First Arm Macs will in all likelihood use integrated graphics, but Apple has already stated (see John Gruber's interview) that they won't be based on the A12Z and that they will be more powerful.
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MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)
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The low-end iMac uses integrated graphics, as well. Given the boost of Apple's iGPUs I think we will likely see it appear along with notebooks and minis.
It would make sense to present increasingly powerful AS macs but that would not necessarily match with the present refresh order.
The IMP is well due for a refresh, as well as 27" iMacs. Will they both keep intel CPUs for the next refresh?
It would be quite strange to sell low-end iMacs with AS and high-end with Intel's. It would seem a sort of admission that they can't beat the competition... quite against the swagger with which they bragged in the dubdub keynote.
I am confused
but sort of feel that the message is clear: I will need to divide my budget among a PC and a Mac for this round, hoping macs will eventually become Pro machines as they were when I first bought them (1986), not just for content creators.
Sometimes I feel Apple thinks that society will advance through video montage or just wanna keep out from research, design and manufacturing, leaving it to PCs. Quite sad. Are they really thinking different?
It would make sense to present increasingly powerful AS macs but that would not necessarily match with the present refresh order.
The IMP is well due for a refresh, as well as 27" iMacs. Will they both keep intel CPUs for the next refresh?
It would be quite strange to sell low-end iMacs with AS and high-end with Intel's. It would seem a sort of admission that they can't beat the competition... quite against the swagger with which they bragged in the dubdub keynote.
I am confused
but sort of feel that the message is clear: I will need to divide my budget among a PC and a Mac for this round, hoping macs will eventually become Pro machines as they were when I first bought them (1986), not just for content creators.Sometimes I feel Apple thinks that society will advance through video montage
or just wanna keep out from research, design and manufacturing, leaving it to PCs. Quite sad. Are they really thinking different?The equation constrains are
:
1st, make an 20000$ (mean) investment now for a hardware will felt (not actually, just felt) vintage/obsolete in just 18-24 months, resale value with god luck 4000$
2nd asuming your toolchain is compatioble and benefits from macOS gifts (as no-Cuda, no-OpenCL etc)) what offer other platforms for my workflow:
-Windows: instability, virus, etc, but its the damm Hardware compatibility King, and almost every Mac App has its native windows version with rare exceptions, and I admit Win10 look pretty and polite now, but still irritant at times, ahh CUDA, OpenCL works fine there.
-Ubuntu (not to mention other linux distros): while theoretically has wide hardware compatibility, it is just an theorem waiting for solution, but if you follow th proven-the buy/implement procedure, you get the most stable, virus free operating system, the widest API availability, including CUDA, ROCm, oneAPI, and each and every DataScience/MachineLearning/HPC toolchain its not just native, also has solid support, its weaks are for traditional apps: Office, Media, CAD, while LibreOffice is almost all you need for whatever you need, and freeCAD/OpenSCAD/BLENDER are also solid 3-D , for image/video editing there's nothing even close to 2nd class mainstream... UNLESS you run these apps Virtualized inside a W10.Container or a VM ... (it works for most Autocad/AdobeCC), even you can run a hackintosh virtualized, alll day. I miss to mention as now Ubuntu Desktop is as intuitive and consitent as macOS and applications are easy to install.
Result: SAIL AWAY AS SOON AS YOU CAN
Today I "Build" (plan to order later) a Workstation/Server for compute, to run ubuntu there:
32-core Threadrpper+256GB Ram+ 4 RTX Titan liquid cooled, +4TB PCIe4 SSD: 11Grand, with only exception in memotu (I could consider later an AMD EPYC build for about 5000 extra I could put 64 cores and 2TB ram (even 2p, for 128 cores) to the configuration), and I need not to do big math to predict it will crush every Mac Pro performance benchmark (even among compatible benchemarks), simple no way to go on a Mac Pro for me.
I dont know what Apple strategy is, but not to follow any OpenCompute STD, or being open to foreign compute STD, as CUDA/oneAPI, it will restrict the macOS ecosystem to develop only for the Compute toolchain Apple considers a Mac will profiit them, so get an mac and youll get trapped developing WEB, Media, and iOS/MacOS apps, barely ML would be available (no hope for tensorflow/pytorch).
So I dont want to be a second class IT pro now by Apple design.
Maybe in 2 years I buy an iMac for office/home duties, not for work.
I dont buy the "Trend" that ARMarch will win in raw performace against amd64, maybe against 2018's amd64 cpu or, that CPU from 2-3 years ago.
