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the basis behind "the customer is always right" mentality is built around the value of a satisfied customer.
for example
taco bell estimates that a lifelong, satisfied customer, who visits their establishment on a semi-regular basis is worth around $12,000 to them over their life time
Lexus also has estimated that a lifelong, satisfied customer is worth approximately $600,000 to them over the span of their lifetime.

apple obviously falls between these two numbers. if their customer service is so great that it keeps the customer buying products for the rest of their life, replacing a 2,000 computer is worth it.
 
Hold on, let me get this straight. There are three kinds of 'problem' pixels.
What is it called when you can only notice a stuck blue green or red color, when the screen is black?
And i'm assuming that a random red blue or green pixel that is permanantly that color in the screen is a 'stuck pixel'
and a black pixel is a dead pixel. Right?

The Apple store in San Francisco had lots of ACDs they nearly all had at least one stuck pixel (usually several)
 
The OP has a legitimate complaint - and the many thousands of LCD's out there without dead pixels show that a screen with all pixels functioning as intended isn't "unachievable perfection". Either way, the OP has a legitmate complaint. If it's something that you are happy to live with, that's fine too - but I would feel the same as knowledg333, and I would also expect a replacement.

the basis behind "the customer is always right" mentality is built around the value of a satisfied customer.
for example
taco bell estimates that a lifelong, satisfied customer, who visits their establishment on a semi-regular basis is worth around $12,000 to them over their life time
Lexus also has estimated that a lifelong, satisfied customer is worth approximately $600,000 to them over the span of their lifetime.

apple obviously falls between these two numbers. if their customer service is so great that it keeps the customer buying products for the rest of their life, replacing a 2,000 computer is worth it.

Thank you both for seeing the simple ideology behind my reasoning. I'm not neurotic. I like to think that the consumer-producer relationship is more than just monetary exchange. Creating the loyal customer might be expensive in the short term, but over the long run it is much more beneficial. That's how companies go from good to great.
 
I like to think that the consumer-producer relationship is more than just monetary exchange. Creating the loyal customer might be expensive in the short term, but over the long run it is much more beneficial. That's how companies go from good to great.
No argument here.

That said, companies must also take into account the cost of providing this level of support. Many times it is cost prohibitive for the company at the time. So even if the customer will have long term return on investment for the company they may not be able to provide that level of support at the current time.
 
The OP has a legitimate complaint - and the many thousands of LCD's out there without dead pixels show that a screen with all pixels functioning as intended isn't "unachievable perfection". Either way, the OP has a legitmate complaint. If it's something that you are happy to live with, that's fine too - but I would feel the same as knowledg333, and I would also expect a replacement.
The mere existence of flawless panels does not logically imply that 100% of them can be built flawlessly. Panels are graded (like beef or eggs or lumber) and Apple buys panels of the highest available grade. This ensures a low defect rate, but not a zero defect rate. The cost of eliminating the last few defects comes at an exponential increase in the acceleration of the price curve. Getting from 90% to 99% is much easier than going from 99% to 99.9% to 99.9999% to 99.999999% percent (even this, by the way, is a lower quality than the LCDs on the market today). Yeah, it sucks to have that one-in-1.5 million pixels that's broken, but somebody has to have it, and it's luck of the draw. Nothing's perfect, and you're in for an unhappy ride for life if you expect perfection where you have neither paid for perfection nor have any logical reason to conclude perfection was marketed.

You might expect a replacement, but you're by no means entitled to one, by policy or even by virtue. The price you pay has already considered the possibility of a small number of defects in it. Try and ask for one, by all means, but don't pretend even for an instant that it's something to which you're entitled. You didn't pay any more than anyone else, and you certainly didn't stipulate flawlessness in your purchase.
 
