What would it take for iWeb to challenge Drupal, Wordpress, and Joomla?

Discussion in 'Web Design and Development' started by eclipse, Jul 22, 2009.

  1. eclipse macrumors 6502a

    eclipse

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    Sydney
    #1
    Hi all,
    just wondering what extra functionality it would take to turn iWeb into one of the above CMS's but with the Mac "point and click" interface so new users NEVER had to know XHTML, CSS, PHP or any of that... and how worried any coders are that this might one day happen? ;)
     
  2. SrWebDeveloper macrumors 68000

    SrWebDeveloper

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    Location:
    Alexandria, VA, USA
    #2
    The product is evolving that way, but there are 3 main problems with *any* software requiring, theoretically, no "technical" skills:

    • The code produced is buggy - not cross browser compatible
    • The code cannot be customized easily by those who wish to do so
    • The WYSIWYG interface isn't precise because of the other 2 problems
    iWeb is a nice product with a specific demograph being targeted - personal or small business sites that don't need dynamic content or database connectivity.

    There are plenty of CMS's out there which tremendously simplify the act of creating a new web site but even the "easy" ones have many pages of many features that most people will not find intuitive if they lack basic technical skills. There are plenty of web hosts that have online web site creation utilities or wizards that walk a user through choice of template, menu options, add-ons and basic configuration and it will build the site.

    None of those options will help non-techies when database connectivity is involved. Even DreamWeaver and Rapidweaver, two powerful development platforms which both have GUI interfaces for establishing database connections and queries outside of scripting, can't manage the database and deal with security and other technical issues.

    Which is why developers exist in this world, of course. We're not just people with a specific skill set, we're necessary, sometimes.

    As iWeb evolves expect alot of cool wizards, easy to use embedded plugins and very intuitive interfaces where folks can concentrate on CONTENT. But in terms of database connectivity, dealing with varied webhosts and server side requirements, troubleshooting technical issues, and other skills a developer possesses, one could argue - and I am - 100% automation of all this is a pipe dream that can never be fully realized. And, it stifles creativity and technological advancement by bounding you to a specific proprietary technology (the software to do all this, waiting for revisions, etc).

    -jim
     
  3. eclipse thread starter macrumors 6502a

    eclipse

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    #3
    Oh stop being so informed and professional and rational... can't I dream for a minute? ;)

    (OK, dream thoroughly destroyed... runs crying from the room:().

    Thanks for answering. At least some forums like this one bother to have a discussion! (Bit frustrated today... I really feel ignored over at wordpress.org).

    I'm wondering how much of this database management stuff I can get away with NOT knowing if I use something like Wordpress. I've asked my question here if you're a wordpress fan, but if not, thanks for clarifying the iWeb thing.
     
  4. miles01110 macrumors Core

    miles01110

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    Jul 24, 2006
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    The Ivory Tower (I'm not coming down)
    #4
    Never thought I'd actually be defending iWeb, but I've noticed that it's not so much that the code is not valid, it's just extremely inefficient. For example the code it generates to position a div is comically redundant.

    But SrWebDeveloper is right as usual- you'll need to know at least the basics of CSS, XHTML, etc to "do it right."
     
  5. eclipse thread starter macrumors 6502a

    eclipse

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    #5
    However, I just sent a request to Mac that they treat iWeb as more of a Content Management System that could handle all the database issues of a growing community. EG: Certain authorised users that I allow onto my blog could also post articles, not just comments, and maybe iWeb could set up a forum structure as well.

    Remember this quote! :)

    Sure if my dreams come true I might be locked into mobileme forever, but at least I'd HAVE my activist site and forum running... now I'm to chicken to really put my hand up for my group because I just don't know backend stuff confidently enough to fix it when stuff goes wrong.



    http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/01/how-to-choose-the-right-cms/
    "Technically it’s not an open source CMS, but what it represents is a step in the right direction. This program was Apple’s first attempt at a web publishing system and works in unison with the .mac (now MobileMe) system. If Apple ever spent any time focusing on delivering a fully outfitted program by adding more to what is already a fantastic system with iWeb, there would be no need for any other CMS. I would keep an eye on Apple in the future for just such a program in their iLife suite. iWeb"
     
  6. Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    #6
    Why would you need any technical knowledge if iWeb does not grant you access to the code at all, unless you're f*cking the web for some tool/trick to enable you to edit the code?
    Yes, and maybe even let us create Apple.com-like websites with the press of a button.
    You're not stuck at all. iWeb lets you upload files to an external FTP.

    Poor retarded guy the one you quoted. There would be no need for any other CMS. Yeah, sure! Why would anyone need something like Wordpress, which is the best combination between community & original developer effort? We don't let our users f*ck up our CMS, but we do let THEM provide us the images which will be used in the next version, as well as allow them to share themes/plug-ins, and even contribute at some parts of the bug-fixing process. It would take Apple a separate division in order to equal Wordpress...

    All you've got to do is get a domain, get some database information, edit a file, go through the 30-seconds web browser-based installation process, and you're all set. Three years ago, it took me 10 minutes to find out how to do FTP uploading. Just click here.

