What REALLY is the difference between FirePro and consumer?

[Cubemmal]

Yeah, going to be interesting how Apple adds value to these cards.

There is going to have to be SOMETHING they can point at and claim is "better" than the 7870/7970 that they share OpenGl drivers with.

This is what I'm really wondering. At the moment I don't see the value in the nMP. FirePro doesn't impress me, these are old GPU's with Apple software, there's precious little "pro" about them as far as I can tell. In my experience Apple is very slow to develop in the driver realm - it takes them forever to fix bugs for example.

Apple, I'm looking for a reason to like the new Mac Pro, what is it?

 

[MacVidCards]

This is what I'm really wondering. At the moment I don't see the value in the nMP. FirePro doesn't impress me, these are old GPU's with Apple software, there's precious little "pro" about them as far as I can tell. In my experience Apple is very slow to develop in the driver realm - it takes them forever to fix bugs for example.

Apple, I'm looking for a reason to like the new Mac Pro, what is it?

I'm looking forward to finding out what they meant with "blowing away limitation after limitation".

It seems like they told the pesky engineers to stop limiting the designers who wanted more swoopiness.

 

[Cubemmal]

I'm looking forward to finding out what they meant with "blowing away limitation after limitation".

It seems like they told the pesky engineers to stop limiting the designers who wanted more swoopiness.

Yeah because what I see doesn't add up. OK it's innovative, I'm impressed with the reported noise and power idle, I'm sure the PCIe FLASH will be fast, but it's expensive and not upgradable (except some piddly RAM). Maybe they plumb for CrossFire, and combined with system performance makes it blazing fast, making up for the old GPU's?

I have a 7950 in my Mac Pro that costs $200 on the PC, the D300 is one step behind that I understand, and only has 2GB VRAM. I don't see how Apple can make this a value proposition.

 

[haravikk]

I'm looking forward to finding out what they meant with "blowing away limitation after limitation".

I'm pretty sure they mean limitations of the previous generation, which is pretty much what they always refer to when they show a Mac as "2x faster" or whatever, and they're definitely achieving that, except in the realm of storage capacity, but then that's conspicuous by its absence. But considering you can connect up to 36 Thunderbolt arrays then that's a potential for 36x 10 bay enclosures, each with 4tb drives, that's 1,440tb of data. Limitation… blown!

The FirePros are better than the cards offered with previous Mac Pros, plus there's two of them as standard. Limitation… blown!

12-core Xeon E5 is (somewhat) faster than 2x 6-core Xeons of the past. Limitation… blown! 🙂


It's going to be an impressive little machine for what it can do in the size it can do it in, as well as possible efficiency and noise as factors. It'll be the most powerful small computer out there in fact, but that comes with its own set of limitations, but we'll have to wait for rev 2 to see those new limitations blown away 😉

 

[Mike Biggen]

Yeah because what I see doesn't add up. OK it's innovative, I'm impressed with the reported noise and power idle, I'm sure the PCIe FLASH will be fast, but it's expensive and not upgradable (except some piddly RAM). Maybe they plumb for CrossFire, and combined with system performance makes it blazing fast, making up for the old GPU's?

I suspect the PCIe flash will be upgradable. After all, the flash was replaceable in things like the previous MacBook Air. The new PCIe-based flash is common across most of the lineup, so I wouldn't bet against it be a replaceable part in the new Mac Pro.

 

[echoout]

I'm pretty sure they mean limitations of the previous generation, which is pretty much what they always refer to when they show a Mac as "2x faster" or whatever, and they're definitely achieving that, except in the realm of storage capacity, but then that's conspicuous by its absence. But considering you can connect up to 36 Thunderbolt arrays then that's a potential for 36x 10 bay enclosures, each with 4tb drives, that's 1,440tb of data. Limitation… blown!

The FirePros are better than the cards offered with previous Mac Pros, plus there's two of them as standard. Limitation… blown!

12-core Xeon E5 is (somewhat) faster than 2x 6-core Xeons of the past. Limitation… blown! 🙂


It's going to be an impressive little machine for what it can do in the size it can do it in, as well as possible efficiency and noise as factors. It'll be the most powerful small computer out there in fact, but that comes with its own set of limitations, but we'll have to wait for rev 2 to see those new limitations blown away 😉

The limitations you pointed out were self-inflicted. Those GPUs and processors are still largely upgradable with off the shelf hardware. My upgraded 2009 is almost as fast as the new one in some regards, and the same or faster in others. The inability to upgrade with common parts is the biggest limitation of the new ones. It's been said a million times but I never ever heard a professional say they wished the Mac Pro was smaller.

 

[LongSticks]

Well not quite correct!