The mere existence of flawless panels does not logically imply that 100% of them can be built flawlessly. Panels are graded (like beef or eggs or lumber) and Apple buys panels of the highest available grade. This ensures a low defect rate, but not a zero defect rate. The cost of eliminating the last few defects comes at an exponential increase in the acceleration of the price curve. Getting from 90% to 99% is much easier than going from 99% to 99.9% to 99.9999% to 99.999999% percent (even this, by the way, is a lower quality than the LCDs on the market today). Yeah, it sucks to have that one-in-1.5 million pixels that's broken, but somebody has to have it, and it's luck of the draw. Nothing's perfect, and you're in for an unhappy ride for life if you expect perfection where you have neither paid for perfection nor have any logical reason to conclude perfection was marketed.

You might expect a replacement, but you're by no means entitled to one, by policy or even by virtue. The price you pay has already considered the possibility of a small number of defects in it. Try and ask for one, by all means, but don't pretend even for an instant that it's something to which you're entitled. You didn't pay any more than anyone else, and you certainly didn't stipulate flawlessness in your purchase.

I guess it's always much easier to pontificate and patronize when you're talking about someone else's display. Thing is, the original poster didn't pay any *less* than anyone else either. His complaint is legitimate. When you discuss entitlement, you are discussing Apple's policy. Is this fully and appropriately disclosed by Apple and formally accepted by the buyer at the time of sale and clearly made part of the conditions of the sale/purchase contract? I don't think it is, and it isn't referenced in the hardware warranty. For what it's worth I've no ax to grind as all of my Apple LCD displays to date have been perfect. I just don't see why the original poster should be expected to accept anything less than a display that works as well as the vast majority of others, me included, are able to enjoy.
 
Chock another one up for Apples legendary high quality!

Their policy is not to repair or replace the unit if it has fewer than FIVE stuck or dead pixels? WHAT?

I mean, really.. who here is comfortable paying $2,000+ for a MacBook to have a red dot stuck in their menu bar, or something that looks like a speck of dirt in the center of their screen?

Not me.

Ok Ok.. I suppose if I were to pick up a 17" MacBook Pro from a pawn shop for $400, i'd learn to live with a couple dead pixels.. but if i'm paying top dollar for something, I expect top quality.
 
Dont Samsung have a 'no-dead-pixel' policy? Im sure a friend of mine told me that, and pointed out reference to it
 
Chock another one up for Apples legendary high quality!

Their policy is not to repair or replace the unit if it has fewer than FIVE stuck or dead pixels? WHAT?

I mean, really.. who here is comfortable paying $2,000+ for a MacBook to have a red dot stuck in their menu bar, or something that looks like a speck of dirt in the center of their screen?

Not me.

Ok Ok.. I suppose if I were to pick up a 17" MacBook Pro from a pawn shop for $400, i'd learn to live with a couple dead pixels.. but if i'm paying top dollar for something, I expect top quality.

Those are my sentiments exactly. Well put.
 
God bless all those managers who still know that the customer is always right. It's not called "caving", it's called customer service. Yes, those were the days...:rolleyes:

I believe "the customer is always right" philosophy has fallen out of favor in recent years, since the customer is most certainly not always right.
 
I believe "the customer is always right" philosophy has fallen out of favor in recent years, since the customer is most certainly not always right.

If, in the eyes of the business, the customer is not always right, than the customer will not always be loyal to that business. Some cold and heartless companies prefer it that way, but others with more compassion hold to a higher standard of business ethics.
 
If, in the eyes of the business, the customer is not always right, than the customer will not always be loyal to that business. Some cold and heartless companies prefer it that way, but others with more compassion hold to a higher standard of business ethics.

If you think every company that doesn't pander to every little desire of yours is "cold and heartless," then you're just expecting way too much. A company that is willing to bankrupt itself in order to please every single customer's nit-pickings is hard to come by.

In the jobs I've had so far, nobody has tried to tell me the customer is always right, except for unsatisfied customers themselves.
 
you need to cynical to be successful in business. especially when your business is expensive and not immune to flaws. i know people who have cracked cell phone lcds playing football with the phone in their pocket. and the phone wasn't even a week old. and they take it back to the store claiming it's defective.

AND, he actually BS'd his way through it and got a replacement $200 phone.

