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The OP is not a new member, so that's not the situation here. I think its a fair question, especially since Intel/amd Nvidia/AMD (gpus) have clear advantages in the desktop segment.
It's not a fair question. What’s the point of ARM? is at best a stupid question. The point of ARM is to be a RISC processor and the point of RISC is much higher efficiency. Energy as well as DIE space efficiency. And the point of efficiency is not just reduced heat and energy consumption, but also to enable much higher performance even for desktops and high performance computing. ARM is by no means reduced to being used as a phone or laptop processor. That's just a stupid assumption.
 
The point of ARM is to be a RISC processor and the point of RISC is much higher efficiency.

That hasn’t really been relevant since the early 90ties. ARM definitely has ISA-level advantages over x86, but efficiency depends on what you design for. Zen4 is as efficient as contemporary ARM server cores (sans Apple of course who still have the edge in this domain).
 
Energy as well as DIE space efficiency.
Any link to support that Mx SoCs are more die space efficient?

The top level M1 Ultra (114B) requires many more transistors than AMD Ryzen 9 7950X (13.1B) and Nvidia RTX 4090 (76.3B) combined.
 
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Any link to support that Mx SoCs are more die space efficient?
No link, but that's the whole point of reducing the overblown CISC instruction set. You don't need to implement the logic for the more esoteric instructions nobody ever needs, therefore an ARM core needs fewer transistors, consumes less energy and produces less heat. And it's also smaller on the DIE. Every 5nm transistor still consumes the same amount of energy, but RISC processors need much fewer of them to build a whole CPU core.
 
Meh most people I know with any compute requirements are hiring compute or have local clusters. That includes video encoding, ML workloads etc. A Mac Studio will do the rest fine.

Power is pretty expensive these days (office, datacenter, home) so that's where ARM is starting to get some serious traction as the power/performance ratio is much much better.
 
Funny AMD was mentioned. They did just release the non-X CPUs and they’re limited to 65W and performed near their X cousins but at much lower temperatures.

I think a better question isn’t what is the point of ARM, but what is the point of a Mac Pro.

Is it the performance or the upgradability at a later date? Apple Silicon means we’re not going to customise and upgrade GPUs and RAM at a later date when a new chip rolls around.

Then at that point, the Mac Studio form factor would be sufficient isn’t it?
The AMD non-X CPUs may say 65W on the tin but that number is meaningless. AMD may as well write 45W, or 72W, and it would be just as useful because the real power consumption is closer to 90W (AMD Power Consumption).
 
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No link, but that's the whole point of reducing the overblown CISC instruction set. You don't need to implement the logic for the more esoteric instructions nobody ever needs, therefore an ARM core needs fewer transistors, consumes less energy and produces less heat. And it's also smaller on the DIE. Every 5nm transistor still consumes the same amount of energy, but RISC processors need much fewer of them to build a whole CPU core.

Sorry, but this is total BS. I am quite sure that ARMv8 how Apple implements it does not have fewer instructions than x86. And ARMv8 is full of complex addressing modes and instructions that nobody would describe as "simple". I am afraid that your understanding of RISC and CISC is stuck in the academia of the 90-ties, well before the advent of modern CPUs.

It is entirely possible that one needs less transistors to build a functioning ARMv8 core than a functioning x86 core (although I wouldn't bet on it — these Intel Gracemont cores are super tiny and almost as fast as mid-level ARM cores), but the number of transistors depends on what you want to do with them. Specifically, Apple CPU cores are both and use many more transistors compared to x86 cores, because Apple relies on more complex logic to extract more performance at lower power usage. This is exactly contrary to what you are saying. In this particular case more transistors consume less power.
 
No link, but that's the whole point of reducing the overblown CISC instruction set. You don't need to implement the logic for the more esoteric instructions nobody ever needs, therefore an ARM core needs fewer transistors, consumes less energy and produces less heat. And it's also smaller on the DIE. Every 5nm transistor still consumes the same amount of energy, but RISC processors need much fewer of them to build a whole CPU core.
You forgot one important part, the simplicity should allow for higher frequencies. You are also stuck in the past.

