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kingtj

macrumors 68030
Oct 23, 2003
2,606
749
Brunswick, MD
Trolling?

I hardly think I'm "trolling" .... but as I said earlier, I *do* have a serious problem with the way eBay allows business to be conducted on their site.

eBay started out as little more than a "virtual" version of a flea market. But as anyone who has ever been to a real flea market knows, there's NO expectation of getting refunds if you're not fully satisfied with whatever you buy there! You're often lucky if you can even FIND the seller the next time you go back to one!

As eBay grew and became the dominant online marketplace, they started making all kinds of rules to try to maximize their profits - including the HIGHLY suspect buyout of PayPal and subsequent requirement you use it to pay for things! Then they proceeded to remove the ability for a seller to leave any comments on feedback left for him/her. They've put together an environment where the seller pays to list an item, pays extra to have a "buy it now" price put on it, and pays AGAIN when the item sells -- not to mention their PayPal part of their business taking a 3-4% cut of the funds received from the buyer when the item is paid for! After all of that? There's basically NO protection for the seller against fraudulent claims of "product not as advertised"!

It's simply a hostile environment for a seller -- and the ONLY reason a lot of us still resort to using it is because so many people look there for things. You just can't get nearly as many "viewers" by advertising anywhere else.

But directly addressing your story? It just doesn't add up to me. You're saying you wouldn't have minded if this iBook arrived all scratched up and maybe even with a broken latch, but a worn button below its trackpad is a "dramatic problem" for you, which would lead you to demand a refund?!

The supposed value of $70 on Mac2Sell is pretty meaningless, IMHO. I've seen used/refurbished iBooks going for over $150 (and selling out quickly!) when offered by popular Mac vendors on the net in the past (such as Other World Computing). And regardless, YOU are the one who agreed to pay $300 for this one. Why didn't you skip any listing asking much more than $70 if you believed Mac2Sell was the end-all be-all of Mac price guides?

I know SO many laptop users who carry a regular mouse around in the bag with their laptop and never use the built-in trackpad mouse. I would think that'd be a quick and easy fix to solve all your "dramatic problems" with functionality in this case (or even setting up a tap to click on the trackpad, as the seller mentioned -- which works too).

As someone else here also said, offering to give back $25 or maybe even $50 under the circumstances would probably be workable, as well. (If I was selling it, I'd give back as much as $50 over something like this, if it was such a big deal to the buyer.....) But $100 off? I wouldn't accept that either. For all I know, you could just be another buyer trying to con me out of some money on the deal, lying about the button being as bad as you claimed!

(Not too long ago, I went through that with a Sony camcorder I sold a lady out in Nevada. She demanded a full refund claiming a selector switch on it was broken. I *knew* it was fine when I shipped it, but she insisted the camera was "useless" without it working right. Reluctantly, I refunded her ... and guess what? I got the camera back and it was FINE! Nothing wrong with that switch whatsoever! But now I was screwed out of close to $40 in postage that I never got back!)


Hey kingtj, I would not have minded having a laptop that came very scratched up, or dirty, or with a broken latch, etc. You kind of expect that with an old laptop. But a non-functional mouse button dramatically affects the usability of the machine. The seller neglected to mention it.

Sounds like you're just trolling, but as for being "greedy", Mac2Sell lists this computer as being worth $70. I paid over $300 because I was assured by the seller that the only problem was minor scratching. I don't think it's unreasonable for buyers to expect an accurate description of a product before buying.
 

Epsilon88

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 26, 2009
327
0
I agree about one point - I should have asked for $40-$50 off. That would have made it more reasonable.

But I have to disagree with you otherwise. After reading the ad thoroughly, I personally asked the seller if there was anything wrong with it, and he said no, aside from scratches. If a seller flat-out lies about the condition of a laptop, then I think the buyer deserves a refund. I offered to pay the shipping costs from and back, in return for my money. Then he could have accurately described the item and resold it at its fair price.

Your story is completely different. In that case, the buyer was the one who was making things up. In this case, I offered to show him a clip from my iPhone.
 

macjonny1

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2006
554
117
You have to work very hard to be ripped off as a buyer on ebay. Not so as a seller, but buyers have all of the protection. Again, if you get ripped off on ebay as a buyer it is your own fault.
 

WilliamG

macrumors G3
Mar 29, 2008
9,926
3,800
Seattle
I agree about one point - I should have asked for $40-$50 off. That would have made it more reasonable.

But I have to disagree with you otherwise. After reading the ad thoroughly, I personally asked the seller if there was anything wrong with it, and he said no, aside from scratches. If a seller flat-out lies about the condition of a laptop, then I think the buyer deserves a refund. I offered to pay the shipping costs from and back, in return for my money. Then he could have accurately described the item and resold it at its fair price.

Your story is completely different. In that case, the buyer was the one who was making things up. In this case, I offered to show him a clip from my iPhone.


I don't think any amount of money makes it OK to sell something that works "great" with a mouse button that doesn't. Personally, he could take $200 off the machine, but if that didn't cover my getting the mouse button fixed by Apple and THEN some, it'd be going back. No question.
 