A lot of people are quick to jump on corporations for ripping off customers, but don't think for a second there aren't millions of customers out there ripping off the companies as well.

as a somewhat unrelated vent, i get disgusted when i read on howard forums about these phone geeks hacking their phones, frying them, then returning them to verizon or wherever for a replacement. idiots like those not only make my phone bill more expensive, but make verizon's customer service neccessarily more cynical towards me should i ever have a phone that really does go on the fritz. sorry for the thread hack.
 
I guess it's always much easier to pontificate and patronize when you're talking about someone else's display.
I've had three displays with stuck or broken pixels that were inelegible for replacement. I've also handled a purchase order for 232 LCDs, 7 of which had some sort of display imperfection.

Thing is, the original poster didn't pay any *less* than anyone else either. His complaint is legitimate. When you discuss entitlement, you are discussing Apple's policy. Is this fully and appropriately disclosed by Apple and formally accepted by the buyer at the time of sale and clearly made part of the conditions of the sale/purchase contract? I don't think it is, and it isn't referenced in the hardware warranty.
It's on Apple's website, and it's certainly disclosed if you ask about it. It's also an industry norm, so it's not like it came way out of left field. Manufacturing technologies are known to be imperfect, just like every other expensive product in the world.

I just don't see why the original poster should be expected to accept anything less than a display that works as well as the vast majority of others, me included, are able to enjoy.
Because someone has to own the displays and take one for the team. Either that, or display prices have to be increased in order to pay for the increased turnover loss in the panels. A defect this minor in any other purchase (including much more expensive ones, like cars and homes) would be heralded as a great achievement. You can't realistically expect a company to throw out an entire panel because one out of nearly 2 million pixels is broken. That's a huge waste, not to mention the man-hours needed to detect them and determine if they're temporarily stuck or permanently so.

So either you accept higher prices, or you deal with the possibility that what you buy is imperfect. The displays sold right now are as perfect as practically possible at the current demands of the market.
 
The OP has a legitimate complaint - and the many thousands of LCD's out there without dead pixels show that a screen with all pixels functioning as intended isn't "unachievable perfection". Either way, the OP has a legitmate complaint. If it's something that you are happy to live with, that's fine too - but I would feel the same as knowledg333, and I would also expect a replacement.

I never said making an LCD with no dead pixels is unachievable perfection, I'm stating it's impossible to make them ALL perfect (unless you buy one of the $5,000+ medical grade lcds).

You really don't notice a dead pixel when you stop obsessing about it. You know how the human mind works, right? When something extremely small is out of place visually it tends to correct the problem right there in its biological software. It's only a problem when you think about it and look for it (in this case by popping a solid colored background behind the pixel). It is actually very amazing how it works.

The customer is NOT always right. Apparently you have never worked retail. You also have apparently never owned a business that serves customers. The customer is right within reason, but I think more and more these days you have customers making unreasonable demands. I would have customers come in with a product that broke, no receipt, and they paid cash. Then they blame me for not being able to find their receipt in the system. (But then of course they are mad when they find out we have records of their name/phon e number/credit card numbers). Personally, if I lose a receipt, it is MY mistake so I get over it and take my loss.

The majority of customers are dumb when it comes to new age business. They don't understand the products they are purchasing so they make unreasonable demands. They expect the business to do everything for them, and hold their hand, and be able to produce all the documentation that THEY should be keeping for their own financial protection. I don't believe in screwing people over, but a lot of people think they have been screwed over when they have actually received a fair deal.

When someone comes into the store with a 5 year old cordless phone that broke demanding a new one you think the customer is right? NO.
 
I've had three displays with stuck or broken pixels that were inelegible for replacement. I've also handled a purchase order for 232 LCDs, 7 of which had some sort of display imperfection.

7 out of 232 is 3% of the displays. A 3% defect rate is not a huge amount. If I were a betting man, I would be willing to put money down on the fact that the LCD manufacturers, and the PC manufacturers like Apple are making way more than 3% profit off of their products. That being said, they would still be profitable even if they replaced 3% of their LCDs. Companies like WALMART accept returns on EVERYTHING, because they will still be profitable, and they know it is to their benefit to keep a satisfied customer.

