Whats up with Thinness

[Ivanovitchk]

I did not know this. Based on what I have been reading though, I think (right now and on these forums) the greater demand is for a 3.5mm adapter external DAC. I could be wrong here. I would benefit very little, if at all, from any of these things so I only passively follow Apple audio news/tech.

there is no such thing as a 3.5mm-fed DAC as the jack outputs analogue audio and the purpose of a DAC is to convert digital audio to analogue.

On the contrary, if you meant a lightning-fed dac & amp that outputs on a 3.5mm jack, they already are quite a few. However, most decent ones are relatively expensive and only useful with high quality IEMs / headphones as well as high bitrate / lossless audio files.

 

[lagwagon]

Here is a link to a article/transcribe of a video I linked to in another thread.

http://snazzylabs.com/article/iphone-7-lightning-headphones/

Here is a long quote from that.

"People buy headphones but don’t drive them to their full potential because they’re underpowered.
The biggest part is that new headphones will start to come out with a Lightning cable that has a DAC and amp already integrated. Philips already took a shot at this, but the first really good headphone is the Audeze Sine which will be released in April. I got to listen to them at CES and I was blown away. These headphones will ship with two cables—one regular one for all of your other devices, and one Lightning cable with a DAC and amp combo. With the regular 3.5mm headphone cable, they sounded nice plugged into an iPad (which, remember, used the iPad’s internal DAC and amp); however, when I changed the cable to the Lightning cable, which had it’s own DAC and amp, I was blown away. The headphones sounded like they were plugged into a really good amp. Because they were. The one built into the cable! Headphones act and sound differently with different amplification types and different DACs. Who better than the headphone manufacturer to design and pair a perfect DAC and amp right from the factory!

People buy headphones but don’t drive them to their full potential because they’re underpowered. Imagine if Audio-Technica sold a $30-50 removable cable designed to work with ATH-M50 you already own that had a DAC and amp designed specifically to work and to power those headphone to their full potential. That’s incredible. That takes portable fidelity to a whole new level. And, if Apple changes to Lightning, new, compatible headphones will popup within weeks. People seem to forget that Apple is an extremely powerful company and if you want to make a successful product, you’ll conform to what Apple makes you do. If we quickly backtrack to 2007, there was the infamous recessed headphone jack on the original iPhone. Apple did it for pure ascetics and there was outrage because there were essentially no headphones at that time which had a jack that fit into that skinny little port. Sure, people like Belkin and Griffin took advantage of selling $15-20 adapters for while, but the entire market moved toward this thinner headphone jack as a result. Today, in 2016, you almost can’t buy a headphone with a fat connector. So, we can naturally disregard the notion that headphone manufacturers won’t start to offer Lightning cables for their headphones, because they will. And if you don’t want to buy new headphones, fine, use an adapter that sounds better than the iPhone 6S. And if you don’t want cables, Bluetooth works great, and will only get better."

Removing the jack will improve audio quality for everyone, as it moves you off the 3.5mm port and into the better Lightning port. There will likely even be a audio quality difference between current 3.5mm free EarPods and the free Lightning EarPods that will probably be bundled. It doesn't matter if "you can use Lightning already with the 3.5mm still present in the phone". Not everyone will take advantage of that, moving people off the 3.5mm gives everyone the advantage of having higher quality through Lightning. A few headphone companies have already started offering Lightning or even headphones with swappable chords (one for 3.5mm and one for Lightning) It's been said (and there are articles on it) many other headphone manufacturers are already working offering Lightning. Don't forget Apple also owns a "popular" headphone brand. Which can be a huge help in the transition period.

Other things to consider. Take a pair of 3.5mm headphones and place the plug on the front face down where you would plug in. Notice how the plug ends right where the bezel ends? That is not a coincidence. It is because the 3.5mm jack is in the way, forcing the bezel to be that specific height. The screen physically can't be moved down, shrinking the bezel because the jack. (Look at ifixit teardowns, the 3.5mm module blocks any possibility of shrinking the bezel and getting the screen closer to the edge of the phone.)

Thinking even further down the road, Apple already has patents on removing the home button and it being integrated right into the screen. Which can further provide a smaller bezel. That can't be done with a 3.5mm taking up the space. Removing it now is a "chess" move today for a move later on. And at the same time provides better audio.

 

[trifid]

Here is a link to a article/transcribe of a video I linked to in another thread.

http://snazzylabs.com/article/iphone-7-lightning-headphones/

Here is a long quote from that.

"People buy headphones but don’t drive them to their full potential because they’re underpowered.
The biggest part is that new headphones will start to come out with a Lightning cable that has a DAC and amp already integrated. Philips already took a shot at this, but the first really good headphone is the Audeze Sine which will be released in April. I got to listen to them at CES and I was blown away. These headphones will ship with two cables—one regular one for all of your other devices, and one Lightning cable with a DAC and amp combo. With the regular 3.5mm headphone cable, they sounded nice plugged into an iPad (which, remember, used the iPad’s internal DAC and amp); however, when I changed the cable to the Lightning cable, which had it’s own DAC and amp, I was blown away. The headphones sounded like they were plugged into a really good amp. Because they were. The one built into the cable! Headphones act and sound differently with different amplification types and different DACs. Who better than the headphone manufacturer to design and pair a perfect DAC and amp right from the factory!

