Waiting until tomorrow (July 13th) or pulling the trigger!!

[donw35]

I am waiting to see what happens, I want to get a Mac Pro but I'v got the time, if September is the time then I can wait another couple of months although this has made for very interesting reading.

 

[dimensional]

Why does everyone hate on gamers, I'm sick of that. I'm buying a mac for logic, so I need a mac. But also, I like to play pc games, sorry. I work hard as s*** for my money and if I want to play computer games, I'm going to- I mean for Christ sakes I'm gonna shell out 5k for a system, I better dam well be able to max out every setting on every game for at least a year or two...and I'm NOT buying two computers or a console. Now with steam there is NO excuse for laughable gpu options/support.

Apple fanboys don't hate gamers. They are just a convenient scapegoat to deflect negative attention away from their idols and gods.

 

[andyalibi]

Really? I have a PB G4 running FCP 6 (For field edits and P2 offloads) just fine! And, with ProRes part of the FCP6 package, I can edit 7d/5d2 files just fine!
Also, Apple WILL allow up to 30 days for exchange. I find it hard to believe your story of buying a laptop...only to be updated a week later. Completely your fault for not following up with a replacement *Again, if it TRULY happened the way you say it did

Yes...REALLY!
1. Each time i try to install my legit copy of FCP7 it tells me i need I need an Intel machine. I don't have FCP6 and would prefer to not have to go looking for 'non-legit' earlier version. Seems reasonable. My current (legit) version of FCE4 will not work with ProRes period. Gutted.
2. This certainly did happen, tho its true I was working on a job abroad and certainly wasn't in a position to do anything about it either way. Do you REALLY really find this so hard to believe... and what if it was 31 days or 32 days? You think i will be any less gutted? Like i said, the rig will have to last me years and it seems perfectly reasonable for folk to get pissed at Apple for not informing loyal customers.

Jeez, i came to this thread just to find a bit of info and save myself getting burnt again, not to get flamed... So if anyone has any helpful info or work-around for editing Pro-res on a G5 PPC (rather than sanctimonious waffle by someone with too much time on their hands) i'd be real grateful. Cheers and Peace!

 

[halprin]

Also, Apple WILL allow up to 30 days for exchange.

If I am correct, Apple's return policy is 14 days: http://storeimages.apple.com/1720/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/salespolicies.html#topic-21

According to that link, Apple's says that one must initiate a return within 14 days to initiate a return. You then have another 14 days to get the Apple product back to the warehouse from when the RMA is issued. So, if the person waits the maximum amount of time, that gives him or her 28 days. Is that what you meant? Or is there a way to have 30 days to initiate a return?

 

[ValSalva]

You quoted me at the top of your post, and ASSUMED I was moaning due to lack of power....that's not the case.

I was complaining because Apple is charging an extortionate price (even for Apple) for old hardware, whilst the cheaper 27" iMac comes with equal or better specs. This is what annoys me.

Apple need to get over themselves and lower the damn price. If this was any other company, they would have either provided something new to the machine, or lowered the price.

It would take Apple 5 minutes to reconfigure the pro. Bump the RAM up slightly, go up to the next CPU speed, and stick a TB hard drive in there...that's ALL they needed to do....but they wont because of their belief that they can sucker people into buying an overpriced machine.

Now I know some smartass is thinking 'buy an iMac then'. No idea about anyone else, but I've had enough of the iMac. I wont go into detail as that's for another day, but lets just say my personal experience has been a bad one with the iMac.

Now...dont get me wrong. I love Apple as much as the next guy. But I wont deny that over the last few months, I've started looking at them as a failing computer company, and a successful mobile company.

Agreed. The '09 Mac Pro still is a beast of a computer. But 16 months later it shouldn't cost exactly the same as when it was first released. It may be a business expense but that doesn't come close to justifying the diminishing by the day performance per dollar value of the "new" '09 Mac Pro.

 

[xgman]

I cant agree more im fed up with all these idiots banging on about how there sytems are slow or bottlenecked because they dont have the newest technology! if this is the case dont buy a mac! I think 90% of these people dont use there pros to the max and its just so they can fill up the signature at the bottom of their posts. Make some money and buy when you NEED it.