The limitations you pointed out were self-inflicted. Those GPUs and processors are still largely upgradable with off the shelf hardware. My upgraded 2009 is almost as fast as the new one in some regards, and the same or faster in others. The inability to upgrade with common parts is the biggest limitation of the new ones. It's been said a million times but I never ever heard a professional say they wished the Mac Pro was smaller.

I've been talking to software demonstrators for windows based software that can't wait to be able to carry 6 Pro machine in the boot of there car rather than PC workstations in a van! That's with out the OSX based Archicad etc professionals that need to take machines on site that can run large models.

I do BiM modelling for a few clients and I will certainly be getting the nMP so that I can build up complex 3d in time based simulations in a clients office. The workstation laptops can't cut it and they are the same price as the 4 core!

There's always somebody with a different requirement to you!

 

[iBug2]

The limitations you pointed out were self-inflicted. Those GPUs and processors are still largely upgradable with off the shelf hardware. My upgraded 2009 is almost as fast as the new one in some regards, and the same or faster in others. The inability to upgrade with common parts is the biggest limitation of the new ones. It's been said a million times but I never ever heard a professional say they wished the Mac Pro was smaller.

Really? I have heard many times. And I'm one of them being as I had to carry my Mac Pro's or G5's several times across cities over the last decade.

 

[slughead]

The limitations you pointed out were self-inflicted. Those GPUs and processors are still largely upgradable with off the shelf hardware. My upgraded 2009 is almost as fast as the new one in some regards, and the same or faster in others. The inability to upgrade with common parts is the biggest limitation of the new ones. It's been said a million times but I never ever heard a professional say they wished the Mac Pro was smaller.

Really? I have heard many times. And I'm one of them being as I had to carry my Mac Pro's or G5's several times across cities over the last decade.

Well that's one.

I'm also waiting to hear the "ease" with which you transport your monitor, external hard drives, and other peripherals.

Oh, I forgot, you bring your laptop, keyboard, mouse, etc with you too. Apparently you're also okay with the anemic internal storage of the nMP for whatever it is you do.

Some will clearly benefit, but I do not think this is a particularly common use-case. I would also argue that you could get more power & features with slightly larger footprint out of a custom PC for a fraction of the cost, but I guess we have to keep the Mac tunnel-vision on.

 

[haravikk]

The limitations you pointed out were self-inflicted. Those GPUs and processors are still largely upgradable with off the shelf hardware. My upgraded 2009 is almost as fast as the new one in some regards, and the same or faster in others. The inability to upgrade with common parts is the biggest limitation of the new ones. It's been said a million times but I never ever heard a professional say they wished the Mac Pro was smaller.

I'm not saying otherwise, I'm just pointing out exactly what Apple means by "blowing away limitation after limitation".

In fact in marketing speak, the ability to upgrade current Mac Pros with more modern parts is irrelevant as that's a freedom not a limitation, so the new Mac Pro is under no obligation to blow that away.

I mean, I completely agree that the new Mac Pro in fact imposes several new limitations, but that doesn't make what Apple said untrue, just a bit misleading. But that's marketing for you!

 

[slughead]

I'm pretty sure they mean limitations of the previous generation, which is pretty much what they always refer to when they show a Mac as "2x faster" or whatever, and they're definitely achieving that, except in the realm of storage capacity, but then that's conspicuous by its absence. But considering you can connect up to 36 Thunderbolt arrays then that's a potential for 36x 10 bay enclosures, each with 4tb drives, that's 1,440tb of data. Limitation… blown!

I would really hate to see the throughput of 360 hard drives running through the meager 6GBps the nMP is capable of. That's about 17MBps per drive.

Also, I'd like to see a 10 bay enclosure that uses only 1 channel. I found an 8 bay that uses 2 channels.

Since apparently we don't care about throughput, the old Mac Pro could run TWO 8GBps 4-port Mini-SAS controllers -- 2.7x the bandwidth of all the thunderbolt2 ports on the nMP combined. This solution could theoretically run 2,040 drives with expanders for a total of 8,160TB.

Limitation Blown! ... on 4 year old technology. If we were to compare the nMP to other workstations with more PCIe ports, the difference would be even more ridiculous.

[edit: though I guess you could buy 36 TB -> MiniSAS ports (at a cost of >$32,000) and run 9,180 drives... since we're well into the realm of silliness here, I guess we can mention that. BTW, 6GBps / 9,180 is 650KBps per drive]

The FirePros are better than the cards offered with previous Mac Pros, plus there's two of them as standard. Limitation… blown!

What is "offered" with the previous Mac Pro is the ability to upgrade to *hundreds* of different options, many of which have capabilities well beyond the existing FirePros--but you could even add in the firepros themselves, likely at a higher clock!

Limitation Blown!