Nowadays, with very wide out-of-order cores it is often better to do more work per instruction because the overhead of instruction scheduling, register renaming etc. is relatively independent of how much the instruction does, so the relative overhead per operation is less when doing more operations per instruction.

That's why people are criticising RISC-V for not having scaled indexed addressing modes for example.

So please, let's stop repeating things about RISC that were valid 30 years ago but no longer apply today.
 
That hasn’t really been relevant since the early 90ties. ARM definitely has ISA-level advantages over x86, but efficiency depends on what you design for.
What's Jesus' birthday got to do with it? Did the law of physics change since the 90s?
The top level M1 Ultra (114B) requires many more transistors than AMD Ryzen 9 7950X (13.1B) and Nvidia RTX 4090 (76.3B) combined.
But the M1 Ultra includes 64 GPU cores and 32 Neural Engine cores! If we assume that these chips are produced on the same process nodes, than the energy consumption differences are direct proportional to the number of transistors used for a calculation.
 
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What's Jesus' birthday got to do with it? Did the law of physics change since the 90s?
The relative speed between CPU and RAM has changed since the 90s, the available transistor budget has changed since the 90s, the design tools have changed since the 90s, and we've gained a heck of a lot of real-world experience that, in some cases, has taught us that research and theory don't always translate into the real world.
 
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So please, let's stop repeating things about RISC that were valid 30 years ago but no longer apply today.
I see. Everything changed when Gari Halliwell left the Spice Girls.
The relative speed between CPU and RAM has changed since the 90s, the available transistor budget has changed since the 90s, the design tools have changed since the 90s, and we've gained a heck of a lot of real-world experience that, in some cases, has taught us that research and theory don't always translate into the real world.
So the laws of physics haven't changed? Good to know. The point of RISC over CISC is still efficiency. Everything else that improved efficiency doesn't change that fact. ARM didn't stop to be a RISC architecture in the 90s. Neither did x86-64 stopped being CISC. It's still all the same for the same reasons.
 
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So the laws of physics haven't changed? Good to know. The point of RISC over CISC is still efficiency. Everything else that improved efficiency doesn't change that fact. ARM didn't stop to be a RISC architecture in the 90s. Neither did x86-64 stopped being CISC. It's still all the same for the same reasons.
Do you understand the differences between the classic 5-stage RISC pipeline and a modern super-scalar out-of-order processor as well as the reasons for the differences?
 
TL;DR but AMD/Nvidia are not going to support the kind of ProRes acceleration that Apple has put into M2 and future Apple Silicon. Who would buy a Mac Pro? Hollywood? The rest of the world couldn't care less, and neither would Apple, cos in the grand scheme of things, Mac Pro is a dust speck compared to Apple's ginormous overall revenue. So long as Mac Pro creates bragging rights and publicity, Apple will be able to claim victory. Mac Studio is great, but too practical and makes too much sense. Apple needs something as out-of-proportions as the trash can and the cheese grater.
 
Specifically, Apple CPU cores are both and use many more transistors compared to x86 cores, because Apple relies on more complex logic to extract more performance at lower power usage. This is exactly contrary to what you are saying. In this particular case more transistors consume less power.
No it's the exact opposite. Apple's special video decoders and image signal processors are designed to do just one kind of calculation with the utmost speed and efficiency. So they have an even smaller instruction set and even fewer transistors involved in its execution. The entire chip has more and more transistors, because of all the many engines specialized on doing only one task. But a single engine, which for example only decodes x264 for video playback, is itself as tiny as it can be. The rest of the chip draws no power, while only one engine works on the task. That's how Apple A-series and M-series chips can have dozens of hours of video playback on battery life. Higher efficiency always means fewer transistors are actively involved.
 
For the Mac Pro, why not simply put a 96-core EPYC AMD CPU in it with a RTX 4090 (if Apple can solve their politics with NVIDIA) while retaining user expandability and repairability for the Mac Pro. Since Mac Pro usually supports dual chips, Apple could even put a 192-core AMD CPU in it even.