Simple fix for you, DON'T READ THEM!

 

[manhattanboy]

Agreed. The '09 Mac Pro still is a beast of a computer. But 16 months later it shouldn't cost exactly the same as when it was first released. It may be a business expense but that doesn't come close to justifying the diminishing by the day performance per dollar value of the "new" '09 Mac Pro.

LOL.

I have been looking at the various Windows specs now for 2 months.
The more I examine it, the more I realize that for 1/3rd the cost, I can get comparable performance.

Considering that I really would bootcamp up a new Mac pro anyways, it doesn't make sense anymore to wait.

It's hard to swallow leaving the Mac. But I did it once when I left the iPhone and am quite happy after the initial shocks, so I guess I can do it again...

I am reminded of sin #1 in how the mighty fall.
Hubris.
And it seems that it has infected Apple's concern for their customers.
Time to abandon ship? Or is everyone waiting for Apple to reach sin #2?

 

[MacVidCards]

I had really hoped to wake up today and read about you know what.

Not because I want one, but because I want a 2008/09 machine and the used market for those has been artificially propped up by lack of new ones.

And more importantly, Apple seems to be waiting for new Pro to release new GPUs.

It is fairly unprecedented that Apple leaked the 5870/5850/5750/5770 drivers themselves right after Nvidia leaked Fermi drivers. The 4870 drivers and ROM were successfully kept secret until Nehalem Macs came out. The GTX285 Mac drivers appeared WITH the card. (on a disk in box iirc)

The leaking of BOTH NEW GPU drivers in the space of a week in uncharacteristically sloppy for Apple. Normally I would guess that heads were rolling somewhere, but maybe it was planned?

Maybe to give hope when they knew they had a box full of nothing to offer in near future?

Or maybe they just don't care so much anymore?

Either way, it is quite likely that we are just one update leak away from having both of those GPU families working nicely in Macs. Will take a bit of the punch out of a "An All NEW Mac Pro with 2 ALL NEW GPUs !!!" if every Tom, Dick, and Harry already has a 5870 or GTX480 running in his '06.

Odd times indeed. And if they are delaying BOTH GPU families just to have a bigger "release" day, how very silly of them. But come to think of it, we had 4870 near-parity with PC world for about 2 weeks, then they got 4890. So perhaps Mac Pro w/5870 will come out 2 weeks before the 5890 from ATI/AMD?

 

[TheLOGICalone]

thank god, a sane perspective on mac pro graphics, thank you.

I had really hoped to wake up today and read about you know what.

Not because I want one, but because I want a 2008/09 machine and the used market for those has been artificially propped up by lack of new ones.

And more importantly, Apple seems to be waiting for new Pro to release new GPUs.

It is fairly unprecedented that Apple leaked the 5870/5850/5750/5770 drivers themselves right after Nvidia leaked Fermi drivers. The 4870 drivers and ROM were successfully kept secret until Nehalem Macs came out. The GTX285 Mac drivers appeared WITH the card. (on a disk in box iirc)

The leaking of BOTH NEW GPU drivers in the space of a week in uncharacteristically sloppy for Apple. Normally I would guess that heads were rolling somewhere, but maybe it was planned?

Maybe to give hope when they knew they had a box full of nothing to offer in near future?

Or maybe they just don't care so much anymore?

Either way, it is quite likely that we are just one update leak away from having both of those GPU families working nicely in Macs. Will take a bit of the punch out of a "An All NEW Mac Pro with 2 ALL NEW GPUs !!!" if every Tom, Dick, and Harry already has a 5870 or GTX480 running in his '06.

Odd times indeed. And if they are delaying BOTH GPU families just to have a bigger "release" day, how very silly of them. But come to think of it, we had 4870 near-parity with PC world for about 2 weeks, then they got 4890. So perhaps Mac Pro w/5870 will come out 2 weeks before the 5890 from ATI/AMD?

 

[mattbatt]

If you work with .R3D files from RED ONE, you can never have enough power...

I agree Torrey, btw, are you guys gonna wait for the next update? Are you running 09 MacPro's?

I had talked to you all a few months back (I work at Folsom Lake College and do video / design work for the college), nice seeing you on here.

