What OWC needs to make next...

[SpacemanSpiffed]

Preface: I've been pondering what 2018 mini config to get as we're going to starting on the OSX port of our next product (non-game) in about a month. In the mean time, I've been dealing with graphics on our latest game. That set the stage for today when....

I was upgrading another Zotac Magnus system (for our multiplayer setup), which is a pretty small PC (about 80% larger than the Mini by volume - see here for Magnus vs Mini comparison ), but has a fairly powerful dedicated GPU (GTX 1070, MXM 3.0b form factor).

I found myself thinking about how much smaller this whole Windows PC was than any of the eGPU enclosures for the Mini I had been looking at (the Sonnet Puck just occurred to me as I am writing this)/ I just really hate the idea the our next mini setup is likely going to a collection of boxes - Mini, eGPU, and most likely an external thunderbolt NVMe enclosure. And then it hit me...

OWC could make a new version of the MiniStack specifically for the 2018 Mini and fit both an MXM card, a NVMe drive (2280), and probably the power supply internally (since they seem to be ok with making their own as they did in the OWC Drive Dock ) and all the needed cooling into the MiniStack shell (now in Space Grey of course). It would be tight, but looking at the Magnus GPU+cooling setup, it's definitely doable. It would need dual thunderbolt cables, using 2 of the Mini's 4 USB-C (ones with 40GB/s links), but they could include short versions sized specifically for the Mini sitting on top of the unit.

Would that not be a pretty desirable expansion setup while keeping things "mini"?

The RX 560/570 and 580 are already available as MXM cards, as are thunderbolt to NVMe chipsets.

Don't get me wrong, I like that we have the eGPU options we got already, but all the ones I see just dwarf the mini, and I think enough of us would like to keep the smaller aesthetics while having the option to upgrade storage and GPU post purchase.

 

[dia3olik]

This would be really nice indeed...and somewhat future proof...

I'd also like it to have an oversized cooling system with copper heatsink and heatpipes
for the NVMe and MXM card...all cooled by very low noise 92 or 120 fan(s)...ha!

 

[saulinpa]

Great idea with the MXM. That sounds like how to implement one of the predictions for the new modular Mac Pro.

 

[pl1984]

Don't get me wrong, I like that we have the eGPU options we got already, but the all the ones I see just dwarf the mini, and I think enough of us would like to keep the smaller aesthetics while having the option to upgrade storage and GPU post purchase.

I've made comments along these lines in this forum many times. The Mini, when paired with common external devices, consumes as much desk space as a small to medium sized tower with the downside of decreased performance / extra cabling / power connections.

 

[SpacemanSpiffed]

This would be really nice indeed...and somewhat future proof...

I'd also like it to have an oversized cooling system with copper heatsink and heatpipes
for the NVMe and MXM card...all cooled by very low noise 92 or 120 fan(s)...ha!

Exactly - it would give the user the option to swap out the external NVMe drive at a later date if needed and avoid "I didn't initial purchase enough" regret. As for cooling, they wouldn't even need to use that large of a fan to keep it cool and quiet. This frame from a EN1070 upgrade video shows the copper heatsink they use, which cools both the GPU and CPU, and there is one fan for each. A 2018 eGPU MiniStack would only need to cool the MXM GPU and probably offer something for the NVMe drive, which would be less than a CPU heat-wise. That would let the hot air be vented out the back or side, so stacking the Mini on top wouldn't be a problem.

I've made comments along these lines in this forum many times. The Mini, when paired with common external devices, consumes as much desk space as a small to medium sized tower with the downside of decreased performance / extra cabling / power connections.

Again, Exactly! I feel like it's the Emperor's New Clothes with every eGPU enclosure that's rolled out - ohhhs and ahhs but no one saying out loud "but it's many times larger than the Mini".

 

[F-Train]

Again, Exactly! I feel like it's the Emperor's New Clothes with every eGPU enclosure that's rolled out - ohhhs and ahhs but no one saying out loud "but it's many times larger than the Mini".

