Let me be honest for a minute or two. Our beloved computer/software company is on the wrong track. I love Apple. I do. Apple is the reason the pc is a modern success. The mouse, firewire, graphical interface, the iPod-Apple is the best. But something is wrong-very wrong. I awaited MWSF as all of you and at first was blown away. From the new browser to the new powerbook, I thought like many of you that Apple outdid itself yet again. But it didn't. Here is why-Apple computers and products are works of art but they are too expensive. Almost $3,500 for a Powerbook?! A laptop that (let us be honest) is really a desktop. And almostt $2,000 for a 12" Powerbook? The average consumer cares about two things only-how much is it and will it break. Sure there are other concerns but those two are the most important. I say this because for two days I fought with myself over whether to by a 12" iBook or a 12" Powerbook. Yes there are major differences but honestly all I need it for is for word processing, the internet, music, and video. And I fought with myself because I was suckered in by the MWSF cool factor of the new powerbook. But the fact is the iBook is just what I need and I'm making this decision because of price. Apple will never be able to compete when its hardware is so expensive and I don't know why S. Jobs does not see this. We could take the industry by storm if our computers were cheaper than a pc. People would come in droves to buy an Apple. No one is loyal to Microsoft. No one likes Mircosoft but the average pc is cheaper and more powerful than a Mac. Not everyone is a tech geek like me. They want the most bang for the most buck and when the average comsumer compares a Intel P4 at $1400 with a Apple G4 at $1800 who do you think they will go with? We need to move away from this Apple cult thing. It is killing us. We finally have an OS that kicks ass. We have real applications that the average person can really use. We have the best mp3 player ever. But when the average person compares a 5GB iPod at $300 with an Archos 20GB at $300 which do you think that person will buy? Yes the Archos looks like a piece of crap, but it is the best bang for the buck. And where are the G5's? Why don't we have them yet? Why are we still at 800Mhz? S. Jobs has half of it right. Design is important but price and speed are the most important. We've all heard about those Lindows comptuers sold at WalMart for $199 right? They have become one of WalMarts biggest sellers. Why? Price. Plain and simple. Who the hell has heard of Lindows? But its cheap and people want cheap. Imagine if the new 12" powerbook was $1300 and the iBook were $600. Or if the 5gb iPod were $150 and the 20gb were $300. You would see Apple products everywhere-even without the speed bumps that our comptuers really need. Apple has a chance here but it needs to be cheaper. Just think of the game wars. We all know that the XBox and Playstation are worth $400 if you think about it. But they lower their prices to sell their products. That is what we need to do. Sell our computers and sell them fast. don't hate me for this. I just think we can do better.
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We need to save Apple.
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When you buy a cheap POS don't expect an innovative product. Don't expect a quality product either.
Nobody forces anyone to buy more expensive product either.
And the frequency of the clock does no make a computer more powerful, as many have pointed out time and again - the mobile P3 was at one point more powerful than the higher frequency mobile P4.
Nobody forces anyone to buy more expensive product either.
And the frequency of the clock does no make a computer more powerful, as many have pointed out time and again - the mobile P3 was at one point more powerful than the higher frequency mobile P4.
I don't think you are thinking straight here, were can you find a quality laptop for $600??? Like most things with computers you get what you pay for and that is why it is worth it for a macintosh. Yes 3,500 dollars might be a lot of money, but that is not the only option available to consumers, the price goes down to $999 for an iBook...and you state that the new powerbook is actually a desktop replacement, if you belive that then $3,500 is not that much because you would have to add in the price of a 17" widescreen display to a new desktops price....As far as a G5 goes, maybe you are not aware yet but that is out of Apples hands so you can blame Motorola for that one. If Apple is going in the wrong direction so bad with products like the iPod, then why have they been selling so well? Not everyone out there is a moron, many can see where the quality is.
Just think of it in terms of cars.
Do you spend the extra money for a quality product that will have few problems, is innovative, looks nice, and performs well?
Do you buy the Kia or the BMW? You save money on the Kia, but you get a plain car that will develop many problems as time goes on. The BMW on the other hand has many more features that aren't essential, but make life easier. You don't have the headache of breakdowns all the time. Essentially, they get you from point A to point B, but the difference is how you get there. Which can you count on to work when you need it to? Do you want to pay the extra money for a smoother ride?
