What the Hell is Wrong With This World, Part 179

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Dec 27, 2002
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/4361724.stm

Shanni Naylor needed 30 stitches in her face after the assault during an English lesson at Myrtle Springs School in Sheffield on Wednesday afternoon.

It is believed she had intervened to stop her assailant bullying another pupil the day before.

A 12-year-old girl was arrested in connection with the attack and released on police bail until December.
So basically, she's scarred for life or something.

And then a separate incident happens the next day? At the same school?

(expletive) :rolleyes:
 

rainman::|:|

macrumors 603
Feb 2, 2002
5,438
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iowa
kids today...

hopefully she can get the scars reduced by plastic surgery... what a terrible age to have your face scarred...
 

devilot

Moderator emeritus
May 1, 2005
15,532
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Holy moly... in that article it references a couple other incidences all involving that same age.. 12 year old girls. :eek: What violent tendencies!
 

Applespider

macrumors G4
The thing that really gets me about this is that the teacher was in the room when it happened! I'd almost rather it had been a knife though; taking your pencil sharpener apart shows a horrible premeditation to it which is almost worse than someone suddenly snapping.

There was a scary Panorama (BBC current affairs show) programme recently which was talking to teenagers who were in prison for stabbing guys. The alarming thing there (which I suspect was similar to the attacker here) was the attitude that stabbing wasn't really anything. One boy said that it really wasn't fair that he was in jail for 2 years since he'd only stabbed the guy and it wasn't like he'd died or anything. Blades to these kids are nothing and they don't think twice about using them.

PS: I'm almost sure that we're way past Part 179 - or is that just part 179 for october 05?
 

EGT

macrumors 68000
Sep 4, 2003
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Yeah I saw this on the TV yesterday. Poor girl.

Unbelievable really, isn't it?
 

mkrishnan

Moderator emeritus
Jan 9, 2004
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Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Applespider said:
The thing that really gets me about this is that the teacher was in the room when it happened! I'd almost rather it had been a knife though; taking your pencil sharpener apart shows a horrible premeditation to it which is almost worse than someone suddenly snapping.
Yeah.... :( I dunno, though. I understand that the UK has passed laws that help teachers restrain students. But teachers are not properly equipped for physical intervention against students with weapons.... This is awful. What is the answer? To have armed guards in schools? Ugh.
 

AppleMatt

macrumors 68000
Mar 17, 2003
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mkrishnan said:
Yeah.... :( I dunno, though. I understand that the UK has passed laws that help teachers restrain students. But teachers are not properly equipped for physical intervention against students with weapons.... This is awful. What is the answer? To have armed guards in schools? Ugh.
I work with some of the most dangerous people in Europe, and can be involved in up-to 15 restraints a day. We're trained to remove weapons with the exception of firearms (we were shown, but only out of interest), and we work in teams to do this. Despite that I'll tell you straight - when weapons are involved, back away and call the police. No ifs, buts or maybes. You don't go in against weapons.

The idea that teachers should be trained to restrain pupils is ludicrous.
Scenario 1: Pupil becomes aggressive towards a teacher. The teacher feels unsafe and makes the decision to restrain. Firstly one person alone cannot safely (both physically and legally) restrain another. So that needs two people. Now who's going to look after the rest of the class? 3 people. Once you've taken the child to the ground, you're going to need someone on the head and someone (or two, depending on their strength) on the legs. So we're at 5/6 people.
Scenario 2: Two pupils are fighting. You need 3 staff on each pupil to safely separate them. So we're at 6 staff. When you take them to the ground you'll need minimum 2 more and preferably 3 more per pupil, so that's 10/12 staff to safely separate the fight, and 1 to control the rest of the pupils. So we need 11 to 13 staff to safely end a confrontation between two children. 4 of those staff are injured in the restraint and require time off work. Who covers them?

Now...the child has kicked off for whatever reason, presumably they're not too happy at the teacher. Will they be more happy or less happy when the teacher is putting them in locks? Restraint is fast, it's hard and it hurts. Where will they restrain the pupil, in-front of every other pupil? How will the teachers exit?

Scenario 3: The teacher feels threatened by a pupil. They make the decision to restrain but while doing so the pupil is hit by another pupil. Now the teacher has a whole lot of legal problems because they were holding someone down while another was assaulting them.

That's just scratching the surface, in my head there are hundreds of 'what ifs' flying around, most of which are based on prior experience.

AppleMatt
 

Les Kern

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2002
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rainman::|:| said:
kids today...
Today?
You know, I read about these stories a lot, or at least hear about them on the net or featured on the glass teat. And while each individual event can be horrifying on occasion and me feelings toward the victim are real, this sort of news is just... not indicative of how things have deteriorated.
When I see something like this and someone mentions how bad things are, I generally do a bit of searching. Do this: Look up the numbers for adolescent crime for the last 10 years. Has it gone up, stayed the same or decreased? How about the last 50 years? 200 years? Ignore the total numbers, look at the ratios.
The world made more sense to me after I read two books: "The Culture of Fear" and "Freakonomics". They changed my life. What we REALLY need to fear isn't covered at 10 o'clock. What we REALLY need to know is never discussed on Fox News (for instance)... which, get this, reports to the entertainment division.
There is your hint.
Buy the books and find enlightenment.
 

mkrishnan

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Jan 9, 2004
29,641
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AppleMatt said:
That's just scratching the surface, in my head there are hundreds of 'what ifs' flying around, most of which are based on prior experience.
Matt, yes, you've very eloquently set out just a few of the disasters waiting to happen if single teachers are somehow expected to contain violence in a classroom. It just isn't realistic, through no fault of their own. At least in the US, we do everything we can to keep police and soldiers out of those kind of situations...and they have the authority to use lethal force. Ugh ugh ugh.

