What secret do you Europeans have?

[samab]

Believe it or not, the US is not the world leader in cellular phones. We actually follow the rest of the world. Europe, in particular the UK, has the most competitive telecommunications market in the world. In this case, Europe is benefiting from greater competition than the US. They can call here cheaper than we can call into the next state. Calling to the US on an O2 Pay and Go plan can cost as little at 15 pence/minute (30 cents, but the math isn't as simple as that, you are better off thinking that the pound has the same buying power as the dollar). International texts are 10 pence each. Part of this is that their network deployment costs are dramatically lower than in the US, but part of it is also that landlines are VERY expensive in Europe (used to be controlled by the Post Office as a government service), they charge for local calls, and (very important, I think) the caller pays for all costs associated with a call. This is all the more confusing with the higher minute offers in Europe, since those minutes only apply to outgoing calls - not incoming ones.

They can call the US for cheap --- because American carriers don't price gouge international calls. Americans pay a lot of money on calls to Europe --- because Europe price gouging. This is why the CIA can monitor a bunch of Europe to Europe phone calls --- because they are all routed to the US and then back Europe for a round trip.

Mobile termination is ZERO in the US --- that's why Europeans can call the US for cheap.

European iphone plans have shown how uncompetitive they are when compared to the US.

Network deployment cost is cheaper in Europe because of higher population density.

 

[drpellypo]

Believe it or not, the US is not the world leader in cellular phones. We actually follow the rest of the world. Europe, in particular the UK, has the most competitive telecommunications market in the world. In this case, Europe is benefiting from greater competition than the US. They can call here cheaper than we can call into the next state. Calling to the US on an O2 Pay and Go plan can cost as little at 15 pence/minute (30 cents, but the math isn't as simple as that, you are better off thinking that the pound has the same buying power as the dollar). International texts are 10 pence each. Part of this is that their network deployment costs are dramatically lower than in the US, but part of it is also that landlines are VERY expensive in Europe (used to be controlled by the Post Office as a government service), they charge for local calls, and (very important, I think) the caller pays for all costs associated with a call. This is all the more confusing with the higher minute offers in Europe, since those minutes only apply to outgoing calls - not incoming ones.

INdeed that is correct. if you have a mobile (cell) phone here, you pay for outgoing calls, but not incoming. If you call a mobile phone from a landline it can cost you up to 35p (60c, ish) a minute. We also pay around 1-5p per minute to call locally. There are deals you can get that give you a package of free calls, but these are limited.

 

[samab]

INdeed that is correct. if you have a mobile (cell) phone here, you pay for outgoing calls, but not incoming. If you call a mobile phone from a landline it can cost you up to 35p (60c, ish) a minute. We also pay around 1-5p per minute to call locally. There are deals you can get that give you a package of free calls, but these are limited.

Europe is planning to move to American style charging for incoming calls.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b727f24e-3b0c-11dd-b1a1-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

It's much cheaper for the consumer to have American style charges.

 

[tallyho]

Europe is planning to move to American style charging for incoming calls.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b727f24e-3b0c-11dd-b1a1-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
It's much cheaper for the consumer to have American style charges.

I'm not convinced! It just seems completely bizarre to pay if someone else phones you. Weird. Is this yet another strange EU directive?
And do Americans have to pay to receive texts too?

 

[mpw]

...It just seems completely bizarre to pay if someone else phones you...

I agree. I'd prefer to pay a line rental to pay for the service and then my outgoing call costs on top, which is from where the current business model evolved.

 

[Ryan.Fork]

I'm not convinced! It just seems completely bizarre to pay if someone else phones you. Weird. Is this yet another strange EU directive?
And do Americans have to pay to receive texts too?

Indeed we do.

 

[Small White Car]

I'm not convinced! It just seems completely bizarre to pay if someone else phones you. Weird.

I MUCH prefer our system where everyone pays for their half of the call, no matter who called.

If I call my friend and we talk for 5 minutes, and then he calls me back and we talk for 15 minutes, why shouldn't we both pay the same for the day's usage? With the U.S. system, we're both responsible.

With your system, my friend gets screwed. We both talk for 20 minutes but he pays more than I do!

Crazy

 

[drpellypo]

I doubt very much that will go through in the UK as people are confused enough about charges as it is! It will also involve a massive infrastructure shift and probably number changes too to bring it in line with the US.

Mere specualtion I suspect.

 

[OllyW]

You can only get an 8Gb iPhone free, and only if you are willing to commit to an 18 month contract at £45 a month or more ($90 more or less). They more than get their money back be the end of the deal!

You can also get the 16GB free, but only on the £75 per month contract.

 

[Eraserhead]

I'm not convinced! It just seems completely bizarre to pay if someone else phones you. Weird. Is this yet another strange EU directive?
And do Americans have to pay to receive texts too?

The EU is just going to let it happen if the operators want, they won't actually do it though.

 

[Eraserhead]

They can call the US for cheap --- because American carriers don't price gouge international calls. Americans pay a lot of money on calls to Europe --- because Europe price gouging.

Source.

Mobile termination is ZERO in the US --- that's why Europeans can call the US for cheap.

