What do you say when your PC loving friends.....

Discussion in 'Buying Tips and Advice' started by jc0481, Jun 9, 2006.

  1. jc0481 macrumors regular

    Mar 16, 2005
    say well with a mac you can't upgrade it? Some of my more technical knowledgeable know about the powermac or in the future Mac Pro they like it but think it is so expensive. They tell me I can build my own computer for less than a $1,000. I have a hard time responding back, I would say this would be the number one grudge against the Mac. Not only from friends but people I meet day in and day out. How would you fight back with this misconception? Hope someone can help. Thanks.
  2. medea macrumors 68030


    Aug 4, 2002
    Madison, Wi
    the problem with that statement is that you can upgrade macs. people upgrade their powermacs all the time, there are several topics going on how the mac mini will kick ass when you upgrade to a merom chip, you can upgrade the hard drive quite easily in the new macbook etc. now with the iMacs there are definitely limitations, but to make a blanket statement that macs are not upgradeable is simply false.

    Also, it doesn't matter how cheap of a pc you can build if it still runs windows....

    Tell them to stick that in their pipe!
  3. jsw Moderator emeritus


    Mar 16, 2004
    Andover, MA
    Well, aside from the motherboard, you can upgrade basically the same things in a Mac as in a PC - RAM, disk, optical drives, cards in slots, etc.

    Can you build one yourself for under $1000? No. But...

    Is a sub-$1000 PC quiet, though? No. My iMac is silent. Completely. My PowerBook is silent. So are my mini duo and my MBP. The PowerMac... well, not so much.

    Is a sub-$1000 PC attractive? No.

    Is a sub-$1000 PC going to run OS X? No. And that doesn't matter, then no argument will persuade them.

    Does the sub-$1000 PC come with a full suite of software? No.

    Do chicks dig sub-$1000 PC's? No.

    Basically, there are those who will drive the cheapest piece-of-junk cars they can and be happy with it. Such people build sub-$1000 PCs and like them.

    Others prefer the nicer cars. Yes, understood, many can't afford them. But only a fool would pick a Hyundai over a BMW if they could have either.
  4. medea macrumors 68030


    Aug 4, 2002
    Madison, Wi
    Right on.

    Also when building a pc you have to factor in the cost of purchasing a copy of WinXP or whatever other OS you want to use. And then the box when still be susceptible to viruses.
  5. Timepass macrumors 65816

    Jan 4, 2005
    Minus the pro line the ablilty to upgrade macs is pretty crappy at best.

    So you can add ram. You can maybe replace the harddrive but never really add a new one.

    The biggest thing that hurts in lack of upgrading and one of the largest areas I see home computers be upgrauded is the complete lack of PCI slots and you cannt add stuff to them.

    Not being able to replace the graphic card sucks but the lack of PCI is huge.

    So now with out paying over $2000 you cannnt get a mac with much upgrade potentional. compared to you can pay less than 1k for a PC and have a lot of ablity to upgraded.
  6. plinden macrumors 68040


    Apr 8, 2004
    Leaving aside the build-your-own users (a vanishingly small percentage of PC users anyway), how many people actually upgrade their OEM boxes? For my last Dell, all I did was install more memory and a wifi card. You can easily add more memory to all Macs and wifi is standard.

    When it got to the stage where the hard drive was too small, I had the option of buying a new one, but by then it was time for a new computer anyway. The MacBooks allow you to easily change the hard drive. I should have got the 250GB hard drive option for my iMac, but no big deal ... I'll just get an external when I need it.

    I researched the possibility of upgrading the CPU in theDell, but by then none of the CPUs wouldn't fit my motherboard, so I would have had to buy a new one.

    So then take a look at what you get in the current Mac lineup - for 99% of users, the Macs have everything they will need in the next couple of years.

    Really, all the "upgrade" talk means - "what about new games? How'll I install a new video card?"
  7. jc0481 thread starter macrumors regular

    Mar 16, 2005
    Appreciate your help

    Wow I am happy. Thanks for the ammo I can use now with my pc loving friends. It's true a small percentage of people build their own computers. I just fought back the other day when a friend of mine said yeah macs are only good for graphics then I said yeah but graphics are the end result in ANY computer. He kept quiet. Thanks again!!
  8. Philberttheduck macrumors 6502a


    Mar 15, 2006
    HB, CA
    "do you have a good video card"

    i respond: i got a 256 vram bitch. tell me how many viruses are you prone to?

