower with slots.

I don't know what that means about third party GPUs or PCIe cards. I would bet no Nvidia, but that's my personal opinion.
 
I don't want to get to specific to protect people, but it sounds like it is not a simple tower with slots.

I don't know what that means about third party GPUs or PCIe cards. I would bet no Nvidia, but that's my personal opinion.
I’m not asking for names but I haven’t seen jack. If this is some more dark net stuff go ahead and post a summary. There has been more about AirPower going into mass production than the Mac Pro at this point.
 
I’m not asking for names but I haven’t seen jack. If this is some more dark net stuff go ahead and post a summary. There has been more about AirPower going into mass production than the Mac Pro at this point.

You haven't seen much because they've locked it down pretty well. Which is also why I should leave it at what I said.

There's a bunch of stuff I could infer from the generalities I've heard. But I don't want people debating each other or me over theoreticals. What I will say is it sounds closer to the 2013 design than the 2010, but with some level of non-standard modularity.

The number of YouTube videos out there that have suddenly appeared about not making the Mac Pro too complicated make me suspect others are hearing the same whispers.
 
You haven't seen much because they've locked it down pretty well. Which is also why I should leave it at what I said.

There's a bunch of stuff I could infer from the generalities I've heard. But I don't want people debating each other or me over theoreticals. What I will say is it sounds closer to the 2013 design than the 2010, but with some level of non-standard modularity.

The number of YouTube videos out there that have suddenly appeared about not making the Mac Pro too complicated make me suspect others are hearing the same whispers.

What the hell is so complicated about building a damn good tower computer ?

It's not rocket science.

And bro if you're gonna come in here and infer stuff with "whispers" be prepared to talk about it.
 
They probably are not waiting on 10nm Xeons. Doom and gloom folks are trying to peg those for 2021. If Intel has shot themselves in the head that bad then yeah AMD would be a better option ( if only to get out more regular, substantive updates. )

Intel sliding until 3Q with 14nm logjam points to the Xeon W update perhaps sliding further out also. ( If Computek is mostly slideware rather than hardware then it probably is sliding. ).

And perhaps some price cuts coming on Xeon W also. ( and perhaps some more 3700 series models, which Apple still isn't likely to use. )
" ... At STH, we have learned that Intel is going to be selling U-series Intel Xeon Gold CPUs for the single socket only market to address competition from AMD EPYC. ..."
https://www.servethehome.com/intel-xeon-follows-amd-epyc-lead-offering-discounted-1p-only-skus/
[doublepost=1556660305][/doublepost]

If they have been burnt too bad by the AirPower thing they might wait until they were ready to roll. I wouldn't be expecting Apple to put a large gap between talking about a product before they have seriously ironed out the manufacturing/engineering issues at this point.

Skipping April means they obvious tossed the "we want to more clearly communicate in a timely manner" meme back out the window again.
I mean they already communicated it was a 2019 product. I’m not sure what else there is to say besides showing off the thing.
 
I mean they already communicated it was a 2019 product. I’m not sure what else there is to say besides showing off the thing.
The three amigos could say that "due to the fantastic sales of the Imac Pro, we've decided not to bring a modular Mac Pro to market".

Seriously. Apple isn't about reaching out to an extra 10% market if the Imac Pro satisfies 90% of their higher end customers.

Be real, the "vwMP" may never ship. And if it ships without support for at least two off-the-shelf dual-width 300 watt Nvidia GPUs - Apple shouldn't even bother.
 
You haven't seen much because they've locked it down pretty well. Which is also why I should leave it at what I said.

There's a bunch of stuff I could infer from the generalities I've heard. But I don't want people debating each other or me over theoreticals. What I will say is it sounds closer to the 2013 design than the 2010, but with some level of non-standard modularity.

The number of YouTube videos out there that have suddenly appeared about not making the Mac Pro too complicated make me suspect others are hearing the same whispers.
I guess you could link some videos here... I mean I have linked several-and they all have really been all over the place, some speculating modular boxes. The last one I posted on was ‘snazzy labs’ and he made a compelling argument against the modular boxes. If it’s anything close to the cube 3.0 or trash can/Tim cook 6,1-it’ll be a great WWDC for HP.
 