Source.

European iphone plans have shown how uncompetitive they are when compared to the US.

And they haven't sold anywhere close to as well as they did in the US at those prices.

 

[paduck]

They can call the US for cheap --- because American carriers don't price gouge international calls. Americans pay a lot of money on calls to Europe --- because Europe price gouging. This is why the CIA can monitor a bunch of Europe to Europe phone calls --- because they are all routed to the US and then back Europe for a round trip.

Mobile termination is ZERO in the US --- that's why Europeans can call the US for cheap.

European iphone plans have shown how uncompetitive they are when compared to the US.

Network deployment cost is cheaper in Europe because of higher population density.

I only half agree with this. Europe does gouge (if you want to use a judgmental term) on mobile termination. The caller pays model means that the caller is paying any extra charges times two to call a mobile phone. That is translated to everyone who calls a mobile phone - be they European or American. Look at AT&T, Vonage, etc. rates for Europe - they have one set for landline and one set for mobile. Europe coming into the US is just one charge. This is the simplification of the American system.

However, calling European landlines is much cheaper than calling a mobile. A lot cheaper. They get hit with a lot of other charges though (hence the popularity of mobile phones in Europe - they initially were not any more expensive than a landline with per minute charges for all calls - including local). On O2, you can call anywhere in Europe for 7p/min to landline and 30p/min to mobile. Calling the US is 15p/min for both mobile and landline.

Europeans are used to buying highly subsidized phones. With a high entry cost on the iPhone, it wasn't selling so well in Europe. Hence the price cuts, particularly in the UK. That started moving them. With the 3G iPhone, the subsidies are even greater. Europeans turn over handsets constantly. Now that the iPhone is behaving like a traditional handset in their marketplace, it should be pretty competitive.

I agree 100% on the deployment costs of mobile phones in Europe.

I don't know what to say about the CIA (or NSA or GCHQ). They don't share their eavesdropping plans with me....

 

[samab]

You people are thinking "penny wise and dollar stupid" --- all you people think about is "WTH with paying for incoming calls". Personally I wouldn't care if the carrier charges me a silly fee whenever I recharge my cell phone's battery at night --- as long as at the end of the month I would pay less money.

The most competitive mobile market in Europe is Britain --- and Brits pay about 40% more on mobile charges than Americans (even with Americans paying for incoming calls).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2140132/Mobile-phone-users-may-pay-to-receive-calls.html

So the rest of Europe --- these people are paying 50-60% more than Americans.

There are real legitimate reasons why EC is thinking about moving towards the American style of zero termination rate and receiver party pays.

 

[chrisparr]

Apple has as much to do with price of the iPhone from a mobile operator as Nokia does the N95 from a mobile operator: NOTHING.

The mobile operator buys the phones from Apple, the price the end users pay has more to do with how much profit the operator wants to make.

With regards to paying for incoming calls? Well, as long as the free minutes get bumped up and callers are NEVER allowed to withold their number it might work. Heavy users will loose out though.

 

[deannnnn]

I think that when people say "we" "us" and "here" they should specify, American or European. lol.

 

[tallyho]

If I call my friend and we talk for 5 minutes, and then he calls me back and we talk for 15 minutes, why shouldn't we both pay the same for the day's usage? With the U.S. system, we're both responsible.

With your system, my friend gets screwed. We both talk for 20 minutes but he pays more than I do!

Crazy

No - not crazy: makes perfect sense. The person who calls is responsible. For instance, an acquaintance of mine (who I don't particularly want to talk to) calls me and won't get off the phone for 20 minutes. She pays. Simple. If both people had to pay, I would hang up after about 10 seconds and my pretence of being a good friend would be exposed.

 

[deannnnn]

No - not crazy: makes perfect sense. The person who calls is responsible. For instance, an acquaintance of mine (who I don't particularly want to talk to) calls me and won't get off the phone for 20 minutes. She pays. Simple. If both people had to pay, I would hang up after about 10 seconds and my pretence of being a good friend would be exposed.

OR you could just get unlimited minutes and not worry about any of it

 

[sunfast]

I'm certainly chuffed about the subsidy allowed for iPhones this time around. I'm going for the £45 tariff so my 16GB iPhone will cost £59. Despite that, it's still the first time I've ever paid for mobile phone handset. The whole subsidy thing is how it's always been here (UK) and why I couldn't bring myself to consider a first gen iPhone

 

[Ish]

I MUCH prefer our system where everyone pays for their half of the call, no matter who called.

If I call my friend and we talk for 5 minutes, and then he calls me back and we talk for 15 minutes, why shouldn't we both pay the same for the day's usage? With the U.S. system, we're both responsible.

With your system, my friend gets screwed. We both talk for 20 minutes but he pays more than I do!

Crazy

Not convinced! Does this apply to both landline and mobile calls? Doesn't this just encourage junk calls? If someone calls to offer me double glazing I don't want to pay half their bill.

 

[Stardotboy]

I MUCH prefer our system where everyone pays for their half of the call, no matter who called.

If I call my friend and we talk for 5 minutes, and then he calls me back and we talk for 15 minutes, why shouldn't we both pay the same for the day's usage? With the U.S. system, we're both responsible.