    LOL tech wars!
  9. idea_hamster macrumors 65816


    Jul 11, 2003
    NYC, or thereabouts
    Lot's of people are just parroting complaints that they've heard and have never actually run into any of the situations that they mention.

    So when they say "you can't upgrade," the answer is not only "actually, you can" but also "what was the last component you upgraded"? If you're not going to upgrade anything before you buy a new computer, then it doesn't matter.

    Also, the whole less-than-$1000 thing is a giant steaming pile. Whether you buy it or build it, a PC that you get for like $549 or whatever is going to stink like a skunk that crawled up the bung hole of another skunk. :mad:

    Now if they talk about how they need to run proprietary or legacy software, a favorite game that rules their lives, or Win-only stuff like "my job requires [Premier/AutoCAD/etc.]," that starts to sound like something more reasonable.

    I'll also include "I know Windows fine and I'm not interested in learning a new computer" -- while it's a sad fact, the switch is not all milk and mell.

    This is another giant rancid load. Fact is this: Macs aren't "good for graphics." They're good for graphic designers -- people who are interested in getting work done rather than spending all night figuring out what's wrong with their computers. And that makes them good for anyone.
  10. calculus Guest


    Dec 12, 2005
    My experience of 'PC users' is that they love having to poke around with them all the time. Can't understand it myself.
  11. Timepass macrumors 65816

    Jan 4, 2005
    There is a reason I refuse to ever build a PC with out at least a $1000 hardware bugget. Below that it is honestly pretty hard to beat dell. But that being said I can think of other reason on where mac suck because of there complete lack of ablitly to be upgraded.

    Mind you the reasoning falls in a smaller mark share. The Build your own market share is bigger than one might think. At school the home build rigs are a good 20-30% of the desktop rigs there. Mind you it is college so the know how is a lot higher but still the home built market is more than likely bigger than the Apple market right now so....

    But even that being said a lot of people enjoy upgrading and adding little things to there computer. I know on my desktop I enjoyed adding things to it and playing around with it. Many of those things you cannt do on a mac. Some of that stuff being putting in extra hard drives things like that.

    Since I built the computer 2 years ago I have added a fair ammount of stuff. the more recent one being wifi. I didnt added it until last month because I didnt have a really reason to do it so I put off spending the 60-70 bucks for the card. But before that I have added 4 more USB ports and a firewire port. Added a 2nd hard drive, A 2nd firewire port. Also added a 2nd either net port in my computer. I put it in there for an experment I want to try dealing with still having access to the dorm subnetwork while still having my own privet one but I needed a 2nd eithernet port to do that.

    Also for something I used to run with my Xbox required me the box to be plug directly into my computer and still having access to the internet (a router would not work for this).

    Plus I just enjoy opening up the computer from time to time to change stuff. I enjoy doing that. For the same opition on a mac I would have to of paid over $2000. For my tower I paid around $1500 and I did not have to pay a lot of extra money for power I didnt need or want just so I could have the ablility to do some of the stuff I enjoy (plus I enjoy games.) The increase cost for me to get a Mac desktop would of been over 1k more because even thoug hte power mac CPU was better the ram, and GPU both would of required being upgraded. Top it off i enjoy games.

    But the reason listed above are a large part of the reason I will never own an apple desktop. I think they are overprice underpower computers.
    How ever I think there laptops are great and pretty competetily priced.
  12. EricNau Moderator emeritus


    Apr 27, 2005
    San Francisco, CA
  13. Jiddick ExRex macrumors 65816

    Jiddick ExRex

    May 14, 2006
    Roskilde, DK
    Most of my friends use the statement: the mac is limited due to the lack of programs it cannot run but xp can.