I mean they already communicated it was a 2019 product. I’m not sure what else there is to say besides showing off the thing.

There were several things to say. I posted more than a coupled pages back but in brief.

1. That it actually still is a 2019 product. If this was a Q4 target and it slid, then they should talk. If knock off course a quarter (e.g., Q2 slide into Q3 ). Part of the 2018 disclosure was about giving folks info to make long lead time purchase orders decisions. ( If it slid to 2020 then don't need 2019 budget for it. )

2. last year they also mentioned that things were pretty much on schedule. It if is still pretty much on schedule then that has a n education impact that products don't get whipped up in 3-7 months and shoveled out the door. Basic expectation management.

3. They should be popping the bubbles on some stuff they definitely aren't going to do. ( if not doing 'sealed lego brick' Mac Pro then let to air out of those balloons. ). How much secrecy can they want to build hype about what they are not doing? Too much inaction hands the messaging to their competitors (at beast ) and a freak show ( at worst). Neither one of those is going to mitigate potential user flight.
 
....
...What I will say is it sounds closer to the 2013 design than the 2010, but with some level of non-standard modularity.

There is a wide range in between those two ends. Closer to can be just on 2013 'side' of the 50% point between or only 20% away from the 2013 'side'. Just saying this isn't necessarily indicative that they are mildly revamping the 2013 base design. It probably won't satisfy the 2010 form purists, but it may work for a substantial number of folks.

The number of YouTube videos out there that have suddenly appeared about not making the Mac Pro too complicated make me suspect others are hearing the same whispers.

Not sure that is because of new whispers as much as just driven by time. Many folks seem to be mapping longer time to product to it taking Apple longer to incorporate Area 51 alien technology into the design. "Just superficially change the old case and slap new board in there and ship" would have happened sooner so it "much be too complicated". That is probably just as often born of "agigated impatience' than any new whispers.

Bluntly it doesn't make much sense. If concrete whispers of what new design is then it is basically committed to at that point. Getting on Youtube after finding out that Apple is building a giaffre to tell them to build a hippo is probably way too late for "input". Aspirational "hope" ... ( I hope they aren't ) is more a call from being in the dark of anything concrete.

"It has to be widely complicated" carriers a presumption that Apple has some huge team assigned to the product full time for a very long time. I wouldn't bet on that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: barmann and fuchsdh
Whispers...

One thing that is necessary to be done is to release the 7,1 asap.
The second one is to have a new one after 2-3 years max.

(Of course the "modularity" of these upcoming MPs is still a big question mark, what do they really mean is to be seen, will we have to accept reduced functionality and upgradeability again?)

It will be very disappointing, at least, to have a need for a new one after 4 years and it is still the same 2019 model, again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aldaris
It could be that Apple had to rethink T3 chip in order to get it work on a (more) modular computer. That takes time. If there are PCIe dGPU slots in mMP, T3 could verify their Apple approval in a boot process.

Apple is shutting down openGL and openCL and denying 32bit apps. Could be that Apple is going to do a bigger kernel level change soon, perhaps to enable hUMA or something else. To control the whole memory space can be difficult (and therefore expensive) to maintain with old api’s.
 
Last edited:
Whispers...

One thing that is necessary to be done is to release the 7,1 asap.
The second one is to have a new one after 2-3 years max.
....
It will be very disappointing, at least, to have a need for a new one after 4 years and it is still the same 2019 model, again.

If Apple fails on that second point. It probably won't be 'disappointing' after 4 years ( 2023). More likely the product would be comatose at best or a zombie at worst. If Apple is counting on some "just large enough" , rabid Mac Pro cult to hang around for a 3rd round of Rip van Winkle exercise, then I suspect they are the ones that are going to be disappointed.

