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uptownnyc

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 28, 2011
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Since it's obvious that we've seen the last of product announcements from Apple for the 2020 product year, it seems the speculation and rumors regarding a potential 2020 refresh of the Apple TV hardware was just that -- speculation and rumors. I'd guess either they'd planned to have a 2020 spec-bumped refresh, but changed plans due to COVID, or never had planned to release anything this year and are continuing to iterate on whatever may drop in 2020. It's clear that part of their TV strategy revolves less around getting their hardware into people houses, and more around getting their AppleTV+ App onto people devices, but that don't fully solve the problem for those who want to take advantage of the entire Apple ecosystem including Apple Arcade, Photos, and HomeKit using the AppleTV as your home hub.

So 2021 seems likely for a refresh given past rumors that they continue to work on the hardware, and the fact that the current hardware hasn't been refreshed since 2017.

What must Apple deliver in 2021 to sell you on the concept of using Apple TV hardware as the media hub for your television? Or have you already moved on to another solution?
 

Juicy Box

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2014
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It's clear that part of their TV strategy revolves less around getting their hardware into people houses, and more around getting their AppleTV+ App onto people devices
A lot of people on the forum would disagree with you on that point, but not mean, I totally agree.

I would go as far to say that Apple doesn't really care about the Apple TV based on their actions, amount of advertisement, lack on interest, time allotted for the ATV at events, stagnant OS development, and based off of their own website. If you click on the "TV" icon you have to scroll half way down the page for them to mention the Apple TV 4K.


What must Apple deliver in 2021 to sell you on the concept of using Apple TV hardware as the media hub for your television?
What do you think the current Apple TV 4K HW is missing?

While I would like to see more interest in the Apple TV from Apple, I think the current HW is fine. There are minor things that could be updated, like the new HDMI standard for example, but I think any changes should be on the SW side of things, not HW.

The issue with the ATV4K is that Apple built it to be much more than a streaming box, but didn't do anything to facilitate to be more than a streaming box. If anything, they hindered it with the launch of tvOS and the stupid Siri Remote requirement and tiny app static storage limitation for developers. They have since backpedaled on those clearly idiotic decisions, but I think the damage was done, killing any momentum the tvOS and the ATV had to be more than just a streaming box.

Now, the Apple TV 4K is just an overpriced (compared to the competition) and overpowered (for what is currently does, streaming) streaming device, that a device a fraction of the price can basically do most of what the ATV4K does, maybe just not as fast. Also, people buying new TVs most likely will have Smart TVs, which depending on what size TV you get, could could get a Smart TV for the price of an ATV4K.

I am not saying I would turn down new HW, but the ATV4K is still the most powerful streaming box on the market. I guess it could be cheaper.


Or have you already moved on to another solution?
I am curious what you think is missing from the current ATV4K model, unless you just mean something cheaper, I totally get that.
 

JBaby

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2015
847
651
Really it’s likely?!? They’ve literally been saying that since at least 2019. I know because I bought my 4K in September 2019. Had I listened to all the people who think they know so damn much I still wouldn’t have a 4K now. OP, this isn’t really aimed at you personally. I’m just sick of all of the new tv that’s gonna materialize so quickly!
 
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x-evil-x

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
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all I want is passthrough audio and id be happy. I use my appletv much more than my shield. Its not glitchy like the shield. The interface is razor sharp. The shield is blurry to me. Its night and day difference all over the interface and apps that its just not a polished streaming box interface wise like apple has.
I do really want passthrough audio as I want to play my own Atmos content. Also fixing the refresh rate issue would be good even though I don't see any motion issues with it as I do with the shield with things.
They added YouTube 4k already so there's that.
Would be nice competing with the shield and having 1-2 usb's come back to next gen and be able to use it as Plex server. That would be huge.
 
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badsimian

macrumors 6502
Aug 23, 2015
374
200
all I want is passthrough audio and id be happy. I use my appletv much more than my shield. Its not glitchy like the shield. The interface is razor sharp. The shield is blurry to me. Its night and day difference all over the interface and apps that its just not a polished streaming box interface wise like apple has.
I do really want passthrough audio as I want to play my own Atmos content. Also fixing the refresh rate issue would be good even though I don't see any motion issues with it as I do with the shield with things.
They added YouTube 4k already so there's that.
Would be nice competing with the shield and having 1-2 usb's come back to next gen and be able to use it as Plex server. That would be huge.