Does Apple really believe the M2 Extreme would beat a 192-core AMD CPU and a RTX 4090? Heck, you can probably put multiple RTX 4090 in the Mac Pro even (if Apple solves their politics with NVIDIA).

For laptops, I get it. ARM offers nice battery life, but a Mac Pro has no battery life.
In Apple's case? The point is to not have to buy another company's chips or pay an x86 licensing fee I'd guess.
 
Funny AMD was mentioned. They did just release the non-X CPUs and they’re limited to 65W and performed near their X cousins but at much lower temperatures.

I think a better question isn’t what is the point of ARM, but what is the point of a Mac Pro.

Is it the performance or the upgradability at a later date? Apple Silicon means we’re not going to customise and upgrade GPUs and RAM at a later date when a new chip rolls around.

Then at that point, the Mac Studio form factor would be sufficient isn’t it?
Based on rumors it kinda sounds like Apple agrees. It seems like the only reason they're keeping the Mac Pro form factor around is for those delicious PCI-e slots used in an increasingly small segment of workloads. We might not see ARM powered Mac Pros around for very long.

Which is a shame. It's a good looking machine.
 
The entire chip has more and more transistors, because of all the many engines specialized on doing only one task.
Since Apple uses multiple coprocessors, the Mx SoC tends to be very large. In fact, there must be very few chips larger than the M1 Ultra. One of them is the AMD MI300, a giant APU.

If we only compare CPU cores, are Apple's CPU cores bigger/smaller than Intel/AMD's?
 
We might not see ARM powered Mac Pros around for very long.

As a Hackintosh user...
...the longer there is an Intel machine in the first party lineup...:):p

625.jpg
 
As a Hackintosh user...
...the longer there is an Intel machine in the first party lineup...:):p

625.jpg
Ha! And best of luck to you!

Worth noting though that my point wasn't that ARM Mac Pros wouldn't be around for very long because Apple would keep flirting with Intel, it was that ARM Mac Pros probably won't be around very long because Apple will just cancel the Mac Pro as soon as they decide it won't damage their position in the music and TV production industries to not have any desktops with internal expansion slots.
 
Ha! And best of luck to you!

Worth noting though that my point wasn't that ARM Mac Pros wouldn't be around for very long because Apple would keep flirting with Intel, it was that ARM Mac Pros probably won't be around very long because Apple will just cancel the Mac Pro as soon as they decide it won't damage their position in the music and TV production industries to not have any desktops with internal expansion slots.

I won't be surprised if Apple keeps Intel/ARM going side by side longer than folks think.
If there's money to be made selling older and older stuff that "somebody" will buy, they will do it.

All I personally care about is an Intel version of macOS that's up to date (or close).

If I can get another 2 years I'd be happy ... even just another full one would be fine and all gravy for anything beyond that.

Actually now that I type this -- I'll probably keep using this thing for a few years from now, even if not on the latest OS at some point. Does everything I need on Mac side and allows me to also do the Windows gaming I want to do, all in the same box. Bliss!
 
I won't be surprised if Apple keeps Intel/ARM going side by side longer than folks think.
If there's money to be made selling older and older stuff that "somebody" will buy, they will do it.

The clock is ticking. No regular business that needs a server would buy a very expensive Mac Pro. In the past, this sort of machine would be used for 8k recording, but I'm sure you know that even a Mac Studio can do that with ease by now.

If you only need the extra RAM, then there are x86 / x64 servers offering much better value.
 
The clock is ticking. No regular business that needs a server would buy a very expensive Mac Pro. In the past, this sort of machine would be used for 8k recording, but I'm sure you know that even a Mac Studio can do that with ease by now.

If you only need the extra RAM, then there are x86 / x64 servers offering much better value.

They might if it slots in with other existing machines, but I agree, the clock is ticking

I still expect at least another full year+ here (almost 2 really)
(i.e. I doubt they'll be cutting off 2019 MacPro's from the upcoming macOS release in the fall of 2023)
 
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