Do you spend the extra money for a quality product that will have few problems, is innovative, looks nice, and performs well?
Do you buy the Kia or the BMW? You save money on the Kia, but you get a plain car that will develop many problems as time goes on. The BMW on the other hand has many more features that aren't essential, but make life easier. You don't have the headache of breakdowns all the time. Essentially, they get you from point A to point B, but the difference is how you get there. Which can you count on to work when you need it to? Do you want to pay the extra money for a smoother ride?
It's just natural.
KermitX,
The PC industry is going thru a transition right now. Like most industries with steep competition it becomes hard to differentiate products to attract consumers. What happens is companys refine their target for certain consumer demographics and that is what Apple is doing. I really don't think Apple cares to much about attracting consumers that only care about the price. I mean think about it. Let's take my 65 year old dad. All he cares about is price and if he can check his email. That's it that's all. Apple offers so much more than just email and a cheap computer. Look at all the iApps. My dad could care less about creating a DVD. But who does? His 29 year old Software Engineer son, me. Apple is after the creative people, younger digital generation, and professionals. Why? They are the ones with the most money and are techinically savy and/or educated. They appreciate the "whole" package not just the price.
Apple is who it's employees are and they are like the consumer demographics Apple is trying to target. "We" gravitate to Apple because "it's just natural" for people of the same mind set to like the same things. Keep your head up. Apple is not stupid and is not going anywhere with $4 Billion dollars in cash in the bank.
Apple and only Apple for me.
I Switched March 2002.
ooartist
KermitX,
The PC industry is going thru a transition right now. Like most industries with steep competition it becomes hard to differentiate products to attract consumers. What happens is companys refine their target for certain consumer demographics and that is what Apple is doing. I really don't think Apple cares to much about attracting consumers that only care about the price. I mean think about it. Let's take my 65 year old dad. All he cares about is price and if he can check his email. That's it that's all. Apple offers so much more than just email and a cheap computer. Look at all the iApps. My dad could care less about creating a DVD. But who does? His 29 year old Software Engineer son, me. Apple is after the creative people, younger digital generation, and professionals. Why? They are the ones with the most money and are techinically savy and/or educated. They appreciate the "whole" package not just the price.
Apple is who it's employees are and they are like the consumer demographics Apple is trying to target. "We" gravitate to Apple because "it's just natural" for people of the same mind set to like the same things. Keep your head up. Apple is not stupid and is not going anywhere with $4 Billion dollars in cash in the bank.
Apple and only Apple for me.
I Switched March 2002.
ooartist
These few simple words tell us certain things:
Tailors will always have jobs
Apple, BMW, MBZ, Patek Phillipe, Mont-Blanc, Snap-On, Sony, Leica, Kenneth Cole, Absolut, MagLite, Porsche, Gucci, B & O, etc. will not be 'priced' out of the market. People prefer to pay more for these things, because they 'perceive' more value. Good shoes last longer than Converse. An MBZ is better made than a Kia. I fine watch is yours for life. Noboby signs a treaty with a Bic Rollerball, and gets re-elected.
Hookers are like a box of chocolates. The good ones cost more.
Thinking with your mind will get you farther than thinking with your wallet.
Ever notice how a $1099 Sony 36" tv looks a lot like a Panasonic $599 36" tv. Do you think Sony is going to disappear? Neither is Apple
In these troubled economics times, luxury brands are preserving their new customers in new ways. MBZ offers a nice 25k Coupé (about what an Accord costs?). Fashion houses offer value lines. Apple offers iBooks & eMacs.
The reason Apple machines cost more is not that they use expensive parts. It is that Apple pays good people lots of money to research things, and make them nice. They also are not compelled to sacrifice their margins, as they are not in the cut-throat bargain PC game.
You know who's profitable in a recession? Luxury companies.
You know who loses?
Bulk sales, low margin companies.
Apple is luxury computing. It is a reward to yourself. If you can't afford it, get Linux. It's similar in all non graphical ways to OSX, and its cheap.
The only machines which compete on quality with Apple are AlienWare & Sony (in the laptop market), and HP & Dell in the pro (workstation market). The price differences aren't huge either, when you price a WORKSTATION against a PowerMac, low-end laptops againts iBooks, or high-en laptops against PowerBooks.