What is the refresh rate issue? I was hoping to get an Apple TV because the Amazon Fire 4k Stick I just bought is horrendous for judder etc due to poor refresh rate handling.
 

DmPsTrFyR

macrumors member
Sep 20, 2019
42
86
Sacramento, CA
Really it’s likely?!? They’ve literally been saying that since at least 2019. I know because I bought my 4K in September 2019. Had I listened to all the people who think they know so damn much I still wouldn’t have a 4K now. OP, this isn’t really aimed at you personally. I’m just sick of all of the new tv that’s gonna materialize so quickly!
I am in the market for a tv, saw this post and started to hesitate until I saw your reply. Absolutely true.
 
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uptownnyc

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 28, 2011
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Really it’s likely?!? They’ve literally been saying that since at least 2019. I know because I bought my 4K in September 2019. Had I listened to all the people who think they know so damn much I still wouldn’t have a 4K now. OP, this isn’t really aimed at you personally. I’m just sick of all of the new tv that’s gonna materialize so quickly!

I expect it'll be part of their Q1 launch cycle - probably a March refresh. Whether it's re-imagined in any way, apart from updating the chip inside, is beyond me -- but there's been enough negative commentary about the remote that it wouldn't surprise me if that receives an update. Minimally, I'd expect the remote to get wireless charging, but I'm hopeful they'll make some design changes that reduce the false inputs that occur when picking it up. Yes - a silicon case solves this for most people, but seems like that shouldn't be a necessary concession.
 

JBaby

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2015
847
651
I expect it'll be part of their Q1 launch cycle - probably a March refresh. Whether it's re-imagined in any way, apart from updating the chip inside, is beyond me -- but there's been enough negative commentary about the remote that it wouldn't surprise me if that receives an update. Minimally, I'd expect the remote to get wireless charging, but I'm hopeful they'll make some design changes that reduce the false inputs that occur when picking it up. Yes - a silicon case solves this for most people, but seems like that shouldn't be a necessary concession.

I don’t expect it at all for March. Historically only two generations weren’t introduced in September. The 1st Gen was introduced in January 2007 and 3rd Gen was introduced in March 2012.
 

pmiles

macrumors 6502a
Dec 12, 2013
809
676
If you already own an Apple TV you're already using it as your media hub.

Honestly I don't see it as a hub as much as a container for Apps that my TV can't store or run natively. It's pretty much how everyone uses it. Reminds me of the old cable tuner boxes back in the day that were there solely to allow you to receive extra channels until the TVs came with built in tuners... thereby negating the need for them... until they added voice remote and DVR to them and they resurfaced once again.

You really don't need a third party device to do this stuff, TVs can do it themselves, they just are so poorly implemented by the TV manufacturers that these things even exist. Media centers never really took hold because everything is so easily streamed.
 

JBaby

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2015
847
651
If you already own an Apple TV you're already using it as your media hub.

Honestly I don't see it as a hub as much as a container for Apps that my TV can't store or run natively. It's pretty much how everyone uses it. Reminds me of the old cable tuner boxes back in the day that were there solely to allow you to receive extra channels until the TVs came with built in tuners... thereby negating the need for them... until they added voice remote and DVR to them and they resurfaced once again.

You really don't need a third party device to do this stuff, TVs can do it themselves, they just are so poorly implemented by the TV manufacturers that these things even exist. Media centers never really took hold because everything is so easily streamed.

Meh. Smart TVs suck. Because they become dumb very quickly. And many are sluggish. Plus, you can’t see the Extras if you buy any movies.
 
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Whathappened

Suspended
Mar 15, 2018
537
648
A lot of people on the forum would disagree with you on that point, but not mean, I totally agree.

I would go as far to say that Apple doesn't really care about the Apple TV based on their actions, amount of advertisement, lack on interest, time allotted for the ATV at events, stagnant OS development, and based off of their own website. If you click on the "TV" icon you have to scroll half way down the page for them to mention the Apple TV 4K.



What do you think the current Apple TV 4K HW is missing?

While I would like to see more interest in the Apple TV from Apple, I think the current HW is fine. There are minor things that could be updated, like the new HDMI standard for example, but I think any changes should be on the SW side of things, not HW.