The RISC efficiency mith, wjile BIG.little works well and seems will be a trend among amd64 (besides Intel theres also an Ryzen BIG.little cpu for mobile on roadmap), but RISC instruction set is a trap, while it dismisses a complex instruction decoder, and rely on Compiler for binary optimization (whichg has worked fine no way to contest it), the truth is to catch amd64 RAW performance either it need to implement higher clock speeds and/or deeper out of order execution pipelines, also to extend instruction set for specif purpose, both ruled out effciciency, if yon can live with this OK but some applications need raw performance by long execution times, test done with Cavium Thunder confirm that theory ARM cant hold performace by long run on heavy compute taks, neither get meaningful powersavings.
I seee you Apple, Ubuntu is waitng around for every pro don't need FCP.X....
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Still waiting for Ryzen Macs and Threadripper iMac Pros. Where is it?
https://amd-osx.com but it doesn't look like a good solution to me. I lost my appetite for those sorts of shenanigans over a decade ago.
I have decided to go hackintosh and wait another year to see how things go. It will allow me to save money now, put some more aside for a good Pro miniLED AS machine and still keep working till then with a fast machine that will cover all Win features for the time being.
After all, the message from Apple was clear. You need Win as well? Get a PC.
Things have changed a lot: building a hackintosh with the right hardware is easy as pie (I studied everything in two days and have already set the USB drive to install Catalina. ) and they support upgrades and all iCloud services.
I know it will never be 100% safe, but the pros of this solution for my case are so many, I am ready to take the risks of a few kernel panics.
After all, the message from Apple was clear. You need Win as well? Get a PC.
Things have changed a lot: building a hackintosh with the right hardware is easy as pie (I studied everything in two days and have already set the USB drive to install Catalina.
) and they support upgrades and all iCloud services.I know it will never be 100% safe, but the pros of this solution for my case are so many, I am ready to take the risks of a few kernel panics.
Same here, but given I'm building a powerful system I'll only run macOS virtualized for few things I still need a Mac.I have decided to go hackintosh and wait another year to see how things go. It will allow me to save money now, put some more aside for a good Pro miniLED AS machine and still keep working till then with a fast machine that will cover all Win features for the time being.
After all, the message from Apple was clear. You need Win as well? Get a PC.
Things have changed a lot: building a hackintosh with the right hardware is easy as pie (I studied everything in two days and have already set the USB drive to install Catalina.
I know it will never be 100% safe, but the pros of this solution for my case are so many, I am ready to take the risks of a few kernel panics.
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Will be on my desk very soon, but macOS will be a second class citizens here.Still waiting for Ryzen Macs and Threadripper iMac Pros. Where is it?
I too am giving it some thought. I'm still playing with options such as just straight going with Linux and Nvidia at this point and giving up with Apple. All in all, Hackintosh or Linux alternatives would both make sure the machine can be re-purposed once the ARM shift becomes too inconvenient for Intel apps. Smart thing for me to do would be just to get a Windows machine, but I just don't want to if I can avoid it. I guess good news is that my life situation makes the whole computer situation a tertiary priority at the moment.
I will likely keep getting MacBook Pros via work, so one option might still be just to get a large display and just not have a personal machine.
Well, Apple's at work. W5500X available as option. 580X to be retired soon as base GPU? Same TFlops but lower core count, GDDR6, capped TB3 and monito support. They would need to drop the 250€/200USD extra. No dual GPU as standard though. Probably the second will be add-on only for now.
Also DIY SSD upgrade kits, 1/2/4/8TB.
Also DIY SSD upgrade kits, 1/2/4/8TB.
Slightly off topic but what do you make of Big Sur? Cool new stuff but the iOS/iPadOS look is killing me. Thiss ia desktop OS for crying out loud.
Starting with the iOS-like wallpapers (which i hate btw), hope in the final version we'll get some nice pics as usual.
The change to ASi is somewhat evident here I guess.
And it's now macOS 11, macOS X will be missed.
I wonder if Apple already has an early ES of the armMP, running some sort of MCM with multiple A16 (or whatever at the time), or not, possibly based on the current Firestorm/Icestorm config? Running macOS 11' Yaicks!!
Starting with the iOS-like wallpapers (which i hate btw), hope in the final version we'll get some nice pics as usual.
The change to ASi is somewhat evident here I guess.
And it's now macOS 11, macOS X will be missed.
I wonder if Apple already has an early ES of the armMP, running some sort of MCM with multiple A16 (or whatever at the time), or not, possibly based on the current Firestorm/Icestorm config? Running macOS 11' Yaicks!!