You should never walk in to Tiffany's and tell them their jewelry is overpriced, nor should you expect much sympathy here.
Yes, we agree it's expensive stuff, but I think we also agree that it is worth the premium to enjoy computing.
These things are all true, about Apple being a premium company. But i'd like to add something. Every year, inflation hits and makes the dollar a little more worthless. And yet, for much of Apple's history, computers over $5,000 were not uncommon. I just bought a PB3400 that in it's day (1997), retailed for around $6,500. That's nothing compared to $3,300 for a PB today.
I do see where you're coming from, which is I think someone who cannot afford such a monster (i'm in the same boat, don't feel bad). But people still flock to buy Apple computers. Hell, the consumer editions are now between $1000 and $1800. Not long ago, Apple had no consumer machines, but similar lines cost at least a thousand more.
Apple's pricing has become more competitive, not less. Mostly to accomodate the cheaper PC prices that are hitting. Often premium companies do exactly the opposite. Technology has made watches so cheap that they're disposable now. You can probably find them for less than ten dollars at most stores. But people still pay $10,000+ for watches, easily... It's the difference between making watches and the art of making watches...
pnw
I do see where you're coming from, which is I think someone who cannot afford such a monster (i'm in the same boat, don't feel bad). But people still flock to buy Apple computers. Hell, the consumer editions are now between $1000 and $1800. Not long ago, Apple had no consumer machines, but similar lines cost at least a thousand more.
Apple's pricing has become more competitive, not less. Mostly to accomodate the cheaper PC prices that are hitting. Often premium companies do exactly the opposite. Technology has made watches so cheap that they're disposable now. You can probably find them for less than ten dollars at most stores. But people still pay $10,000+ for watches, easily... It's the difference between making watches and the art of making watches...
pnw
And when you use Apples for business, it's how much you can make money out of that machine that counts. So I've got multiple Cinema Displays and PowerMac MDDs and Tibooks, and making tons of money here
I'll probably end up buying that 17" Powerbook too, sometime in the future.
I'll probably end up buying that 17" Powerbook too, sometime in the future.
Ill tell ya what....I am a recent switcher. I spent a little less than $2000 for an iBook (AirPort card and ram , 700mhz ) when it was the top of the line about 2.5 months ago. Since then I have seen it get bumped down twice and you know what ....... Im just waiting to see what the new 12" PB looks like in person then , if I like , which I'm sure I will, Ill get one of those too. Probably and APX card and ram for that.
"The average consumer cares about two things only-how much is it and will it break" - With a statement like this , I hope you are not in a company's marketing department...
"And I fought with myself because I was suckered in by the MWSF cool factor of the new powerbook" - Sounds like you need a few self help books. I want the new PB not because I was suckered but becuase Im a geek....
"We could take the industry by storm if our computers were cheaper than a pc. " - Yea....Ummm...Ok that statement could be said about anything...Of course if you are getting a FAR SUPERIOR PRODUCT (Apple of course) for less then a clunky POS you wiull get people to buy it in droves....DUH!! But one of two things will happen ... If the company making the superiour product is not making any money off of it the company will either go under or have to start to cut corners and the consumer ultimately ends up with a similar POS.. Things cost money to make...Good things cost more...Its that simple. Unless a breakthrough is made in some technology that allows the product to be better and cheaper . Even then you can count on the competition finding out soon enough and leveling out the playing field.
"Design is important but price and speed are the most important. " - Really ...So what you are saying is quality doesnt matter?? Very interesting.....
"We've all heard about those Lindows comptuers sold at WalMart for $199 right? They have become one of WalMarts biggest sellers" - Really?? BIggest sellers aye?? Have you ever know anyone to buy one?? Its a friggin joke... I have contact with someone who bought one....They came to me for Advice when they had problems.....I fiddled with it.......laughed a lot...handed it back and told them to buy a Mac..They are now sitting , very happliy I must ad, in front of and eMac. That person learned the route of el-cheapo real quick. Oh...Id like to see you marketing data supporting this statement.
". Sell our computers and sell them fast. "... Did you ever work for Dell or Gateway??
"The average consumer cares about two things only-how much is it and will it break" - With a statement like this , I hope you are not in a company's marketing department...