Ya, today I am really frustrated because I am in a tight spot with my G5 dead in the water. I need a pro machine, but am thinking about building a hackintosh.

MacPro prices are so overpriced right now.

I wish the iMac had eSATA, I would build an external raid and go with that for now.

I think September still holds out hope for an update.

 

[Toaster Boy]

Just purchased mine! Head back tonight to pick it up. Enough waiting and a big Quad Core Processor salute to the Dual 800 which is still chugging along for it's years of service!

 

[Roman23]

I Don't!

PC is way better for gaming..

You say this but the Mac Pro becoming a "toy" could very well be the best thing for the Pro line. Most high end gaming machines or "toys" are way more than powerful enough to do "serious" jobs. And with steam out, a Mac Pro gaming edition could be the best thing for the Pro line in general, it would lead to more updates in the line and hopefully better driver support.

So I say bring on the toys!

 

[slughead]

The leaking of BOTH NEW GPU drivers in the space of a week in uncharacteristically sloppy for Apple. Normally I would guess that heads were rolling somewhere, but maybe it was planned?

I'd been waiting for someone to dig up the historical correlation between drivers and revisions.

As a person who has recently dealt with a recent bureaucratic nightmare, I may be biased but I think I have a pretty good theory:

I think that the Mac Pro was slated for release and then delayed for some reason. It could be a supply chain problem, production problem, or worst case: a marketing problem. It could also be that Apple has temporarily shifted production over from one facility to another for their recent iCrap dump.

It's all conjecture, but I'm betting they were planning to have released the dang thing already.

And like you, my motivation for wanting the new mac pros to come out is not so I can buy one. My reason is different though: the more mac pros, the more 3rd party stuff (like GPUs) become available for my mac pro so I don't have to buy a PC or pay a ridiculous premium for some of the silly idiosyncrasies of Apple hardware.

Also, it'd be nice to not have to boot into Windows someday for games. Right now, Apple SUUUUCCKS for games because they refuse to include decent GPUs (why make a game nobody can play?).

 

[slughead]

You say this but the Mac Pro becoming a "toy" could very well be the best thing for the Pro line. Most high end gaming machines or "toys" are way more than powerful enough to do "serious" jobs. And with steam out, a Mac Pro gaming edition could be the best thing for the Pro line in general, it would lead to more updates in the line and hopefully better driver support.

So I say bring on the toys!

Difference between "toy" gaming machines and "pro" machines:

Companies call them "Professional" or "workstations" so they can slap a bigger price tag on them for only slightly better performance at specific tasks than the Toys.

That's the only difference. It's called price discrimination (see link).

Someone said the mac pro is not a "toy"... it's a freakin lump of parts, get over it: you can use it for whatever you want. The snooty attitude towards games just keeps supply scarce, updates rare, and prices incredibly high.

 

[Roman23]

My thought on all of this..

Folks,

The Mac Pro was NEVER designed to be a gaming machine.. Nor will it ever be a gaming machine.. if you are looking for kickass video cards to put into the mac pro, you are advised to go somewhere else. The Mac Pro is a pro-line system and for professional based people and businesses. However, the single-quad core mac pro at a reasonable price of 2100.00 can actually be a good, and decent home computer desktop, but again like its 8-core siblings, it can't play games more efficiently than a PC since the PC has 1000's of more parts and video cards for it compared to the mac.

While steam will play great on the mac pro, I think on a PC it will play far more superior given that you can SLI or crossfire and although the Mac Pro offers crossfire under windows in limited capacity, the PC would be a better choice for gaming aside an xbox or playstation.

End of discussion!

Difference between "toy" gaming machines and "pro" machines:

Companies call them "Professional" or "workstations" so they can slap a bigger price tag on them for only slightly better performance at specific tasks than the Toys.

That's the only difference. It's called price discrimination (see link).

Someone said the mac pro is not a "toy"... it's a freakin lump of parts, get over it: you can use it for whatever you want. The snooty attitude towards games just keeps supply scarce, updates rare, and prices incredibly high.

 

[slughead]

The Mac Pro was NEVER designed to be a gaming machine.. Nor will it ever be a gaming machine..