It's on Apple's website, and it's certainly disclosed if you ask about it.
And what if I didn't know I would need to ask about it?
 
Dont Samsung have a 'no-dead-pixel' policy? Im sure a friend of mine told me that, and pointed out reference to it

Yes, I believe this to be true. I own a samsung monitor to hook my mpb up to. Samsung also has a standard 3 year warranty on their displays.

Now, don't start complaining Apple should have this policy as well, because they don't. If you want this kind of policy and warranty then you should buy a samsung. If enough customers do this then Apple might be forced to adopt the same standards. Vote with your dollars!

Part of the reason I bought the samsung was because of this policy. They make it clear they have this policy, Apple makes it clear they do not. So if I got a dead pixel why would I expect Apple to make a replacement? I love Apple, but in this case I went with a competitors product because of their policies.

And what if I didn't know I would need to ask about it?

Whoever says Apple doesn't disclose this information at the time of sale: It is the customers responsibility to understand what they are buying, even if it means requesting the information or doing some research and reading. If you didn't understand the warranty when you purchased the product that is YOUR fault.

I think consumer responsibility is dying.
 
That being said, they would still be profitable even if they replaced 3% of their LCDs. Companies like WALMART accept returns on EVERYTHING, because they will still be profitable, and they know it is to their benefit to keep a satisfied customer.
Except the cost to them is greater than the defect rate. There is a great deal of time and effort involved in finding the ones which are broken, and disposing of them represents a huge waste of resources. You expect the company to eat the cost, but why shouldn't the cost be passed on to the customers? What right do you have to say that a company's profit margin is high enough to cover the cost?

That's what's wrong with the sense of entitlement--people think someone else should always do more to avoid problems or make things better for them. That's not the way it should work. The market (that is the customers) doesn't expect any higher quality for the price, or sales would decrease to demonstrate dissatisfaction. There are always going to be a few people who get less than average and few above. Without replication technology, that's how manufacturing works, period. The company can't be expected to recall the ones below the curve any more than it should have to take the ones above the curve to make it "fair" for everyone.

And what if I didn't know I would need to ask about it?
Then you didn't do the appropriate amount of research for the purchase. If $2000 was a lot of money to spend, you should have looked into the problems and policies. If you just spent $2000 by diving into a purchase blindly, then it wasn't a significant sum to you and you shouldn't complain about the price.

If in 2006 you don't know that not all products are perfect, and more specifically that LCD technology comes with a chance of stuck pixels or uneven backlighting or leaks, then you're really not qualified to buy any of those products. Nearly EVERY site and review of LCDs will introduce you to the concept of a dead pixel. Ignorance isn't an excuse.
 
Whoever says Apple doesn't disclose this information at the time of sale: It is the customers responsibility to understand what they are buying, even if it means requesting the information or doing some research and reading. If you didn't understand the warranty when you purchased the product that is YOUR fault.

I think consumer responsibility is dying.

Agreed, in general it's hard to disagree with any of this, of course the buyer has some responsibility. In this specific case, however, I think you'll struggle to find anywhere in the Apple limited hardware warranty where it makes any reference to coverage being subject to Apple's dead pixel policy, neither does that policy appear to be introduced by the sale agreement.
 
Dont Samsung have a 'no-dead-pixel' policy? Im sure a friend of mine told me that, and pointed out reference to it

I think this is common confusion as I recall it only applies in South Korea. It was a publicity stunt as i recall. But its hard to say. Some sites say when it was announced such as slash dot say it was only South Korea others make no mention of it.
http://erms.samsungusa.com/customer...?PG_ID=1&AT_ID=5608&PROD_SUB_ID=28&PROD_ID=-1 so in the states it does not apply. I it does not in canada either. I don't know about the UK. Here is a like which I don't understand: http://erms.samsungelectronics.com/customer/uk/jsp/faqs/faqs_self.jsp
And thats for the UK. So Samsungs policy seems to be more of a publicity stunt, from what I can tell. But it sure as well is not wide spread.
 