I don't know what enclosures you're talking about, but Asus's XG Station Pro is not "many times larger than the mini", or anywhere close to that. As for external drives, I can fit two Samsung T5 drives in a shirt pocket.

All of which comes in handy when, believe it or not, I transport the mini from one place to another.

 

[pl1984]

I don't know what enclosures you're talking about, but Asus's XG Station Pro is not "many times larger than the mini", or anywhere close to that. As for external drives, I can fit two Samsung T5 drives in a shirt pocket.

All of which comes in handy when, believe it or not, I transport the mini from one place to another.

The combined desk space used by the Mini and XG Station Pro consumes 121 sq/in whereas my Z440 consumes 116 sq/in. That assumes there is no wasted space. Likewise the Z440 doesn't have an external power brick requirement like the XG Station Pro does. I'll grant you the Z440 is 9" taller than the XG Station Pro but it doesn't appear the Mini + eGPU solutions save much, if any, desk space.

 

[F-Train]

The combined desk space used by the Mini and XG Station Pro consumes 121 sq/in whereas my Z440 consumes 116 sq/in.

First, I wasn't talking to you. Secondly, I told you over two months ago that I have no interest in talking with you.

The above sentence not only doesn't change my mind, it reinforces my decision. If you want to spend your time getting into a discussion over five square inches, which means that you actually spent time figuring out this five square inch difference, and then decided to write a post about it, find somebody else. It ain't going to be me.

 

[harriska2]

First, I wasn't talking to you. Secondly, I told you over two months ago that I have no interest in talking with you.

The above sentence not only doesn't change my mind, it reinforces my decision. If you want to spend your time getting into a discussion over five square inches, which means that you actually spent time figuring out this five square inch difference, and then decided to write a post about it, find somebody else. It ain't going to be me.

Ignore is your friend

 

[StellarVixen]

I didn’t even know that this actually exists.


Learn something new every day. What’s the performance compared to usual PCIe GPU? Same?

 

[Flabasha]

Yeah, the Sonnet Breakaway Puck is pretty much tailored for this... though I'd love a Vega 16/20 version of it.

 

[Synchro3]

I'd prefer a bigger box where one can just slide in the Mac Mini.

Like a big docking station, with one or two internal M.2 and two internal SATA connectors, a PCI-E slot for one big GPU (normal eGPU functionality), and a PSU for the whole thing. BluRay/DVD drive optional.

One Thunderbolt controller of the Mac Mini will be totally claimed by the eGPU, so let's say the box will have two external Thunderbolt ports, some USB ports and optical S/PDIF. The HDMI, Ethernet and the two USB ports of the Mac Mini are led out 1: 1.

And the whole thing in the Mac Mini Design...

If this product would be released: Shut up an take my money!

 

[pl1984]

First, I wasn't talking to you. Secondly, I told you over two months ago that I have no interest in talking with you.

The above sentence not only doesn't change my mind, it reinforces my decision. If you want to spend your time getting into a discussion over five square inches, which means that you actually spent time figuring out this five square inch difference, and then decided to write a post about it, find somebody else. It ain't going to be me.

Yet here you are responding to me I don't care if you were talking to me or not...I'm going to respond to any post I choose to do so and I don't need your permission to do it. You responded to someone who was responding to my post so it is quite appropriate that I would respond to you. You interjected yourself into our discussion, not the other way around.

As for calculating the space consumed it took all of five minutes. Less time then it took you to respond to me.

My post was not an attempt to change your pr anyone else's mind. You have a solution that works for you and it's not my place to say it's not the correct solution for you I'm merely commenting about a weakness I see in Apple's all external expansion. You're free to ignore it if it bothers you.
[doublepost=1545988575][/doublepost]

I didn’t even know that this actually exists.


Learn something new every day. What’s the performance compared to usual PCIe GPU? Same?

One user posted benchmarks using the same GPU with his new Mini (via eGPU) and his Mac Pro. The results were mixed with the Mac Pro outperforming the eGPU solution in a number of cases and the Mini in others. I found those results interesting given the Mac Pro is based on 10 year old technology.