Herding an increasingly shrinking pool of users into a longer and longer upgrade cycles is most likely a death spiral. They'll loose users on each iteration. That leads to longer cycles to herd into critical mass. Which leads to smaller pool. rise and repeat. For Apple is a cash cow the first couple iterations but at some point it tends to turn into musical chairs.


As for "asap" (ass soon as possible ), the critical factor is the pragmatic 'possible' given whatever plan and resource assignments Apple came up with 1-2 years ago. If Apple 'bet the farm' on some tech that is sliding out to Q4 .... it is very possible they'll skip saying anything substantive at WWDC also. ( they aren't very likely to come up with a "dog ate our homework' story to be weaved into WWDC.... whatever Cirque de Soleil gyration spin they want to put on it. )
[doublepost=1556817465][/doublepost]
It could be that Apple had to rethink T3 chip in order to get it work on a (more) modular computer.

The Mac Mni is modular ( in same sense that it needs a Display via the context Apple has mentioned Mac Pro modular) and it has a T2. It works.

Apple needs a T-series that works across the whole Mac line up to get reasonable scale for the T-series ( make it lower cost. ).


That takes time.

Time on what? ......

If there are PCIe dGPU slots in mMP, T3 could verify their Apple approval in a boot process.

That isn't what the T-series does. The T2 validates software/firmware ; not hardware. There is about zero usefulness in modifying the T-series silicon to exclude some piece of hardware. That could be all done in firmware. But that is extremely uncharacteristic of Apple's approach to software in the past. if Apple has a specific boot GPU they want that'd would be one thing. But if they do that ( e.g., Thunderbolt integration) it is not particularly likely that it would be a generic PCI-e standard slot spec. There would be a PCI-e component to the socket/slot but Apple could simply add some physical mods so a random card just can't be placed there. Done. No super duper silicon circuit modes needed.


Apple is shutting down openGL and openCL and denying 32bit apps.

Which has zero overlap with T2's primary functions ( firmware validation , SSD controller, SMC controller , Audio/Video mic/'facetime cam' handling).



Could be that Apple is going to do a bigger kernel level change soon,

If there is a new driver API then some kernel changes are probably happening. That might be tangentially related to making the macos/T2 software bridge interface more stable. But that wouldn't necessarily be a silicon thing.

iOS and macOS already share a kernel. So there probably isn't going to be an "iOSisfication" of the kernel. Apple may roll out some cleanup merges to 'unfork" some drift that may have built up over time, but that's probably going to be hyped out of proportion ( although it probably will break some things so 'dead' and comatose drivers will break. ).


perhaps to enable hUMA

That really doesn't make much sense. The primary point of having the T2 being a distinct secure enclave is so that other processes cannot get to the data there. If they made it so there was "uniform memory access" between the T2 and the main memory ..... where is the security??????? if giving memory access you are letting x86 processes in to the data !!! How does that make it more secure? That's regressing.

Apple needs a better behaved and more secure interface between T-series and the rest of the system.... but hUMA isn't really it. At least for the majority of the T-series functionality. ( Apple may need more than 1-2 interfaces into the T-series and to internally compartmentalize it more. )


or something else. To control the whole memory space can be difficult (and therefore expensive) to maintain with old api’s.

Sign this seems to be more of a ARM takes over the Mac Pro heavy computation workload hand waving. Which the T-series isn't a "path " to that.
 
You haven't seen much because they've locked it down pretty well. Which is also why I should leave it at what I said.

Fair enough. Its invariably a challenge to provide such insight when we know that the headhunters are circling, looking to squash the life out of anyone who leaks. Particularly since in this case, once the news breaks, people are going to be unfrozen and able to move forward with their life ... which means a rapid defection of the faithful wait-and-see gang.

But at this point, that tipping point - - one way or the other - - is but only a few quarters (at most) away.


There's a bunch of stuff I could infer from the generalities I've heard. But I don't want people debating each other or me over theoreticals. What I will say is it sounds closer to the 2013 design than the 2010, but with some level of non-standard modularity.

The number of YouTube videos out there that have suddenly appeared about not making the Mac Pro too complicated make me suspect others are hearing the same whispers.