"And I fought with myself because I was suckered in by the MWSF cool factor of the new powerbook" - Sounds like you need a few self help books. I want the new PB not because I was suckered but becuase Im a geek....
"We could take the industry by storm if our computers were cheaper than a pc. " - Yea....Ummm...Ok that statement could be said about anything...Of course if you are getting a FAR SUPERIOR PRODUCT (Apple of course) for less then a clunky POS you wiull get people to buy it in droves....DUH!! But one of two things will happen ... If the company making the superiour product is not making any money off of it the company will either go under or have to start to cut corners and the consumer ultimately ends up with a similar POS.. Things cost money to make...Good things cost more...Its that simple. Unless a breakthrough is made in some technology that allows the product to be better and cheaper . Even then you can count on the competition finding out soon enough and leveling out the playing field.
"Design is important but price and speed are the most important. " - Really ...So what you are saying is quality doesnt matter?? Very interesting.....
"We've all heard about those Lindows comptuers sold at WalMart for $199 right? They have become one of WalMarts biggest sellers" - Really?? BIggest sellers aye?? Have you ever know anyone to buy one?? Its a friggin joke... I have contact with someone who bought one....They came to me for Advice when they had problems.....I fiddled with it.......laughed a lot...handed it back and told them to buy a Mac..They are now sitting , very happliy I must ad, in front of and eMac. That person learned the route of el-cheapo real quick. Oh...Id like to see you marketing data supporting this statement.
". Sell our computers and sell them fast. "... Did you ever work for Dell or Gateway??
I just wonder why kermitX is using an expensive Mac? Isn't it kinda self-explanatory?
I guess he's assuming people out there are stupid and do not care about anything other than price and speed. I used to think the same when I was studying Industrial Design in NYC.
Anybody cares about quality, even those people addicted to Walmart.
In my opinion, they just don't know what else is out there other than PCs. That switch ad is doing well to educate people.
It's true that PC market is driven by the price and speed, I think. The reason for that is because they make very similar products and there are not much difference in quality (except for a few outstanding one, of course). In the Mac world it works differently.
I think we scared kermitX away
I guess he's assuming people out there are stupid and do not care about anything other than price and speed. I used to think the same when I was studying Industrial Design in NYC.
Anybody cares about quality, even those people addicted to Walmart.
In my opinion, they just don't know what else is out there other than PCs. That switch ad is doing well to educate people.
It's true that PC market is driven by the price and speed, I think. The reason for that is because they make very similar products and there are not much difference in quality (except for a few outstanding one, of course). In the Mac world it works differently.
I think we scared kermitX away
Re: We need to save Apple.
When I bought my PowerBook 8 months ago, I took at look at similar Laptops from Toshiba and Dell. At $3800 (list) for a then full blowd TiBook 800 w/1GB ram, it was within a couple of hundred dollars of a similarly equipped laptop from those companies. I suspect an IBM thinkpad would have been noticably more.
You do get what you pay for. Macs are not overpriced so much as Apple doesn't really sell stripped down models.
And since at this point I can't use a stripped down PC for what I need, Macs are not really overpriced.
As for pricing on LCD screens, the ones Apple sell have a digital video style interface. Compare the prices on LCD screens that have DVI interfaces instead of just SVGA interfaces on them and you will find Apples screen prices while a tad high are not so out of line as people think they are. [Yes, I believe we're about to see Apple drop the prices on the LCD screens. Probably with the next PowerMac announcement.]
When I bought my PowerBook 8 months ago, I took at look at similar Laptops from Toshiba and Dell. At $3800 (list) for a then full blowd TiBook 800 w/1GB ram, it was within a couple of hundred dollars of a similarly equipped laptop from those companies. I suspect an IBM thinkpad would have been noticably more.
You do get what you pay for. Macs are not overpriced so much as Apple doesn't really sell stripped down models.
And since at this point I can't use a stripped down PC for what I need, Macs are not really overpriced.
As for pricing on LCD screens, the ones Apple sell have a digital video style interface. Compare the prices on LCD screens that have DVI interfaces instead of just SVGA interfaces on them and you will find Apples screen prices while a tad high are not so out of line as people think they are. [Yes, I believe we're about to see Apple drop the prices on the LCD screens. Probably with the next PowerMac announcement.]