In this specific case, however, I think you'll struggle to find anywhere in the Apple limited hardware warranty where it makes any reference to coverage being subject to Apple's dead pixel policy, neither does that policy appear to be introduced by the sale agreement.
I think you'd find that Apple's "Pixel anomaly" page appears at the top of a Google search for "apple pixel policy," and you'll also find that the warranty does not discuss any specific defects, instead inviting the customer to contact Customer Care with questions or perceived defects. Apple customer care and sales associates are also more than happy to answer questions in my experience, and if they don't know the answer, they will bring it to a supervisor's attention.

About LCD anomalies [Apple.com]

As for the warranty:

Apple does not warrant that the operation of the product will be uninterrupted or error-free.
In other words, you don't get perfection when you buy anything.

AS PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, APPLE SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL STATUTORY OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND WARRANTIES AGAINST HIDDEN OR LATENT DEFECTS.
A latent defect is a legal term describing a deficiency which is not normally observable as part of the inspection process. Apple verifies that the LCD works, but does not check each pixel for functionality, so a small number of pixel problems would be classified as a latent defect. A large number immediately obvious would be rejected. Also, pixels may fail at any point in the lifespan of an LCD, including during shipping.

Also of note is that the definition of defect is at the discretion of Apple. A condition inevitable and normal with a given supplied part would not be considered a defect and as such would not invoke any warranty rights.
 
I think you'd find that Apple's "Pixel anomaly" page appears at the top of a Google search for "apple pixel policy," and you'll also find that the warranty does not discuss any specific defects, instead inviting the customer to contact Customer Care with questions or perceived defects. Apple customer care and sales associates are also more than happy to answer questions in my experience, and if they don't know the answer, they will bring it to a supervisor's attention.

About LCD anomalies [Apple.com]

As for the warranty:

Quote:

Apple does not warrant that the operation of the product will be uninterrupted or error-free.
In other words, you don't get perfection when you buy anything.

Quote:

AS PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, APPLE SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL STATUTORY OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND WARRANTIES AGAINST HIDDEN OR LATENT DEFECTS.

A latent defect is a legal term describing a deficiency which is not normally observable as part of the inspection process. Apple verifies that the LCD works, but does not check each pixel for functionality, so a small number of pixel problems would be classified as a latent defect. A large number immediately obvious would be rejected. Also, pixels may fail at any point in the lifespan of an LCD, including during shipping.

Also of note is that the definition of defect is at the discretion of Apple. A condition inevitable and normal with a given supplied part would not be considered a defect and as such would not invoke any warranty rights.

Well, many warranties contain very similar provisions to these but the reality is that consumer protection laws ensure that they are often unenforceable to the extent that the provisions are limiting statutory rights (and I suspect that it's these same laws (state, national or both) that actually have the real "discretion" on what would or would not be considered a defect). I also wonder whether any provisions relating to latent defects would work in favor of a merchant that didn't specifically give the buyer any ability to discover their existence prior to concluding the contract for purchase but as I said before, I've never had a bad apple LCD, so this is all somewhat academic. Either way, I'm not sure either of us are qualified to be discussing the finer points of a legal agreement, and I've got no personal ax to grind here, so let's just agree to disagree.
 
I was just on a competing manufacturer's site and their terms are

10 pixels on a 15" screen, 15 pixels on a 17" screen
6 months on batteries, even if you purchase the 3 year extended warranty
One year on keyboards, even if you purchase the 3 year extended warranty.

Apple is better than many, and by no means below industry standards.
 
Well, many warranties contain very similar provisions to these but the reality is that consumer protection laws ensure that they are often unenforceable to the extent that the provisions are limiting statutory rights (and I suspect that it's these same laws (state, national or both) that actually have the real "discretion" on what would or would not be considered a defect).

That's certainly the case in the UK, where the Sale of Goods Act states that a product should be "free of material defects at the point of sale", regardless of what the manufacturer says is acceptable. As to whether a dead pixel counts as a "material defect", well, I'd say it does but then I'm not a lawyer. :)
 
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