The issue with the ATV4K is that Apple built it to be much more than a streaming box, but didn't do anything to facilitate to be more than a streaming box. If anything, they hindered it with the launch of tvOS and the stupid Siri Remote requirement and tiny app static storage limitation for developers. They have since backpedaled on those clearly idiotic decisions, but I think the damage was done, killing any momentum the tvOS and the ATV had to be more than just a streaming box.

Now, the Apple TV 4K is just an overpriced (compared to the competition) and overpowered (for what is currently does, streaming) streaming device, that a device a fraction of the price can basically do most of what the ATV4K does, maybe just not as fast. Also, people buying new TVs most likely will have Smart TVs, which depending on what size TV you get, could could get a Smart TV for the price of an ATV4K.

I am not saying I would turn down new HW, but the ATV4K is still the most powerful streaming box on the market. I guess it could be cheaper.



I am curious what you think is missing from the current ATV4K model, unless you just mean something cheaper, I totally get that.
What’s are you talking about, atv is a gaming device and the next version will get even better graphics as expected b gamers.
My guess is they are waiting for something like a new standard to support or for cheaper hardware options.
Unlikely, but would also be nice if they came up with an M1 gaming console/atv.
ATV with stronger hardware would be an instant buy for me.
For watching videos you of course don’t feel the need for a new one. The current one is still great.
 

x-evil-x

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
5,576
3,234
If you already own an Apple TV you're already using it as your media hub.

Honestly I don't see it as a hub as much as a container for Apps that my TV can't store or run natively. It's pretty much how everyone uses it. Reminds me of the old cable tuner boxes back in the day that were there solely to allow you to receive extra channels until the TVs came with built in tuners... thereby negating the need for them... until they added voice remote and DVR to them and they resurfaced once again.

You really don't need a third party device to do this stuff, TVs can do it themselves, they just are so poorly implemented by the TV manufacturers that these things even exist. Media centers never really took hold because everything is so easily streamed.
Arc has issues. Even on my new Sony Oled audio on YouTube when I press play on a video is delayed until it kicks in. not sure why.
I don’t like not having my on screen controls of my receiver. I don’t know what volume I’m at or any info on anything. I have to pull out my phone to look if I want to know that.
apps runs slower on tv’s. Tv hardware doesn’t get updated past when you buy it. set top boxes are still the way to go imo.
i can’t get infuse on my tv’s. Usually the experience isnt as good as a seperate device.
 
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Juicy Box

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Sep 23, 2014
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What’s are you talking about, atv is a gaming device
It is a streaming device, that plays some games.

It could have been a gaming device, but Apple screwed that up with the launch of the ATV4 and tvOS. Overtime, Apple backpedaled on some of the things that hindered serious game development for tvOS, like the Siri Remote requirement and the tiny 200MB static storage limit for apps, but I think the damage was done.

Many of the biggest game titles in the tvOS App Store have been pulled, or simply abandoned, while their iOS counterparts are still getting updates.

It really sucks because I don't play games on my mobile devices, and would like to use my ATV4K to pay games, but so many of my tvOS games just don't work anymore.

I am not just talking about free one either. Minecraft (which I do not play, but got for my children) was $30.



and the next version will get even better graphics as expected b gamers.
This is just a rumor, no one knows for sure. Apple may never release another ATV.

Also, even if Apple does release a gaming-Apple TV, it takes more than just HW to make a gaming device. They will have to somehow bring back the developers that they scared away before.


For watching videos you of course don’t feel the need for a new one. The current one is still great.
The current Apple TV 4K with the A10X is a very capable gaming machine, at least when it comes to the HW.

It isn't the hardware that is holding the Apple TV 4K back from being more than just a streaming device.
 
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Packers1958

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Apr 16, 2017
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A new device that actually supported 24 fps and not just 23.976 fps, a new device that supports HLG HDR, and a new device that fixes elevated blacks with DV HDR. If you have an OLED tv, you will understand about the elevated blacks.
 
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Donar

macrumors 6502
Jul 12, 2008
382
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Germany
The current Apple TV 4K with the A10X is a very capable gaming machine, at least when it comes to the HW.
It isn't the hardware that is holding the Apple TV 4K back from being more than just a streaming device.
Yes, the current :apple:TV 4K is a capable device, and is very good for streaming. The game experience is lacking, i played Oceanhorn 2 on it and the :apple:TV 4K is not powerful enough for this game. You see frame rate drops and things pop up out of nowhere, it is a much better/smoother experience on the 2018 iPad Pro. I am very interested in a new version of the :apple:TV with an A14X or A12X/Z.