There's an interview with Linus Torvalds that includes details on the components (including a Noctua 140mm CPU air cooler) that he recently used for an AMD 3970X Threadripper build:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/look-whats-inside-linus-torvalds-latest-linux-development-pc/
https://www.zdnet.com/article/look-whats-inside-linus-torvalds-latest-linux-development-pc/
I'll just leave this here...
www.extremetech.com
Lenovo Unveils First 8-Channel Threadripper Pro Workstation - ExtremeTech
Lenovo has announced the ThinkStation P620, a new Ryzen Threadripper workstation that's also doubling as a debut of a heretofore unannounced AMD chip.
www.extremetech.com
I'll just leave this here...
Lenovo Unveils First 8-Channel Threadripper Pro Workstation - ExtremeTech
Lenovo has announced the ThinkStation P620, a new Ryzen Threadripper workstation that's also doubling as a debut of a heretofore unannounced AMD chip.
Starting at $4,600 for 12 cores.........
At first I loathed the new look of Big Sur, but it's grown on me and I'm sure the design language will evolve over time. The kinda hybrid neuomorphism that Apple's using is uncharted territory after all. It's gonna have some kinks in it at first before it's gorgeous. The heavily rounded corners do suggest rounded corners on their future Mac screens though, like the iPad Pro.
Also, I'd like to point out that Apple's likely looking to the future with adopting iOS design language. The new generation of kids have been brought up in a world of smartphones/tablets. The new design language is likely meant for them, not old fogeys like us.
That said, take my opinions with some heavy salt. I've grown to hate the skeuomorphism of Snow Leopard over time, don't @ me.
I guess we, oldtimers, have to get used to it
I also believe this might have been the first impact, it will grow on us, I hope.
It does make things more fluid between devices.
I also believe this might have been the first impact, it will grow on us, I hope.
It does make things more fluid between devices.
We will get used to it, it's not the first time...
I only hope that there won't be so many bugs as in current Catalina version. A kind of Mojave stability would be very welcome.
I only hope that there won't be so many bugs as in current Catalina version. A kind of Mojave stability would be very welcome.
Great forum here. Not sure if the right spot, but I'm on the fence about waiting for the rumored redesign of the iMac Pro 2021? or purchasing now.
EDIT: Such a newb, just realized this is the Pro forum, not necessarily iMac Pro. Sorry!
I wonder if there are others in a similar spot, where the quarantine has pushed me into a WFH situation, where my prior desktop (iMac 2014, 4Ghz i7 cpu, 16 GB DDR3 RAM, Radeon R9 M295X 4 GB) is chugging along grudgingly, but not as smoothly as I'd like.
I am very enmeshed in the Apple environment via music, docs, browsers, cloud, etc. and of course appreciate the photo/video editing capabilities of the Pro (as well as the cool aesthetic).
That said, the caveat, is that I do a bit of gaming, maybe 10% of my time, but it's a nice little outlet, and I've had to eschew any advanced games because of the graphics limitations of my current machine.
My hesitation with not waiting is missing out on some excellent upgrades in the memory and graphics fields. My concern about waiting for next year is that a) not sure when a new release will come about if at all, and b) the migration to in-house chips is great for Apple, however, I do a touch of gaming/computing in a Windows environment, so would assume I'd lose the bootcamp option sans intel chips.
Any words of advice from the sage community? Thank you!!
EDIT: Such a newb, just realized this is the Pro forum, not necessarily iMac Pro. Sorry!
I wonder if there are others in a similar spot, where the quarantine has pushed me into a WFH situation, where my prior desktop (iMac 2014, 4Ghz i7 cpu, 16 GB DDR3 RAM, Radeon R9 M295X 4 GB) is chugging along grudgingly, but not as smoothly as I'd like.
I am very enmeshed in the Apple environment via music, docs, browsers, cloud, etc. and of course appreciate the photo/video editing capabilities of the Pro (as well as the cool aesthetic).
That said, the caveat, is that I do a bit of gaming, maybe 10% of my time, but it's a nice little outlet, and I've had to eschew any advanced games because of the graphics limitations of my current machine.
My hesitation with not waiting is missing out on some excellent upgrades in the memory and graphics fields. My concern about waiting for next year is that a) not sure when a new release will come about if at all, and b) the migration to in-house chips is great for Apple, however, I do a touch of gaming/computing in a Windows environment, so would assume I'd lose the bootcamp option sans intel chips.
Any words of advice from the sage community? Thank you!!
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You might want to join this discussion already in progress: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...oday-or-wait-to-buy-an-arm-based-mac.2245061/
For me, I just ordered a Mac Pro so that I can sit and watch the Arm transition safely from the sidelines. I think Apple will have some super-exciting Arm laptops in the first part of next year and they will struggle to provide a compelling desktop alternative to Intel until the very last part of their transition to Arm.
Get a PC and a KVM switch.