Maybe you should read my previous post.

Yeah, the MP as it stands is a poor choice for people who want to use it for gaming because it's too freakin expensive. It has nothing to do with the hardware, the hardware is just overpriced.

You point out that the mac platform has few games and few video card choices. I point out that this is because Apple refuses to release some good video cards (even in their lesser computers) and therefore expand the game market as well as refusing to release a computer that can be upgraded and that isn't 2 fold more expensive than it should be. Lower the price, add more options, the market will grow, and other manufacturers will produce 3rd party upgrades that will entice gamers to choose mac--thus allowing game manufacturers to actually support the platform as well without it being a wasted investment.

 

[grue]

Folks,

The Mac Pro was NEVER designed to be a gaming machine.. Nor will it ever be a gaming machine.. if you are looking for kickass video cards to put into the mac pro, you are advised to go somewhere else. The Mac Pro is a pro-line system and for professional based people and businesses. However, the single-quad core mac pro at a reasonable price of 2100.00 can actually be a good, and decent home computer desktop, but again like its 8-core siblings, it can't play games more efficiently than a PC since the PC has 1000's of more parts and video cards for it compared to the mac.

While steam will play great on the mac pro, I think on a PC it will play far more superior given that you can SLI or crossfire and although the Mac Pro offers crossfire under windows in limited capacity, the PC would be a better choice for gaming aside an xbox or playstation.

End of discussion!

HURRR DUUUUURRRRRRRRR elitism is awesome!!11

Nevermind that plenty of people might need the Mac Pro for their work, and want to game on the side without buying a dedicated computer for it. GOD FORBID they put the taint of Windows on their precious Mac! Dear god, the lord Steve might smite us for blasphemy and the DirectX Cult will rage because we're not using the absolute best gaming solution in the world.

Christ's crotch on a cub scout, some of you people need to get over yourselves. It's a computer, stop fellating it.

You point out that the mac platform has few games and few video card choices. I point out that this is because Apple refuses to release some good video cards and therefore expand the game market as well as refusing to release a computer that can be upgraded and that isn't 2 fold more expensive than it should be.

How is that Apple's fault? Nvid and Ati don't need to wait for handjobs from Cupertino, they can release video cards any time they want. However, there's clearly very little market for them outside of Apple using them as an OEM.

 

[Roman23]

Agreed!

But for this to happen, I think Mr. Jobs needs to step down and bring a new young gamer as the ceo of Apple, Inc and then you will see technologies in the mac on the mac side such as: crossfire, sli, etc...

I agree.. however until such a day comes where OS X can really be installed without headaches like Linux, I shall wait on building a hackintosh.

Maybe you should read my previous post.

Yeah, the MP as it stands is a poor choice for people who want to use it for gaming because it's too freakin expensive. It has nothing to do with the hardware, the hardware is just overpriced.

You point out that the mac platform has few games and few video card choices. I point out that this is because Apple refuses to release some good video cards (even in their lesser computers) and therefore expand the game market as well as refusing to release a computer that can be upgraded and that isn't 2 fold more expensive than it should be. Lower the price, add more options, the market will grow, and other manufacturers will produce 3rd party upgrades that will entice gamers to choose mac--thus allowing game manufacturers to actually support the platform as well without it being a wasted investment.

 

[slughead]

How is that Apple's fault? Nvid and Ati don't need to wait for handjobs from Cupertino, they can release video cards any time they want. However, there's clearly very little market for them outside of Apple using them as an OEM.

I meant to add in: Apple made all of their "consumer" computers (iMac, Mini, macbook) lumpy bunches of poop--that's their fault.

Only recently have they put any kind of GPU worth playing a game on into their "affordable" computers. This has lead directly to the new games that have come out. Unfortunately there's no incentive for companies to release 3rd party cards for the mac pro line (which nobody owns, and the few who do are less likely to be gamers). That could change if they stop seeing the MP as a "pro" money pit and actually put some mid-range parts into it and sell it at a decent price.

