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IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Well, the original poster asked for advice here, didn't he? And I may also be "some guy" to him, but I have no more than an academic interest in whether he buys the machine, so he can reasonably expect that what I'm telling him is impartial... or at the very least, much more impartial than anything the seller tells him, don't you think?

It's not a question of partiality or impartiality. Even by your theory, the market value of this PowerBook should exceed the apparent $450.00 average resale price found on Ebay because buyers there recognize the risk involved in buying this way. So those prices should be lower than market price, not higher. Not that I entirely accept your theory. I challenge you to produce a better way of setting market values than an auction. This tells you what people are actually willing to pay for a given item. If that's not market value, then I don't know what it is.

I also would not presume to call someone's desire to purchase a product "silly" or "stupid." For one, he may only have $450.00 to spend. For another, he may really like the 12" form factor, which Apple hasn't seen fit to duplicate in any current Mac model.

Buying anything used is a risk, as I'm sure most people well know. Beyond that, I think you should set your personal value judgments aside.
 

DannySmurf

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2005
628
0
It's not a question of partiality or impartiality. Even by your theory, the market value of this PowerBook should exceed the apparent $450.00 average resale price found on Ebay because buyers there recognize the risk involved in buying this way. So those prices should be lower than market price, not higher. Not that I entirely accept your theory. I challenge you to produce a better way of setting market values than an auction. This tells you what people are actually willing to pay for a given item. If that's not market value, then I don't know what it is.

I also would not presume to call someone's desire to purchase a product "silly" or "stupid." For one, he may only have $450.00 to spend. For another, he may really like the 12" form factor, which Apple hasn't seen fit to duplicate in any current Mac model.

Buying anything used is a risk, as I'm sure most people well know. Beyond that, I think you should set your personal value judgments aside.

Well first, I'm not saying that his desire to buy the computer is either silly or stupid; not at all. Again, he did ask whether $460 is a good price for that computer. My answer is: No, not only do I think that's a bad price for that machine, I think it would be silly to pay that much for something that old. Normally I would agree with you about setting value judgments aside, but a value judgment is precisely what the original poster asked for in this case.

But setting that aside, I will give you my unpassionate, brief economic analysis of this transaction, for your information and enjoyment.

eBay, IN THIS COMPARISON, is the prime seller, not the marginal one. So no, the price on eBay should not be higher according to my theory; rather, the price offered by the private seller (which, in this comparison, is the sketchier seller) should be lower. eBay is not a reliable place to buy electronics compared to Best Buy (for example); rather, when compared against the "some guy who wants to sell me his computer" option, eBay is simply less risky. So the market price ($450) is not necessarily indicative of the products overall value when sold by a more risky seller.

About market value: I did not say that $450 was not the market value, as you seem to have assumed. Clearly, it is. What I said was, just because that's the price on eBay, that does not actually mean that the machine is worth that much. Market price is clearly what people are willing to pay, but that does not necessarily equal actual value. The price of these machines may simply be a factor of scarcity, the same way that house prices in some desirable parts of the world (Vancouver or Calgary, for example) are a result of the scarcity of available living space, and house prices in other parts of the world (Florida) are a result of a glut of repossessions, rather than any of these prices being based on the houses' actual value.

This is not a concern for the original poster, since he has a captive seller. The seller could sell his machine on eBay for that same price, but he has chosen (for whatever reason) to try to sell to the original poster. If I were a buyer, the seller's choice here would probably give me some pause, particularly considering all the software he appears to be offering with the machine (which, in theory, should fetch a much higher-than-market price). But excluding that potential problem, the fact that the original poster has a captive seller gives him bargaining power, because scarcity is now on the original poster's side. The seller wants to sell specifically to him, and has a machine that he seems to need to be rid of in the shortest possible time, given he's selling machine+software at the same rate as the market price for machine alone.

So in this transaction, cash is scarce; the machine is not. Bargaining power belongs to the side with the scarcer resource (in this case, the buyer) The seller would have to go to trouble to find another private buyer (not wanting to sell on the open market), which would indirectly cost him money (as would changing his mind and selling on the open market). Couple the desire to get the largest amount of money possible from the buyer that's currently on the hook with the fact that any private buyer the seller chooses automatically has the scarcity power in this equation, and the result is that the buyer would most likely be able to force the seller to sell for a lower price than the initial offer.

Conclusion: $460 for THIS machine is a bad price. The original poster can almost certainly have it for less. Given that the seller does not want to pay commissions or spend the time selling on the open market, and likely does not want to go hunting for another private buyer (with associated direct and indirect costs), the absolute highest price that the buyer should consider paying for this machine is:

market price - eBay commission/listing fee - depreciation since the start of the transaction

If the seller is not willing to sell for less than the price that equation results in, the buyer could still buy the machine on eBay for $450, and would be no worse off. So, there is no risk to the buyer in trying to get a lower price from THIS seller, and consequently, he should not pay THIS seller $460 for this machine.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
You may be willing to pay top dollar for something you've never seen and can't verify from someone you don't know. If so, that's your damage; I think that's stupidity.