    And to answer this question, you guys are missing an important point: iWeb is part of the iLife suite, which is distributed freely with every new Mac, or you can pay $79 for the entire suite when an update comes out. Compare this price to the price of RapidWeaver (the direct, although way more powerful, rival), $79 just for it, and you can tell why iWeb is never going to be anywhere near half as good as professional. The application is bloated, and I can say without a doubt that the FreeBSD installation process is way more user-friendly than iWeb's web site builder. It would take an entire development team to work on the application itself. And then, because it is part of the iLife suite, we need to make iPhoto, iMovie, Garage Band, and the rest of the suite, just as good. So they would need 5 separate development teams which publish better products than most of the competitors, and sell them at 1/5 the price. This is not going to happen anywhere in the near future.

    The iLife suite is something basic, to be used by the normal OS X customer. It has to come with every operating system, and Apple did the easiest thing to do: beautiful yet bloated applications, slightly updated each year. I've got rid of the entire suite, it simply occupies too much of my 160GB HDD...
     
  7. lucidmedia macrumors 6502a

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    #7
    Jim, as usual, nailed it... but I wanted to re-quote the above for truth...
     
  8. eclipse thread starter macrumors 6502a

    eclipse

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    #8
    I know but for those of us that just want to move "this" to "there" without spending 6 months learning XHTML & CSS & PHP etc just to put a fairly static "brochure" on the net, then surely iWeb is better than nothing? (Or spending $4000 to get "something" but something we can't change later on.)

    I can only imagine iWeb getting better down the track.

    My wife has NO clue about web design, but whacked this together in one afternoon. I know it "looks" iWeby, but she'll probably get sick of it and fix it in a month or so.

    http://lanksheardesign.com/Home.html
     
  9. Cerebrus' Maw macrumors 6502

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    Mar 9, 2008
    Location:
    Brisbane, Australia
    #9
    I have no problem with iWeb, and I do think it and its kind are a great tool for people that just want a website.

    But the problem is that it's restricting (not iWebs fault really) What you say above is true about taking 6 months to learn the languages nessecary. But it really opens your eyes to great web site functionality. And more, you understand what's going on in the background. You can appreciated good design, and more you can offer a broad range of services, that if done right, takes minimal time.

    I read above that you felt you weren't confident of doing back end stuff. Everyone has to start somewhere. You dont make an omlette without breaking eggs. Hell, I probably killed a few chickens at some stage. But setting up your own little Apache server on your mac, and running local PHP/mySQL scripts is a great way to learn, let alone the resources you have available to you here, and in the great wide interweb.

    As I code by hand, I could never go back to CMS style systems. Sure it can be a bit repetitive, but the freedom it offers, and the ability to easily update your own code reaps its own rewards.
     
  10. eclipse thread starter macrumors 6502a

    eclipse

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    #10
    Aaaarrgh, you're tempting me back down the rabbit hole again!

    Stop it I like it! :confused::D:eek::cool::D:confused:
     
  11. dmmcintyre3 macrumors 68020

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    Mar 4, 2007
    #11
    If a web host includes a auto installer for a good CMS then I really could not see why to use iWeb. iWeb requires you to use the same computer to do it. Great if you have 1 computer for all your web development but not if you have 10 scattered in different countries. Most major websites use some sort of content management system. If you get to 500 pages with iWeb would you have to re-upload the whole 500 pages to update the 1 line of text on 1 page?
     
  12. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #12
    I don't know jack about web development, but I've built two Joomla sites. I use templates and mix and match parts of them I like by playing with the installation files. Photoshop and renaming files is about as technical as it gets for me. As long as there are guys out there developing plugins and skins life is rosy for guys like me. Any time I want to do something creative, I find it's already been done and use a 'how to' for it.

    What I'd like to see is development support added to the monthly fee you pay your web host, so that if something goes awfully wrong, you call your host and their in house development experts fix it for you. Or maybe not, I've had one problem that I really couldn't fix, no-one could fix it it seemed, so I went to one of those developer auction sites and got some stupid quotes.. $200 +

    I waited it out and an Eastern European dev said he'd fix it for $40. Which he did, in under an hour..

    I like the direction it's all going personally, but I bet many developers will have to start looking at other avenues for income for their talents..
     
  13. chameleon81 macrumors 6502

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    May 16, 2006
    #13
    I agree with you with things getting easier but keep in mind that installing Joomla figuring out its admin panel etc requires also some skills - at least some reading -

    Now everyone has the time or desire to dive into "how to" documents.

    So i believe there is still enough place for developers :)
     
  14. dmmcintyre3 macrumors 68020

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    Mar 4, 2007
    #14
    But your average ( I don't mean grandma who does not have a computer or someone who knows PHP and all that) person could do it if they wanted to.

    It's just so easy to do now.
     
  15. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #15
    Ah I should have mentioned my web host has their own control panel. Just log in and choose if you want Joomla, Drupal etc etc installed. It all happens in a click of a button :eek:
     
  16. lucidmedia macrumors 6502a

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    Wellington, New Zealand
    #16
    Yes! An insecure install at the click of a button. These systems are great for personal or testing sites, but be very very careful using such "one click" installs on a site that needs to be secure.
     
  17. eclipse thread starter macrumors 6502a

    eclipse

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