It could have been a gaming device, but Apple screwed that up with the launch of the ATV4 and tvOS. Overtime, Apple backpedaled on some of the things that hindered serious game development for tvOS, like the Siri Remote requirement and the tiny 200MB static storage limit for apps, but I think the damage was done.
You are right with the wrong decisions at the beginning (Siri Remote, Storage), :apple: tries to fix this now with game controller support, Apple Arcade to get developers on board (again).
 
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Juicy Box

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i played Oceanhorn 2 on it and the :apple:TV 4K is not powerful enough for this game. You see frame rate drops and things pop up out of nowhere,
Let me start by saying that I have no doubt that you experienced slowdowns playing Oceanhorn 2. I have as well, but not during gameplay. All the slowdowns I have seen was during the cinematic.

That said, I am unsure if this is directly related to the ATV4K HW, or just the lack of optimization for it.

I have also experience slowdowns on my ATV4K on CrossyRoad (not exactly known for pushing HW limits). Not all the time, or even often, but sometimes. Another interesting thing about the slowdowns, I have never experienced these slowdowns on the ATV4 with the much slower A8.

A while back I was doing some testing on the ATV4K, I noticed that when the storage is almost filled with temporary data, I experience more slowdowns. Maybe this is a RAM issue, or maybe there needs to be more optimization for managing and clearing the cache, or maybe both.



The game experience is lacking
I personally think this is more lacking in content than HW capability, but maybe also about expectations (seventh gen console, eighth gen console, etc.).

As for ATV4K HW compared to consoles, the A10X has more than twice the graphical performance of the PS3 and Xbox 360, and about half of the Xbox one and a third of the PS4.

It clearly isn't on par of the current consoles, but much more powerful than the seventh gen consoles.

I would love to see some PS3 and Xbox 360 ports, but that just has not happened. I would love to see more games that are on the level of PS3 and Xbox 360 capabilities, but that just has not happened.

So, back to expectations. If you where expecting PS4 games on the ATV4K, I can totally understand the disappointment in the ATV4K HW. The HW isn't close to capable of what the eighth generation consoles can do.

I was expecting at least the seventh generation console quality games, as the ATV4K HW is capable of much more. So far, there is a lack on quality games in the tvOS App Store.

I just don't think that having a new ATV with newer HW is going to change the ATV from being a streaming box to a gaming box.


You are right with the wrong decisions at the beginning (Siri Remote, Storage)
I didn't mention it, but I would also add that the A8 in the Apple TV 4 was also a death knell for gaming on tvOS. Back in 2014 and early 2015, there was rumors about Apple making a "console killer" with the ATV4. The rumors led to Apple utilizing the A9X or at least the A8X in what would be the ATV4 giving it the graphic performance of at least the seventh generation consoles.

At the ATV4 launch, any thoughts of it being a console killer ended when Apple announced it with the A8.
 
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hancox

macrumors member
Dec 22, 2011
88
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A new device that actually supported 24 fps and not just 23.976 fps, a new device that supports HLG HDR, and a new device that fixes elevated blacks with DV HDR. If you have an OLED tv, you will understand about the elevated blacks.

Yes, yes, and yes. 2 out of 3 of these are outright defects, though they'll be sold as "improvements"
 

Juicy Box

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Sep 23, 2014
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Would anyone buy a 4K refurb now if it was $40 off? Or hold out another 5 months and hope they roll out one in March?
If I needed one, sure.

There is no guarantee that one will be out in March, so why wait?

Actually, there has been many rumors about imminent releases of a new ATV, and it still have not happened. Apple may never release another ATV, so really no point in waiting, and waiting, and waiting for something that may not ever happen.

I know people say they don't want to buy a three year old device, but even at three years, it is still the best device on the market.
 
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TVreporter

macrumors 68000
Mar 11, 2012
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My Gen 3 is on its last breath so I reluctantly jumped on a 64GB 4K that's on the Canadian refurb store - there are several if anyone is interested. It was $40 off.

Given my region will probably be under full lockdown again soon, it's going to be a long winter. Doubtful my Gen 3 was going to last until the spring when/if a new model rolls out. If it's a major upgrade, I'll scoop it up and sell the 4K.

Just disappointed Apple held off releasing off this year when rumours started back in January of the new one.
 
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