12-core Xeon E5 is (somewhat) faster than 2x 6-core Xeons of the past. Limitation… blown! 🙂

Got me there, it's faster... but this is a limitation created by Apple.

Other PC manufacturers can run DUAL 12-core E5 Xeons. Limitation annihilated!

It's going to be an impressive little machine for what it can do in the size it can do it in, as well as possible efficiency and noise as factors. It'll be the most powerful small computer out there in fact, but that comes with its own set of limitations, but we'll have to wait for rev 2 to see those new limitations blown away 😉

You set the bar low enough, anyone can jump over it.

I don't deny that this is an amazing amount of power in a small form-factor. Hopefully this "450Watt" limit is a typo, otherwise it'll get a lot less impressive.

 

[slughead]

I'm not saying otherwise, I'm just pointing out exactly what Apple means by "blowing away limitation after limitation".

In fact in marketing speak, the ability to upgrade current Mac Pros with more modern parts is irrelevant as that's a freedom not a limitation, so the new Mac Pro is under no obligation to blow that away.

I mean, I completely agree that the new Mac Pro in fact imposes several new limitations, but that doesn't make what Apple said untrue, just a bit misleading. But that's marketing for you!

I'm not sure, even in marketing speak, that Apple's laziness in upgrading the current Mac Pro counts as a limitation.

It's like saying I don't want to go to work today because I would have to put on pants, and so I hire someone to put my pants on. I'm breaking out of my limitations!

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're stretching it a bit 🙂

Plus I think if the nMP could run >64GB of RAM, Apple would absolutely list that as a selling point [edit, hold on, you mentioned that in another thread, not this one... anyway take it as it is].

 

[lssmit02]

They can go up to 11 unlike regular consumer GPUs which are stuck at 10.

Walt Mossberg: Why don't you just make ten [faster] and make ten be the top number and make that a little [faster]?
Tim Cook: [pause] These go to eleven.

 

[LongSticks]

People like this travel all the time!

Well that's one.

I'm also waiting to hear the "ease" with which you transport your monitor, external hard drives, and other peripherals.

Oh, I forgot, you bring your laptop, keyboard, mouse, etc with you too. Apparently you're also okay with the anemic internal storage of the nMP for whatever it is you do.

Some will clearly benefit, but I do not think this is a particularly common use-case. I would also argue that you could get more power & features with slightly larger footprint out of a custom PC for a fraction of the cost, but I guess we have to keep the Mac tunnel-vision on.

As always, with my current laptop, I carry a wheel mouse for PT & Z in cad. I use my current internal SSD as a Software & Scratch disk - work is either pre loaded at the office from RAID work disk, or if I know the clients data connection it's pulled from my Dropbox daily backup! If it's large GIS models etc they are on a Mobile data disk! Already considering a Drobo mini as an alternative portable data source.

So an Apple wireless keyboard - big deal! That's the extra baggage.

Oh yeh screen, I forgot. I was in a clients office today and they have 12 spare screens in there server room from 24" down - plenty for what i need. Even software training companies dont haul screens as they too vulnerable, they are either on site (spares) or rented for the duration of the course.

We are talking about a dual GPU card, 12 core Workstation PC that will probably fit in a large rucksack.....the uses this will be put too we are not even scratching the surface of!

Lastly the nMP weighs 11lbs - a inferior spec Dell M6800 workstations with the a similar 500gb hard drive - so the same storage constraints weighs in at 7.86lbs in 17". So if your moving from office to office as many pros do and then they only plug in a local hot desk screen, would hugely benefit from "portable power"

 

[MacVidCards]

Yee Haw !!!

 

[LongSticks]

Yee Haw !!!

I would have thought your derogatory "haw haw" to anybody's comments that don't match your own, would have been more fitting! 😀

 

[MacVidCards]

Sorry, I got carried away in the excitement.

Such an advance in mobile computing. It's like a laptop, but it's round. And doesn't have a keyboard.

But it's drive is laptop compact.

Hmmm

 

[LongSticks]

Sorry, I got carried away in the excitement.

Such an advance in mobile computing. It's like a laptop, but it's round. And doesn't have a keyboard.

But it's drive is laptop compact.

Hmmm

I started writing a long rambling response which I binned, what's the point.

Laptop compact storage - really!

You do play the devils advocate part very well!

I haven't kept my WORK internally on any machine in probably 10yrs! But then you ignored that part of my post!

 

[haravikk]

I would really hate to see the throughput of 360 hard drives running through the meager 6GBps the nMP is capable of. That's about 17MBps per drive.