    When I tell them that that is utter ********, they correct it to: oh yeah I meant most games.
    NO **** BUT I DON'T USE IT FOR GAMES YOU COMMIE! That's why I have a PC with a 6600 GT asswipe (yes I know boot camp bla bla but truth is the x1600 is mediocre at the very least).
    It's like people rant about stuff they don't know jack about and I feel like ripping off their little heads and peeing in their mouths when they do that.

    On a different note, I have built my own share of cheap 'upgradable' pc's in my time and guess what? When it was time to upgrade, I needed to buy a new mobo, new cpu and new graphics card = a new computer anyway because technology is moving faster and faster. Right now I need to do it again because I am stuck with an AGP mobo and I need some more juice with PCI-e to get a better graphics card. The only thing I have ever upgraded (instead of buying all new) to tell you the truth has been:
    (yes you guessed it) RAM and HD. :)

    Switching to mac has finally made me realise the potentiel of buying expensive stuff to get you to last longer and better.
  14. risc macrumors 68030


    Jul 23, 2004
    Melbourne, Australia
    I was about to say the same thing. The reality is if you buy a good PC by the time it has come to upgrade it everything has changed. Lets look at a PC from 2 years ago if you upgraded now you would need to replace everything. AGP has gone PCIe. DDR RAM has gone DDR2. PATA and SATA HDD are now SATA 2, CPUs are now dual core and need a new mainboard, etc, etc, etc... and by the end of the year everything has gone 64 bit and it starts again.
  15. Timepass macrumors 65816

    Jan 4, 2005

    you are a little wrong on that. Not everything has switch over to DDR2. AMD chips for the most part of using DDR. Oh and AMD has been 64 bit for seveal years now. Since around the time the G5 chips started coming out.
    (the reason AMD has been advoiding going DDR2 is because it would require a huge change to their CPU since the memory controler is built into it. Even with the lack of DDR2 they still are out doing intel in that area just because the integrated memory control is so much faster than intel FSB. a good example is off my AMD64 3000+ the fasted fsb from Intel was only about 1ghz. Compared to my AMD equilent speed of 1.6GHZ FSB because it was integrated into the CPU.

    Socket 939 was out 2 years ago in heavy force and socket 939 supports almost all the dual core AMD chips. AMD2 is coming out but only for the high end chips so 939 is still a very valid core.
    SATA2 is an easy problem to get around. Just requires a controler PCI card and that problem solved.

    Of that list the only thing that really hurts is PCIe. But even saying that there are very few graphic cards out there that dont have an AGP verson of them as well and the diffence in power of those cards is small so you can upgrade teh graphic card just fine.
  16. FFTT macrumors 68030


    Apr 17, 2004
    A Stoned Throw From Ground Zero
    It can be difficult to argue with someone that uses the P/C's are cheaper mentality and with those who earn their living keeping Windows running.

    Even so, I generally use the Chevy-Toyota total cost of ownership comparison.

    I wouldn't worry about your P/C loving associates so much.

    What do YOU need a computer to do for you? That's much more important.

    What is your primary work application?
    MS Office, Adobe, 3D, Audio Recording, Video, Photography graphic design, architectural?

    Are you buying a computer to generate income or more interested
    in recreation?

    How much can you afford to spend over a 3-4 year period?

    If you are considering a new Mac Pro Tower, I can only assume that you NEED a powerful workstation.
  17. Chundles macrumors G4


    Jul 4, 2005
    Best way to convince PC users:

    Turn off your firewall and surf some of the internet's more "risqué" sites. Then get them to do the same with firewall/virus protection turned off.

    Come back one week later and see whose machine still works.
  18. risc macrumors 68030


    Jul 23, 2004
    Melbourne, Australia
    There are always going to be people that will upgrade their PCs on their own but 90% of PC users buy them off the shelf when it comes time to upgrade that machine like I said everything will have changed. The reality is that most people DON'T upgrade their computers they just buy new ones. Also all of your arguments seem to be based on AMD how much of the x86 market do AMD actually have? Let us say they have 25% (and that would be very generous) that leaves 75% of the market using Intel and Intel change their hardware at an amazing rate. I work with x86 and x86_64 servers (and workstations) and the changes from Intel even in the last 2 years have been incredible. Not to take anything away from AMD I love the Opteron it will be interesting to see how it performs compared to the Woodcrest.
  19. xparaparafreakx macrumors 65816

    Jul 29, 2005
    When they say I cant watch anime and I open front row and watch it in front of them.