 

[Roman23]

I have no real love/hate relationship between Mac os X and WIndows.. On contrar, I also run windows 7 as a separate drive on my mac pro and so far I am extremely pleased with its performance.. for my specs, the OS rates it all at 7.8 out of 7.9 - a worthy number if you ask me.. try that on a PC. But not getting off a tangent here... I just firmly believe that the philosophy behind the Mac was never to take over the gaming market... rather, its goal was to influnce and revolve around the arts such as: video editing, rendering, etc.. audio creation..

Windows does lack some good software that Apple uses for this purpose, but given the direction I see for the Mac, there might not be(in steve's eyes) a need to implement crossfire or sli as those technologies are considered windowsish and as such are not to be put on a mac logic board..

I think its pretty senseless though, as I have high hopes that one day he will step down and someone brighter, and younger who happens to be a gamer might implement such said technologies.. But I don't ever see that happening, given the current direction of Apple.

HURRR DUUUUURRRRRRRRR elitism is awesome!!11

Nevermind that plenty of people might need the Mac Pro for their work, and want to game on the side without buying a dedicated computer for it. GOD FORBID they put the taint of Windows on their precious Mac! Dear god, the lord Steve might smite us for blasphemy and the DirectX Cult will rage because we're not using the absolute best gaming solution in the world.

Christ's crotch on a cub scout, some of you people need to get over yourselves. It's a computer, stop fellating it.

This is 100 percent true.. ATI doesn't see a huge market for such video cards.. and Nvidia I don't know much about, but according to nanofrog, nvidia is in serious financial problems right now.

How is that Apple's fault? Nvid and Ati don't need to wait for handjobs from Cupertino, they can release video cards any time they want. However, there's clearly very little market for them outside of Apple using them as an OEM.

The Mac Pro is simply not built around gaming as you say.. it has the potential yes, but Apple doesn't want to get involved with that.. and perhaps this may be why no such update to the mac pro is not happening at least right now..

Sandy Bridge opens a lot of nice opportunities for the mac pro.. but whether or not it will be a middle priced machine including crossfire or sli is anyone's guess.. I don't see that happening under the current CEO or execs.

I firmly believe however that our mac pros can be great game boxes, but it would require a lot of thinking in terms of a future model.. GAMING THESE days almost is much more fun using crossfire and sli.. Perhaps in the future maybe when Jobs steps down we may see a nice price for a beefed up mac pro being able to take on the hard-core pc gaming machines.. but not now.

I meant to add in: Apple made all of their "consumer" computers (iMac, Mini, macbook) lumpy bunches of poop--that's their fault.

Only recently have they put any kind of GPU worth playing a game on into their "affordable" computers. This has lead directly to the new games that have come out. Unfortunately there's no incentive for companies to release 3rd party cards for the mac pro line (which nobody owns, and the few who do are less likely to be gamers). That could change if they stop seeing the MP as a "pro" money pit and actually put some mid-range parts into it and sell it at a decent price.

 

[deconstruct60]

It has nothing to do with the hardware, the hardware is just overpriced.

Equivalent hardware, tower (not mini) workstations are priced about the same from most "PC" vendors. Apple doesn't make a mini tower. Nor does Apple make a high end modular/upgrade multiple core parts oriented box with fans glalore , bling bling lighting , and a socket for every imaginable device a consumer could buy.

They don't build those product. The disccussion with Apple likely go no where as long as misdirect assignments and value placements.

Lower the price, add more options, the market will grow, and other manufacturers will produce 3rd party upgrades that will entice gamers to choose mac--.

This just myopically looks at the market from a gamer perspective. There is the whole mac market. The Mac sub market is about 4-7% of the overall personal computer market. Apple isn't trying to push it higher. All primarily want to do is just keep that percentage from shrinking. As the overall market grows, so do they but not trying to outgrow the market. So if the intense gamer market is 25% (being very generous) of the overall market then this market talking about is about 1-1.75% of the market. if the intense gamer market is closer to 10% then down in the sub 1% range. Vendors aren't going to bend over backwards for 1%, especially when it comes at additional costs.

Every year mainstream GPUs get faster and faster. The evil "mobile" GPUs that are put into iMacs , mini's and mac laptops are just as fast as stuff from 3 years ago. If gameplay (the substance of the game) matters more than how many polygons can burp onto the screen than going to have a set of entertaining games to choose from. ( people play PSPs, gameboys, iOS devices all the time and they don't have earth shattering SLI/Crossifire , etc stats on their GPUs. ) It boils down to substantiveness over tech stats.