Only if you want to use them all simultaneously; it's just a dirty example of how you can spin the lack of internal storage anyway. But out of the box you can hook up a mountain of thunderbolt drives, no need to add any dumb PCIe cards like some prehistoric coal-burning monstrosity, we're talking about the future here! 😛

What is "offered" with the previous Mac Pro is the ability to upgrade to *hundreds* of different options

How many of those were offered by Apple as options when buying your Mac Pro? None! Hand me the big stamp with "irrelevant to marketing" on it please!

Other PC manufacturers can run DUAL 12-core E5 Xeons. Limitation annihilated!

Nonsense! We only rate machines as a percentage improvement over the previous generation from the same company. What are you, a liberal or something? 😀


Point still being, the limitations that Apple cares about are gone, besides which, the quoted "blowing away limitation after limitation" doesn't actually state that this is a new machine without any limitations, only that at least two limitations have been blown away 😉

Personally I quite like PCIe slots and internal storage, but then the main thing I would want a PCIe slot for is really a second GPU which is covered, and I can live with external storage if I have to. Plus I'm a sucker for a sexy small form factor and low noise.

 

[ActionableMango]

This thread has really derailed. It's not about FirePro vs. consumer GPUs any more, that's for sure.

I can live with external storage if I have to. Plus I'm a sucker for a sexy small form factor and low noise.

I think there will be a net increase in noise. Most external drive enclosures are much louder than having drives inside the MP.

 

[AidenShaw]

no need to add any dumb PCIe cards like some prehistoric coal-burning monstrosity, we're talking about the future here! 😛

Good irony, since there's a PCIe card in the box that you plug that T-Bolt cable into....

 

[slughead]

Point still being, the limitations that Apple cares about are gone, besides which, the quoted "blowing away limitation after limitation" doesn't actually state that this is a new machine without any limitations, only that at least two limitations have been blown away 😉

Under the extremely narrow definition of "limitation" being "whatever Apple didn't feel like doing," I agree. It had nothing to do with what would be actually doable.

Just to nitpick: As far as "TB can run X drives out of the Box!" TB can't run any drives out of the box--there are no TB drives--you have to have a controller. At least with PCIe you can keep the drives in the box you already have 🙂

Only PCIe and PCIe-based controllers can run drives out of the box 🙂

 

[iBug2]

Well that's one.

I'm also waiting to hear the "ease" with which you transport your monitor, external hard drives, and other peripherals.

Oh, I forgot, you bring your laptop, keyboard, mouse, etc with you too. Apparently you're also okay with the anemic internal storage of the nMP for whatever it is you do.

Some will clearly benefit, but I do not think this is a particularly common use-case. I would also argue that you could get more power & features with slightly larger footprint out of a custom PC for a fraction of the cost, but I guess we have to keep the Mac tunnel-vision on.

Display keyboard and mouse easily fit in a single suitcase. It's the Mac Pro that is hard to transport due to weight and size. My storage is more than 100 TB's, so I don't carry it with me all the time. Only the parts I need, which will fit into a single external drive case. So the anemic internal storage inside the new Mac Pro is amazing for me, it's the exact thing I needed since I don't use the internal storage of the Mac Pro. All my storage is external since 2008, or since my needs have outgrown the 4 drive bays of a standard box. The only thing I have inside my Mac Pro is an SSD, which is my boot disk. And I'm getting a 5 times faster SSD in the new one, lucky me.

So I'm among the ones who's benefitting. And as I see around me, most people who are professionals, whether they use a PC or a Mac, they have already outgrown their internal storage years ago. Everybody has external boxes lying around the place nowadays. So internal storage lost its value for many whether you realise it or not. External is portable. You can immediately put it in your bag and or hand it to someone else. If you keep any kind of big data internally, whenever you want to transport it, you need to open the box, and get a screwdriver. Not practical at all. And the other thing I'm gonna benefit is the silence, which is a bigger benefit than anything else I can imagine right now. I have speakers that cost north of 15K and I have to listen to all my music and movies with a fan noise baked in all the time, finally no more.

About using a PC vs Mac, why is that part of this discussion? If you don't want to use a Mac, you never had to. It's a choice. If I want to use a Mac, then it's my choice.




----------

Under the extremely narrow definition of "limitation" being "whatever Apple didn't feel like doing," I agree. It had nothing to do with what would be actually doable.

Just to nitpick: As far as "TB can run X drives out of the Box!" TB can't run any drives out of the box--there are no TB drives--you have to have a controller. At least with PCIe you can keep the drives in the box you already have 🙂

Only PCIe and PCIe-based controllers can run drives out of the box 🙂

Why? Get a TB expansion chassis and put in an PCI-e SSD. Doesn't that work?

 

[koban4max]

is it safe to say that many consumers want nMP to game?

 

[beaker7]

is it safe to say that many consumers want nMP to game?

no