As has been noted before, with each passing week of no announcement, the pragmatic reality is that the odds increase that Apple is choosing to be closed and proprietary, which has no real future except to kill their Pro market.

Personally, I'm not quite sure what direction I might choose to take - - if Apple goes "closed modules", probably the short list would be to buy a stripped Mac mini to be a gateway, and a couple of spare cheesegraters as I wind down my buys of OSX and ramp up the transition to move the main workflows to Windows.
 
Not that there's anything wrong with gaming, but how many of the people crying out for NVidia want it for games? Apple doesn't go out of their way to support gaming on the Mac (never has), and sometimes actively discourages it...

There are certainly 3D applications and the like that prefer NVidia as well, but they have much smaller overall userbases than popular games do. Are all the passionate NVidia supporters on here passionate about it due to 3D (or other non-game apps), or are some frustrated would-be Mac gamers?
 
(snip) Are all the passionate NVidia supporters on here passionate about it due to 3D (or other non-game apps), or are some frustrated would-be Mac gamers?

I'll cast my vote for image processing capabilities enabled by CUDA architecture. nVidia fostered the growth of CUDA on several fronts and the serious coders I work with live in it. Does it HAVE to be that way - of course not, but until something major changes - no CUDA = too slow for high resolution motion content creation on deadlines. If Apple and/or AMD don't put out a competitive alternative soon-ish...
 
Since I don't work in those areas, an honest question - for ML and AI, is that work primarily being done on large (multiple CPUs with high core counts and large memory capacities) servers or on personal (1 CPU, 256GB max RAM) workstations?

If the former, it's kind of academic to Apple since they don't offer products in that market.

If the latter, then on the surface Apple could be hamstringing themselves by not supporting "nVidia Inside", but they could address that by thawing the current Cold War on supporting nVidia products in eGPU configurations.
 
Since I don't work in those areas, an honest question - for ML and AI, is that work primarily being done on large (multiple CPUs with high core counts and large memory capacities) servers or on personal (1 CPU, 256GB max RAM) workstations?

If the former, it's kind of academic to Apple since they don't offer products in that market.
We have both (from 16 GiB workstations with a single 1070/2070 class GPU, to multi-TiB beasts with 72C/144T and quad RTX Quadros).

Developing and prototyping are on workstation class machines (often servers, but 12C/24T and one or two GPUs). For production using 100 TB datasets, the beasts are summoned. With smaller datasets, workstation class machines can do the real work.

We had budgeted eGPUs for the MacBooks (most engineers use MacBook Pros) - but Apple's petty feud with Nvidia has killed that. We've been getting Precision workstations instead.

There are also two distinct operations in deep learning and other AI applications. "Training" involves processing massive datasets, and looking for patterns. "Inference" means looking at a much smaller dataset, and seeing if any of the patterns are there. Training is for beasts, and inference is for everyday endpoints.

https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2016/08/22/difference-deep-learning-training-inference-ai/

For example, training a self-driving car to recognize stop signs and stop lights is very intensive. However, it's much lighter weight for the car to infer that there's a stop sign in its current view.

The animus that Apple shows towards Nvidia makes it a liability to use Apples in our field. We do have MacBooks, but they do nothing other than open ssh terminal windows on our Linux systems. No science happens on our Apples - science happens on our Precision workstations and ProLiant servers.

You do make a good point - I'd never expect Apple to make an AI beast. But, if Apple doesn't have CUDA and decent CPU/RAM/Disk options for the vwMP they'll be locked out of even the development and inferencing sides of AI.
[doublepost=1556837367][/doublepost]
Clearly you are unfamiliar with CoreML, well maybe not, but that's what we got on macOS. It uses Metal, naturally.

https://developer.apple.com/machine-learning/
LOL. Another proprietary Apple API.

And if you want to cry, read https://github.com/tf-coreml/tf-coreml - a tool to convert TensorFlow to Apple's proprietary API. Just what I want to work (and debug) with - using translators to convert millions of lines of open source code to Apple's proprietary API.

Dead-On-Arrival.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Nugget
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.