With your system, my friend gets screwed. We both talk for 20 minutes but he pays more than I do!

Crazy

Not convinced either. I would absolutely hate a system where I was not in direct control of my own phone bill. Practically every day I get calls and texts from someone where I wouldn't wish to pay anything for the honour of having them contact me - for example someone trying to recruit me for a job that's not right for me.

The concept applied to receiving texts is even more scary as you have no control over who sends you a text or how many times they text you - at least with a call you can just hang up.

If they bring american-style billing over here I will be very cross indeed

 

[PCMacUser]

The UK is very good for mobile phones. It's even cheaper than Hong Kong from my experiences there earlier this year.

 

[em500]

You people are thinking "penny wise and dollar stupid" --- all you people think about is "WTH with paying for incoming calls". Personally I wouldn't care if the carrier charges me a silly fee whenever I recharge my cell phone's battery at night --- as long as at the end of the month I would pay less money.

The most competitive mobile market in Europe is Britain --- and Brits pay about 40% more on mobile charges than Americans (even with Americans paying for incoming calls).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2140132/Mobile-phone-users-may-pay-to-receive-calls.html

So the rest of Europe --- these people are paying 50-60% more than Americans.

There are real legitimate reasons why EC is thinking about moving towards the American style of zero termination rate and receiver party pays.

That article doesn't give any details about that calculation. What I do know is that I pay a lot less here in Holland than I did in the US.

Around here, I can get 300 minutes a month for €8 plus 90 SMS for another €2, which is all I need, especially as it includes rollovers and free voicemail. For Americans, you can roughly double those minutes and messages for comparing with the US since receiving is always free here.

Unlimited data can be added for another €7, but I haven't found much use for that, so my total monthly phone bill is €10 including fees/taxes.

When I was in the US, reasonable plans started around $30 or so excluding lots of weird taxes and fees, and with less favorable conditions as my current plan here in Holland. The only way to keep the bill under €10/mnth I found were prepaid/pay-as-you-go, which had a paltry 30 minutes or so included.

 

[memesmith]

As somebody in the Telegraph article states, its just the telco' throwing their toys out of the pram. They won't do it, or rather, the boligs ones won't do it first, 'cos they'd loose market share. Smaller ones like three might, and if they did we'd see whether the greater transparency attracted users. I had two wrong numbers come throgh to my phone from China the other day, glad I wasn't paying for half of those calls!

I'm intrigued about where the Telegraph gets their 40% more expensive than the US figure from though. Especially when an American post states in this thread that inter-state calling is more expensive there than international calls here.

 

[peterbaby]

How about roaming revenues?

Hi,

I here you discussing the advantage of operators for charging outcoming calls (and only them) at a higher price in Europe. That's possible, although I admit I also wouldn't like to pay to receive calls or texts (especially when it's not someone I don't like ).

Two things here:


1 - Landline calls

You guys have been mentioning the UK, but don't forget another early iPhone market: France. Here, mobile contracts are quite expensive, but not landlines.
In all (middle +) cities, we have triple play offers (DSL at 20/2 MBit/s or now Fiber at 100/50MBit/s + DSL Television incl. some HD + IP phone line). They all cost (incl. Fiber, priced the same) from €29,90 to €39,90 (about $45 to $60), all included (that is no other phone line to pay whatsoever).
The VOIP phone lines all include (depending on the operator) FREE and UNLIMITED calls to fixed lines of France and 60 to 120 foreign countries (for US and Canada, this also includes cells).

2 - Roaming revenues

I would be curious to know what the revenues of the incredibly high roaming fees are in Europe. The EU regulated voice calls roaming last year, but data roaming remains incredibly expensive (despite recent EU threats to regulate).
My assumption is we Europeans are much more mobile that the US, even only if it was for vacations.
In Paris, we have 6 countries in a 3 hours high speed train range (UK, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland), and the rest of Europe is at less that 2.30 hours by plane.
I'm not saying every single person travels all the time across borders, but in the facts, I guess the operators here make a big deal of money on roaming, much more that AT&T or Sprint.

 

[peterja]

That article doesn't give any details about that calculation. What I do know is that I pay a lot less here in Holland than I did in the US.

Around here, I can get 300 minutes a month for €8 plus 90 SMS for another €2, which is all I need, especially as it includes rollovers and free voicemail. For Americans, you can roughly double those minutes and messages for comparing with the US since receiving is always free here.

Unlimited data can be added for another €7, but I haven't found much use for that, so my total monthly phone bill is €10 including fees/taxes.

When I was in the US, reasonable plans started around $30 or so excluding lots of weird taxes and fees, and with less favorable conditions as my current plan here in Holland. The only way to keep the bill under €10/mnth I found were prepaid/pay-as-you-go, which had a paltry 30 minutes or so included.

Those are pretty good prices in Holland, from what I've seen it looks like it's more expensive in the US than many European countries.
Having several carriers using the same technology and covering the whole country seems like it would lead to a more competitive market, despite the high taxes and bureaucracy. The termination rates are an interesting issue though.