It won't put you back very much, and you will have the best of both worlds. As an added bonus - you can run OSX in a VM once you move to Apple ARM while you wait on the software (and you WILL be waiting on it). Or you can run OSX as a native operating system - it is easier to install Catalina on a PC than it is on a 5,1 Mac Pro.
A double-edge swortd too... (consider nVidia is inches close to control ARM).
Despite all the propaganda arround ARM and x86 trade-off, (im among other things HW designers, I develop FPGA solutions, among some HPC niche apps, mostly for HFT).
Few facts:
Major ARM advantage over intel/AMD, is almost anyone with money can manufacture (or actually send to bake at TSMC, Samsung etc) an ARM cpu,
Power Efficiency mostly due HI-lo cores design, soon to be offered by amd-x64 too.
"Easy" mani-core development, but a warning: guys testing Cavium Thunder X3 with Julia Lang found it fails to deliver the projected performance, there still bottlenecks, as few offer son SIMD-4 features (x86 stops at SIMD-2).
So its relatively cheap beat or reach amd64 multi-core performance (by twice cores at time).
Disadvantages:
As today ARM IPC is well below amd-64, it has improved a lot, but always seems two years below x86, x86 market was stagnant due Intel internal wrongdoings due actual lack of competition, now theyre in a pity 2nd row and are the ugly dirty kids, considering how big and the availability of both money and resources, I'm pretty confident Intel is in no way dead, just re-building.
About perspectives, there are few trade-off when you seek HIGH IPC: deeper execution pipes or higher clock but often both, so to reach Intel/AMD ARM cpus need to implement bigger-power hungry cores, wich eats its power savings (Actually only savings come from the Instruction decoder suppression, less than 1% total CPU power usage), mostly ARM cpus are efficient due HI-lo architecture, wich is in AMD and Intel timelines. ahh, and there's AVX-512, but actually AMD also removed it from future chips, no need to implement.
I've examined few concepts on x86 follow-on architecture which dismisses as while the old decoder and implement all-new instruction set, but also allow older instruction by direct native emulation, even rare instructions, this promises to beat anything if Intel survives to ARM and RISC-V
On the long term, I Bet my home, truck, wife, kids the six-pack beers in my freezer on RISC-V, but I doubt ARM will rule PC market, RISC-V has the open-source (as std) advantage, given some skills are become commodity, I'm convinced in 20 years everything not a relic will use some RISC-V based solution, specially HSA having FPGA, optane persistent storage etc.
ARM doesn't have a defined IPC. It's an instruction set.
There is no reason Apple couldn't build a different deeper ARM pipeline. Their pipeline is already significantly different than the generic ARM designs.
To Apple, ARM is really just an instruction set. That's it. They can build any chip they want and all it has to do is be ARM instruction compatible. The ARM instruction set doesn't define a pipeline. It doesn't define an IPC. That's why these analysis are really premature. Apple could build a design similar to what AMD and Intel are doing, just with an ARM instruction set on a 5nm process.
RISC-V certainly has a future in specific embedded devices, but their open-source nature will pose significant disadvantage in standard computing devices due to instruction set fragmentation. Unless RISC-V has significant performance advantage against existing x86 and ARM, I doubt it will have a place outside of devices that doesn't require ISA compatibility.
Theoretically, they could do that, actually what they do is to pimp the most recent ARM design, often tweaking the L1, L2 cache, Apple got into a steep position having to maintain, update, DEBUG and develop not 1, but abou a dozen different CPUs, as they cant put the same CPU on an iPhone as on a Mac or iPad, also different Mac require different CPUs and at least at the beginning will be monolithic CPUs not MCM solutions as Ryzen, meaning more cost and lower yields.
Opendource doesnt means fragmentationm this argument falls on its own.
I follow RISC-V, and while started slow, its gaining huge attraction, as with CPUs architecture there's almost nothing unknown, what an architecture can do at 7nm will do morlees the same whatever architecture at the same node, ARM and RISC-V are almost identical, as theis performance (at low speed cores, as there's no high performance RISC-V cpus out yet) same tricks needed by x86, arm to increase IPC, reduce power, can be implemented with RISC, the point here is the R&D cost, develop an CPU is not the same now as 20 yr ago, qualified engineers are much easier to find and hire, and while we respect Gurus as Jim Keller, they are not indispensable, neither the only capable.
I dont say this year, and likely not the next 5yr but as long by end the decade RISC-V will be what is now amd Zen, and likely soon therafter will be the dominant architecure (and maybe Apple switches again)...
RISC-V has a loooooooooog way to go beyond IoT. All the talk about RISC-V future only came from their own mouth, without showing any relevant numbers.
Unless it gains a significant player with huge money chest and willing to invest it in a long term, it won't have a place beyond embedded applications that doesn't require ISA compatibility.