Les, you definitely have a valid point, in that, at least in the US, the figures do not support the contention that most kinds of violent crime are on the increase or that we're somehow deteriorating. I don't know about the UK, and it doesn't make this any easier to take, but you definitely have a valid point.
 

MongoTheGeek

macrumors 68040
It doesn't look like she will be too badly scarred. Its the ones on the inside that affect her the most.

As for the decline of society its a sign of how far that we have come. 150 years ago it might not have been worth mentioning. It also shows how far we have to go. Aberrant behaviour is normal at the fringes, the fringes are moving ahead but it takes time.
 

mcadam

macrumors 6502a
Apr 3, 2004
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MongoTheGeek said:
150 years ago it might not have been worth mentioning.
That is a good point. The apparent state of the world is highly influenced by todays massive media coverage. I agree with you Mongo that 150 years ago society was probably a lot more violent than today. People just didn't think much of it. Today we get to hear about even a little incident like this, in another country. Thus the world seem to be full of violence when really, for most people, it is safer and more peacefull than ever.

On a side note - 150 years ago we might not have known about the tsunami in Asia or the earthquke in Pakistan.

A
 

MongoTheGeek

macrumors 68040
mcadam said:
That is a good point. The apparent state of the world is highly influenced by todays massive media coverage. I agree with you Mongo that 150 years ago society was probably a lot more violent than today. People just didn't think much of it. Today we get to hear about even a little incident like this, in another country. Thus the world seem to be full of violence when really, for most people, it is safer and more peacefull than ever.

On a side note - 150 years ago we might not have known about the tsunami in Asia or the earthquke in Thailand.

A
150 news travelled almost as quickly as it does now. The telegraphs would be humming with the news.
 

todge

macrumors newbie
Oct 1, 2005
16
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Les Kern said:
The world made more sense to me after I read two books: "The Culture of Fear" and "Freakonomics". They changed my life. What we REALLY need to fear isn't covered at 10 o'clock. What we REALLY need to know is never discussed on Fox News (for instance)... which, get this, reports to the entertainment division.
There is your hint.
Buy the books and find enlightenment.

As Disraeli said, there are three types of lie... Lies, damned lies and statistics. Those books will have used very carefully chosen stats to back their argument up. Everyone does it. I'm no saying they're wrong, but I wouldn't treat them as gospel, just as I take Michael Moore's latest rant, with his truckload of "facts" with a pinch of salt.
 

Artful Dodger

macrumors 68020
When a child if you will does this, I no longer consider them a child, as their mind seems to go beyond what most adults would do to someone else unless attacked by someone. Even worse the thought that goes into some of the things (as well as from this) that kids do to each other and "older" adults knowing that hey I'm under that magic 16/18 yr. old rule.
Okay enough OT for me I'm just hoping she heals well both inside and out with the proper help and support.
 

Moxiemike

macrumors 68020
Jan 1, 2002
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So recently up in Armstrong County, about an hour away from Pittsburgh, a woman is up on trial for trying to cut out and steal another woman's baby.

I think that something weird is happening to the collective society as a whole. Something weird is really goin' on....

m
 

Moxiemike

macrumors 68020
Jan 1, 2002
2,437
0
Pittsburgh, PA
Sorry for the D.P.:

linky to the madness

Woman charged over attempt to steal fetus
Neighbor who allegedly cut open mom-to-be had bassinet, baby swing

Woman charged in attempt to steal fetus

Oct. 14: A woman from suburban Pittsburgh is accused of beating a pregnant woman, then slitting open her belly in a failed attempt to steal the fetus. NBC's Rehema Ellis reports.

Updated: 9:23 a.m. ET Oct. 14, 2005
PITTSBURGH - A woman accused of cutting her pregnant neighbor’s belly with a knife in an attempt to steal her baby had a bassinet and a baby swing waiting at her home, police say.

Peggy Jo Conner, 38, was arraigned Thursday on charges of attempted homicide and aggravated assault and jailed without bail.

“Clearly, she was expecting a child coming in shortly,” prosecutor Scott Andreassi said. “There’s nothing to indicate she was pregnant.”
 

hulugu

macrumors 68000
Aug 13, 2003
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todge said:
As Disraeli said, there are three types of lie... Lies, damned lies and statistics. Those books will have used very carefully chosen stats to back their argument up. Everyone does it. I'm no saying they're wrong, but I wouldn't treat them as gospel, just as I take Michael Moore's latest rant, with his truckload of "facts" with a pinch of salt.
That's what so interesting about Freakonomics, it explores how statistics are either poorly understood or intentionally misused. More than the statistics is the idea that we need to look at how statistics are created and be much less naive about how these numbers are derived.
Another quote: men use statistics as a drunk uses a lightpost, for support rather than illumination.
 

MongoTheGeek

macrumors 68040
hulugu said:
That's what so interesting about Freakonomics, it explores how statistics are either poorly understood or intentionally misused. More than the statistics is the idea that we need to look at how statistics are created and be much less naive about how these numbers are derived.
Another quote: men use statistics as a drunk uses a lightpost, for support rather than illumination.
A bunch of friends of mine took statistics in college. The textbook was titled "How to lie with statistics"

Various things to remember.
1) If you torture the data enough it will confess.
2) any 3 points can be plotted in a strait line on the proper type of graph paper.
corollary: If you only have one type of graph paper only take 2 data points.
 

mkrishnan

Moderator emeritus
Jan 9, 2004
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MongoTheGeek said:
corollary: If you only have one type of graph paper only take 2 data points.
See, now if you take two data points, you can only fit them to one straight line. I recommend taking a single data point and generalizing. This ensures a good fit between the theoretical model and the data in all situations. :)