It isn't apple is necessarily against games. it is the notion that need to dump 45-65% of power supply into graphics pipeline(s) to be "creditable player" in the market.

It is also completely the tail wagging the dog situation when trying to assert Apple needs to change systems pricing so that can sell more video cards. That's backwards. If selling more systems meant selling more video cards they would. However, Apple using number of discrete video cards sold as a primary goal metric is backwards.

Neither does Apple require intense gamers to stay afloat. They just need 4-6% of the market of overall market. There are plenty of demographics to go after. It should also be obvious that the long term trend is that generally the GPU is going to get folded into the CPU package. Discrete video cards is not a huge market growth segment over next 5-6 years.



As the number of units in the Mac market gets bigger it will get more attractive to those vendors are perhaps looking for anything. However, as long as they primarily do risk/reward versus the overall market it will always be a smaller play.

 

[LiquidSnake]

Difference between "toy" gaming machines and "pro" machines:

Companies call them "Professional" or "workstations" so they can slap a bigger price tag on them for only slightly better performance at specific tasks than the Toys.

That's the only difference. It's called price discrimination (see link).

Someone said the mac pro is not a "toy"... it's a freakin lump of parts, get over it: you can use it for whatever you want. The snooty attitude towards games just keeps supply scarce, updates rare, and prices incredibly high.

Agreed, I just think its funny how if it is called a "gaming" machine it is looked down upon as a "toy", however compare what people want in a Mac Pro revision to some of the computers coming out from brands such as Alienware... its the same thing.

PC is way better for gaming..

While I do not disagree with you on this point, I do not see why you say "I don't" to "Bring on the toys!".

If Apple decided to step into the game, of gaming, would lead to more constant updates than whats out now, all the pro non "toy" users will get to benefit by being able to stay current, and not have to buy hardware that is always 6 months behind.

Just because a computer has a high end graphics card does not mean it should be labeled a "gaming toy". Just because people's workstation needs might not be graphics intensive, there are many other Pro users who I'm sure would just love to have these higher end cards for high end video, 3d graphics, rendering, etc. The faster the GPU the faster work can get done, and after all time is money.

Besides, its not like you would be forced to buy these high end GPUs, Apple will still more than likely keep other options, because some Pro users don't do graphics intensive productions, and there's nothing wrong with that. It just seems that some of posters earlier in this thread saying the Mac Pro is not a "toy", but just because you do not need a higher end graphics card in your particular application, does not mean you should discount every other Pro user.

Bottom line is, if Apple decided to get even a bit more serious about gaming on the Mac platform, we all win. From the sound engineer to the graphics animators to gamers, we would all win.

 

[strausd]

Just because a computer has a high end graphics card does not mean it should be labeled a "gaming toy". Just because people's workstation needs might not be graphics intensive, there are many other Pro users who I'm sure would just love to have these higher end cards for high end video, 3d graphics, rendering, etc. The faster the GPU the faster work can get done, and after all time is money.

Generally rendering is more CPU intensive, which is one reason I am eagerly awaiting a 12-core MP.

 

[Foggy]

Slower cpu speeds on the 8-core though :/ Half the apps wont touch the second CPU.

I really did consider going down the hackintosh line after I saw that you could get a Del with double the specs for half the price, however I really dont want that risk of instability

I'm really hating Apple right now....they have completely crapped all over the faces of its pro users and quite frankly deserves to loose the market!

I agree completely, for me wanting the 2 cpu version is nothing to do with the 2nd cpu but completely about wanting the extra ram capacity, although there is part of me that expects the extra cores to be utilised more over the lifetime of the machine.

What is going to kill me is that I don't need a new machine this side of August, but come the start of September my workload ramps up significantly and I am going to find it very difficult to push the button to buy a machine that is a year and a half old at full price.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

Generally rendering is more CPU intensive, which is one reason I am eagerly awaiting a 12-core MP.

Except when using a GPU based renderer, of course.

Tried Octane out a while back. Very cool. I'll stick with my old CPU bound renderers for now, though.