 

[StellarVixen]

Yet here you are responding to me I don't care if you were talking to me or not...I'm going to respond to any post I choose to do so and I don't need your permission to do so.

As for calculating the space consumed it took all of five minutes. Less time then it took you to respond to me.

My post was not an attempt to change your pr anyone else's mind. You have a solution that works for you and it's not my place to say it's not the correct solution for you I'm merely commenting about a weakness I see in Apple's all external expansion. You're free to ignore it if it bothers you.
[doublepost=1545988575][/doublepost]
One user posted benchmarks using the same GPU with his new Mini (via eGPU) and his Mac Pro. The results were mixed with the Mac Pro outperforming the eGPU solution in a number of cases and the Mini in others. I found those results interesting given the Mac Pro is based on 10 year old technology.

No, no, I was talking about MXM cards. I know about usual eGPU.

 

[saulinpa]

Looks like Apple has used MXM cards in the iMac so should be no big deal for anyone. Even though it started over 10 years ago the current standard allows up to 200w.

Really, though, it seems like a good idea that has been abondoned.

 

[toke lahti]

Somebody should make a good looking new version of that old Apple ad about cable clutter between a desktop Dell and a desktop mac.
New flashy mini + external storage + eGPU + dongles + cables.
And spread that to all possible social media platforms.

 

[SpacemanSpiffed]

I don't know what enclosures you're talking about, but Asus's XG Station Pro is not "many times larger than the mini", or anywhere close to that. As for external drives, I can fit two Samsung T5 drives in a shirt pocket.

My post was not an attempt to change your pr anyone else's mind. You have a solution that works for you and it's not my place to say it's not the correct solution for you I'm merely commenting about a weakness I see in Apple's all external expansion.

Hey, I'm not trying cause an argument to break out here. Different people want different things when it comes to form factor, GPU, etc. I'm already on record as really valuing tiny/small footprint and quiet and not needing the absolute cutting edge GPU, and my preferences are not everyone elses.

I'm thinking in terms of volume and cable clutter, as you can see on part of my desktop here which has a tight but minimalist setup with 2 computers (i7-5775 & i7-7700T) tucked under a single monitor. (there are actually 4 computers sharing that monitor+keyboard/mouse now)

Here's a list of some of the Mini's eGPU options, and their size/volumes:

(Code used to simulate table, all measurements in mm)

Device               Width   Depth   Height   Volume
Mac mini              196     196      36      1.38L
Razor Core X          168     374     230     14.45L
Sonnet Breakway Box   185     240     202      8.96L
Mantiz MZ-02          163     330     215     11.56L
Blackmagtic eGPU      177     177     295      9.24L
Sonnet Breakaway Puck 153     130      51      1.01L
Asus XG Station Pro   275     107     205      6.03L + Power Supply

So with the exception of the Sonnet Puck, every eGPU is at least 4x the volume of the Mini, with the Razor Core being 10x the volume... So I think my "many times larger" comment holds up.

Anyway, my thought was to take advantage of being able to stack the Mini and have a 2-in-1 device (eGPU + NVMe SSD), not to start a flamewar.

I didn’t even know that this actually exists.

Learn something new every day. What’s the performance compared to usual PCIe GPU? Same?

The performance of the MXM versions of various GPUs is usually close to that of their dekstop versions, but that totally depends on the specific model.

In the case of the GTX 1060, the MXM version is the exact same chip as the desktop GTX 1060, same number of CUDA cores, etc, but with lower boost clocks, and it benchmarks at about 92-96% of the (standard) desktop version. In the case of the MXM version of GTX 1070, the chip used actually has additional working SM units compared to the desktop card, so it has more CUDA cores to offset lower base clock rates to get about-ish the same performance. I'm not sure about the AMD MXM GPUs but I would suspect a similar story.

 

[StellarVixen]

The performance of the MXM versions of various GPUs is usually close to that of their dekstop versions, but that totally depends on the specific model.