MacHamster68

macrumors 68040
Sep 17, 2009
3,251
5
i agree with some here ebay isnt really the place to sell, if you want to make a honest sale ,and still a profit
all the listing fees and final fees force sellers to be a bit dishonest by not mentioning something
i seen it myself , i listed everything as it was without hiding anything , and what is i sold a mini g4 for £ 200 including software discs for panther and leopard, apple alu keyboard and a msi wind hackintosh for £200 and a freeview lcd tv for £30 , but at the end if i calculate after the ebay fees and final value fees and paypal fees
makes in total nearly £80 i have to deduct from the sales which makes all of them a loss
when ebay started , i know it when i lived in germany back then you could transfer the fees onto the buyer , you had to mention it in the listing , then it was profitable to sell , but since they changed that years ago it makes selling senseless in my opinion only worth if you did inted to throw the stuff away otherwise , then you can still get your initial costs in , but if your intention is to make a tiny bit of profit after the fees forget ebay

not to mention i lost the case where i bought my imac g5 which turned out to have a blown capacitor , but as its working with that so far with only occasional freezes after a couple days , its to be expected from a used machine , i cant proof it was the sellers intention to hide anything , ebay assumes he didn't know and sold as used so he did not hide anything but didnt mentioning anything either , finished case closed another loss for me ,

now i have to sell the imac g5 as spares or repair to get alt least the ebay fees out of the deal , i am not business seller , so i cant compensate a loss on one item with another item with profit , and for the future buy only if i can drive there and see the item before i bid and no electronic stuff if its not new, i might lose out some great deals then , but the risk of getting a pile of junk is to high
 

sagnier

macrumors regular
Sep 19, 2007
128
0
this is the problem with ebay. seller worries that describing something as 100% working means that there will invariably be a comeback, (because buyers are picky) and he will be liable. conversely, buyer optimistically hopes that the cagey language used to describe the item actually means '100%working!'.

with a laptop though, especially an old one like this, it is never going to be perfect. the seller said 'as is', which means 'you've only got my description to go on, and anything beyond that i'm not liable for'. mind you, he also said 'everything works great'. of course, then he qualifies 'everything' by saying
'(network, hard drive, DVD drive)'. so its very tricky...

i think you were ripped off, in that the seller obviously knew the button was faulty. but being ripped off on ebay doesnt count for much.
 

Epsilon88

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 26, 2009
327
0
Yeah, I was disappointed that the mouse button was busted. And I should mention too that the monitor is defective, so that it's difficult to read the screen without a lamp. Anyway, I've learned some important lessons:

1) If you buy "as is", expect that it will be broken, even if the seller insists that it's in perfect condition.

2) Give up the fixation with "nostalgia". Yes, you want that Clamshell iBook or that iMac G3 with the cool swivel monitor. But honestly, once you USE it, the perks of having a nostalgia product wear off quickly. Your eyes hurt because of the poor quality screen and you hate that you can't even use YouTube!

3) eBay is a surprisingly safe place to shop. Even though I got ripped off here, they have a good dispute system. We'll see what the outcome in my case is.
 

Ruahrc

macrumors 65816
Jun 9, 2009
1,345
0
It's VERY possible/likely the seller was using the laptop with an external mouse instead of the trackpad, so he may well have not even realized (or thought it an issue) the button was in poor shape on the laptop itself.

...

See I don't agree with this at all. If you're selling it, it should be YOUR responsibility, as the seller, to make sure you know the condition of the item you're selling. I don't think it's too much to ask, that if you are selling a laptop that you carefully check each of its original functions to make sure that everything is working as it should, or that you can properly state/document what parts aren't working properly. Especially pretty basic functionality like the mouse button. That you may not have used those features yourself is immaterial, you're selling the laptop and the buyer may not use it in the same manner as you did. It's like selling a laptop with a broken screen and saying "works great" and when the seller complains you respond with "did you know you can attach an external monitor to the laptop and run it like that? I never used the built in screen myself so I never really found it to be a problem".

eBay is different from flea markets in that you cannot personally inspect the item before sale. At a flea market the OP could have booted the machine and saw that the mouse button was finicky, and either argued for a discount or passed on the sale. On eBay, all he has to go by is the seller's word.

Personally I have seen more times than not that the buyer uses "carefully constructed" wording to hide deficiencies they know about, or to make their product look better. From the responses here, you can tell that overstating your product on ebay is a rampant problem. It has gotten to the point where people are now just expecting it, and I don't think that is okay. Why should you expect that an old laptop has something on it broken, when the seller did not explicitly say so? If it has a defect, state so in the auction. If it does not, say so and be able to back up your claims.
 

Consultant

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,314
34
.....

This laptop comes with a DVD drive and CDRW, great for watching movies on the go or making music CDs. There are zero dead pixels, and I comes with a newer replacement battery. After wiping drive and installing MacOSX there was minimal drain.Buyer pays all related shipping costs. Laptop was tested, everything (network, hard drive, DVD drive) works great! This is a great and inexpensive way to enjoy the Mac experience. Being sold as is."

Item is not as described, thus "As is" does not apply.

Btw, for slightly more, an iPad is more responsive in quite a lot of tasks.
 
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