    Also by this week I should be able to say to PC loving friends

    "so is YOUR computer Vista ready beacuse my is currently running it"
  20. ddrueckhammer macrumors 65816


    Aug 8, 2004
    America's Wang
    One thing nobody else has mentioned is resale value....

    When your two-year-old homemade computer is getting kinda slow you only have the option of upgrading it. I doubt if anyone would buy it through Ebay, Craiglist, or the paper. (If they do then you won't get much) Also, two year old Dells, HPs, Gateways etc don't have great resale returns.

    I used my 12" Powerbook for 2 years and sold it for 75% of its purchase price. Recently, I wanted to get a Lombard/Pismo, or clamshell iBook for surfing the net but just couldn't bring myself to pay what they are going for on Ebay...

    If you have a Mac, don't bother upgrading (at least expensive parts like Processors). Just sell it for most of what you paid for it and use the funds to get a new computer. As we switch to Intel, Macs may devaluate faster but they may not because they are still useful irregardless of what processor they have. I imagine your PC toting friends would kill to be able to get the majority of what they paid for their Dell two years later....
  21. ahunter3 macrumors 6502

    Oct 15, 2003
    I'm typing this on a WallStreet. (PowerBook G3 Series '98). I bought it with an 8 GB HD, 300 MHz G3 processor, 128 MB RAM, DVD-ROM drive, single-screen / mirrored display support (but no extended desktop support), ADB, classic Mac serial port, SCSI out, S-video out, infrared, audio-in, audio-out, 2 CardBus cards.

    It now has, thanks to various upgrades:

    • 500 MHz G4 processor
    • 512 MB RAM
    • dual internal 60 GB 7200 RPM hard drives [total 120 GB]
    • higher quality screen hinges
    • internal 24x CD-RW drive (swaps with DVD-ROM as need be)

    It also has, courtesy of CardBus, any two of these simultaneously:

    • USB (I've got a nice Logitech 2-button mouse hooked up to it now, and inkjet printer)

    • extended desktop, with a 20-inch Sony Trinitron adding majestically to my screen real estate at work and a smaller one at home.

    • FireWire

    • Airport

    ...and as you tally up all the stuff that it has going for it now, you notice what an impressive array of capabilities it started out with. A good starting point means less need to upgrade. Show me an 8 year old PC laptop (upgraded or otherwise) with half a GB of RAM, fast dual internal hard disks, 120 GB storage space, dual display support, SCSI, FireWire, USB, serial port, classic PC mouse &/or keyboard port, S-video out, ability to digitize analog sound-in, and the ability to run XP gracefully! (I'm in latter-era Panther on this thing)
  22. dornoforpyros macrumors 68040


    Oct 19, 2004
    Calgary, AB

    I've told my mother 100's of times that there is M$ Office for Mac and the files are exactly the same. Yet it's always her first argument about why she's hesitant to get one.
  23. Dr_Maybe macrumors 6502


    Sep 17, 2003
    South America
    How to upgrade an iMac/macmini/mac laptop: sell it and buy a new one.

    But that's not necesary to add RAM, new harddisk, add more harddrives with firewire.

    If that doesn't work, tell them most PCs are ugly, noisy and can't run OS X (officially).
  24. 7on macrumors 601


    Nov 9, 2003
    Dress Rosa
    I built a PC once. Never upgraded it. Why? because there were always bottle necks. I couldn't upgrade the proc unless I got a new Mobo, upgrading the GPU would have been held back by my CPU and so on. I like my Mac because when I'm done with it I can sell it and still get a decent wad of $$$ out of it. In fact I know some people who constantly upgrade their macs when new models come out only loosing $100-$200 each time. That's cheaper than any PC upgrade (other than RAM) that I can think of. I don't do it because it's not my cup o tea.
  25. wxboss macrumors member


    May 13, 2006
    Jax, FL
    Owning a Mac means never having to post a "Highjack This" log.

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