In the case of the GTX 1060, the MXM version is the exact same chip as the desktop GTX 1060, same number of CUDA cores, etc, but with lower boost clocks, and it benchmarks at about 92-96% of the (standard) desktop version. In the case of the MXM version of GTX 1070, the chip used actually has additional working SM units compared to the desktop card, so it has more CUDA cores to offset lower base clock rates to get about-ish the same performance. I'm not sure about the AMD MXM GPUs but I would suspect a similar story.

Very nicely explained, thank you very much.

 

[SpacemanSpiffed]

Very nicely explained, thank you very much.

I think it's usually the case with these huge chips are normally pushed such that the last 10% or so of clock speed causes 20+% of the heat (rising on some sort of exponential curve, you get the idea), so backing off just a bit on the clocks is a cheap win for cooling/TDP.

 

[scottsjack]

My new mini i7 is paired with an OWC Thunderbay 6. A version of that Thunderbay box with only four hard drive slots and one PCI slot for a GPU would be fantastic. I would probably get one.

 

[SpacemanSpiffed]

My new mini i7 is paired with an OWC Thunderbay 6. A version of that Thunderbay box with only four hard drive slots and one PCI slot for a GPU would be fantastic. I would probably get one.

I think that given the two biggest expansion items people seem to want for the Mini are an eGPU and storage expansion (at non-Apple prices) it makes sense to make 2-in-1 boxes that do both. And I suspect there is a market for more than one size and configuration of such devices.

 

[pl1984]

Hey, I'm not trying cause an argument to break out here. Different people want different things when it comes to form factor, GPU, etc. I'm already on record as really valuing tiny/small footprint and quiet and not needing the absolute cutting edge GPU, and my preferences are not everyone elses.

His issue with me is unrelated to your comments, it goes back to when we were discussing benchmarks regarding the Mini and my Mac Pros. He was offended at a comment I made and can't seem to let it go. Because of this he appears to be under the impression every comment I make to a post of his is intended to rile him up when I'm merely just engaging in discussion.

I'm thinking in terms of volume and cable clutter, as you can see on part of my desktop here which has a tight but minimalist setup with 2 computers (i7-5775 & i7-7700T) tucked under a single monitor. (there are actually 4 computers sharing that monitor+keyboard/mouse now)

Here's a list of some of the Mini's eGPU options, and their size/volumes:

(Code used to simulate table, all measurements in mm)

Device               Width   Depth   Height   Volume
Mac mini              196     196      36      1.38L
Razor Core X          168     374     230     14.45L
Sonnet Breakway Box   185     240     202      8.96L
Mantiz MZ-02          163     330     215     11.56L
Blackmagtic eGPU      177     177     295      9.24L
Sonnet Breakaway Puck 153     130      51      1.01L
Asus XG Station Pro   275     107     205      6.03L + Power Supply

So with the exception of the Sonnet Puck, every eGPU is at least 4x the volume of the Mini, with the Razor Core being 10x the volume... So I think my "many times larger" comment holds up.

Anyway, my thought was to take advantage of being able to stack the Mini and have a 2-in-1 device (eGPU + NVMe SSD), not to start a flamewar.

Your comment is 100% accurate despite the fact one individual appears to be overly defensive about their computer selection. The Mini, coupled with any number of external devices, consumes a similar amount of desk space as that of a small to medium sized tower. I use my Z440 as an example because it's what I have and what I can relate to. But there are any number of PC based form factors which are larger than the Mini (itself) but consume less desk space than a Mini with external GPU solution. IMO such a configuration is appropriate for laptops and occasionally a Mini configuration. But it should not be the solution for Mac users who want a desktop system with a capable GPU. Unfortunately Apple offers nothing but such a solution which, IMO, is a huge weakness in the Mac product line.

 

[saulinpa]

So the obvious solution is what was mentioned earlier. An expansion box that stacks with the mini. Not what anyone is currently offering.

 

[turbineseaplane]

It's a very good idea OP
Honestly, this is sort of a direction Apple could (perhaps should?) take with a modular Mac Pro Mini type of thing.