I also happen to think (and ALL of our thoughts on the price of the machine are relevant, since the original poster did, in fact, ASK US whether we thought it was a good deal) that paying $460 for a computer that old and slow is silly, regardless of what the masses on eBay think.

Well first, I'm not saying that his desire to buy the computer is either silly or stupid; not at all.

Pretty much had to stop reading there. Sorry.
 

DannySmurf

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2005
628
0
Pretty much had to stop reading there. Sorry.

If you say so. I don't understand how "desire to purchase the computer" and "willingness to pay $460" and "willingness to buy something you can't see" are the same thing for you. Clearly, he has desire but not necessarily either willingness, since he asked for opinions....

But if you're not willing to entertain someone else's opinions, I understand. There's a lot of that on the Internet. ;)
 

DannySmurf

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2005
628
0
I am, but direct contradictions don't work for me.

For me either. But since there isn't actually a contradiction here, I'll infer the real reason from your abrupt end to the conversation after a lengthy analysis-type post. :)

No worries about that. Like I said, my interest is academic. If you "just don't want to talk about it any more," that's fine. I won't.
 

DannySmurf

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2005
628
0
Oh yeah, all pirated. There is no way any of that is legit.

Well, that's not necessarily true. It's highly unlikely that the seller would offer that machine with all of that software on disk for $460, but he may be desperate to get rid of it all (if he's switching to Windows, for example), so let's give the benefit of the doubt.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
For me either. But since there isn't actually a contradiction here, I'll infer the real reason from your abrupt end to the conversation after a lengthy analysis-type post. :)

No worries about that. Like I said, my interest is academic. If you "just don't want to talk about it any more," that's fine. I won't.

No, that's not it. Sorry if I sounded dismissive, but I think you were completely missing the point. The OP was not asking us whether he should buy an older PowerBook, but whether the price he'd been offered it at was fair. Based on what other similar Macs are being sold for at this time, the offered price does appear to be in the ballpark. Whether you'd buy it at that price or any price at all is completely immaterial to the question which was asked. That's why I wasn't interested in replying to your lengthy analysis. And for the record, I don't care for responses that characterize other people's choices as silly or stupid. That isn't advice, it's an insult.
 

DannySmurf

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2005
628
0
No, that's not it. Sorry if I sounded dismissive, but I think you were completely missing the point. The OP was not asking us whether he should buy an older PowerBook, but whether the price he'd been offered it at was fair.

k, please go back and actually read his post. That is not what he asked. His exact words were "let me know if this is a good deal or not." He was not asking whether the price was fair; that is a different question, and one which, if I recall correctly, I did not attempt to answer.

For the record, the answer to that is yes, it probably is a fair price. But he was asking if the computer was a good deal. So no, whether I (or anyone) would buy it at that price is not immaterial, since while we all may have a similar idea of what a "fair" price for the machine is, what each person here considers a GOOD price is entirely subjective, and makes my earlier comments entirely relevant to the discussion, since for it to be a "good" price, it would be implied that he could not get a better price for the same machine, which is exactly what my lengthy post was about.

And for the record, I don't care for responses that characterize other people's choices as silly or stupid. That isn't advice, it's an insult.

And I don't believe in sugar-coating my answers to other people's questions, just to save their tender feelings. A lot of people need a swift kick in the arse these days, and if they're considering something I think is stupid, I have absolutely no compunction about pointing that out.

For your own record, I was actually more interested in the discussion going on than the actual result (since the original poster has likely already made his decision, this discussion was academic anyway), and I think it's unfortunate that you decided to become petty about a couple of offhand (and perhaps harsh, but much more importantly, HONEST) comments. If you think I was really off the mark, that's fine. I would have been interested to hear your specific thoughts about it, but instead you just shut down the conversation. Personally, I think it's sad when that happens. It's quite difficult to find real, enjoyable conversation with someone intelligent on the Internet. A bit of well-meant advice? Lighten up a little and try and enjoy the conversation. Bickering leads to heart attacks.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
You give people a "swift kick in the arse" when it suits you, and don't concern yourself with anyone's "tenter feelings," but you characterize someone who calls you on it "petty" and needing to "lighten up." Get real, my friend. You can't play both sides of the street like that and not expect anyone to notice.
 

DannySmurf

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2005
628
0
You give people a "swift kick in the arse" when it suits you, and don't concern yourself with anyone's "tenter feelings," but you characterize someone who calls you on it "petty" and needing to "lighten up." Get real, my friend. You can't play both sides of the street like that and not expect anyone to notice.

Dude, the petty was not calling me on it. The petty was "taking your ball and going home" because you didn't like what I had to say. I said lighten up because you seem to be taking this far too seriously, not because you've hurt my feelings (you're some guy on the Internet; it's unlikely you'd be capable of actually saying something that would hurt my feelings or anything like that).

Are you reading what I'm posting? Or just seeing what you want to see? By your comments, you seem to just be picking out the words you don't like and attaching whatever meaning to them that YOU want, rather than actually paying attention to what I'm saying. That being the case, it seems rather pointless to continue this.
 
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