People buy headphones but don’t drive them to their full potential because they’re underpowered. Imagine if Audio-Technica sold a $30-50 removable cable designed to work with ATH-M50 you already own that had a DAC and amp designed specifically to work and to power those headphone to their full potential. That’s incredible. That takes portable fidelity to a whole new level. And, if Apple changes to Lightning, new, compatible headphones will popup within weeks. People seem to forget that Apple is an extremely powerful company and if you want to make a successful product, you’ll conform to what Apple makes you do. If we quickly backtrack to 2007, there was the infamous recessed headphone jack on the original iPhone. Apple did it for pure ascetics and there was outrage because there were essentially no headphones at that time which had a jack that fit into that skinny little port. Sure, people like Belkin and Griffin took advantage of selling $15-20 adapters for while, but the entire market moved toward this thinner headphone jack as a result. Today, in 2016, you almost can’t buy a headphone with a fat connector. So, we can naturally disregard the notion that headphone manufacturers won’t start to offer Lightning cables for their headphones, because they will. And if you don’t want to buy new headphones, fine, use an adapter that sounds better than the iPhone 6S. And if you don’t want cables, Bluetooth works great, and will only get better."

Removing the jack will improve audio quality for everyone, as it moves you off the 3.5mm port and into the better Lightning port. There will likely even be a audio quality difference between current 3.5mm free EarPods and the free Lightning EarPods that will probably be bundled. It doesn't matter if "you can use Lightning already with the 3.5mm still present in the phone". Not everyone will take advantage of that, moving people off the 3.5mm gives everyone the advantage of having higher quality through Lightning. A few headphone companies have already started offering Lightning or even headphones with swappable chords (one for 3.5mm and one for Lightning) It's been said (and there are articles on it) many other headphone manufacturers are already working offering Lightning. Don't forget Apple also owns a "popular" headphone brand. Which can be a huge help in the transition period.

Other things to consider. Take a pair of 3.5mm headphones and place the plug on the front face down where you would plug in. Notice how the plug ends right where the bezel ends? That is not a coincidence. It is because the 3.5mm jack is in the way, forcing the bezel to be that specific height. The screen physically can't be moved down, shrinking the bezel because the jack. (Look at ifixit teardowns, the 3.5mm module blocks any possibility of shrinking the bezel and getting the screen closer to the edge of the phone.)

Thinking even further down the road, Apple already has patents on removing the home button and it being integrated right into the screen. Which can further provide a smaller bezel. That can't be done with a 3.5mm taking up the space. Removing it now is a "chess" move today for a move later on. And at the same time provides better audio.

I think there could be a good reason to remove the 3.5mm, but this guy isn't giving it, removing the 3.5mm is not required to buy a headphone that has integrated DAC+AMP, you can buy one right now and use it right now on your iPhone 6s through the lightning port.

If the argument then is, well, once you remove 3.5mm port, then you force the industry to just make lightning headphones so they'll put an awesome DAC+AMP on every headphone they make, right? No, wrong, not necessarily. Manufacturers could probably put worse DAC+AMP on their headphones for many reasons, there is no guarantee.

Bottom line is, the DAC+AMP argument isn't the reason for removing 3.5mm jack because it's already possible to buy a headphone with integrated DAC+AMP. If it's really night and day difference, why haven't manufacturers done more of them and sell like hotcakes?

Only positive thing I can think of and from what the guy also mentions is, if Apple wants to make iPhone smaller in height, the headphone port adds quite some height to the bottom, that may be a good argument, I don't know.

And making the iPhone waterproof might be a good reason to remove, though we've seen Samsung do it while keeping it, so that would make it seem like Apple is taking the easy route, or doing it for a different reason, maybe profit margins.

Lastly, Apple has a lot of power, with great power comes great responsibility. I argue if Apple removes headphone jack, the world will make lightning headphones. Is this positive? NO! Apple's influence should be used to lead the world with an open standard, like Apple did with USB in the original iMacs.

 

[lagwagon]

I think there could be a good reason to remove the 3.5mm, but this guy isn't giving it, removing the 3.5mm is not required to buy a headphone that has integrated DAC+AMP, you can buy one right now and use it right now on your iPhone 6s through the lightning port.

If the argument then is, well, once you remove 3.5mm port, then you force the industry to just make lightning headphones so they'll put an awesome DAC+AMP on every headphone they make, right? No, wrong, not necessarily. Manufacturers could probably put worse DAC+AMP on their headphones for many reasons, there is no guarantee.

Bottom line is, the DAC+AMP argument isn't the reason for removing 3.5mm jack because it's already possible to buy a headphone with integrated DAC+AMP. If it's really night and day difference, why haven't manufacturers done more of them and sell like hotcakes?

Only positive thing I can think of and from what the guy also mentions is, if Apple wants to make iPhone smaller in height, the headphone port adds quite some height to the bottom, that may be a good argument, I don't know.

And making the iPhone waterproof might be a good reason to remove, though we've seen Samsung do it while keeping it, so that would make it seem like Apple is taking the easy route, or doing it for a different reason, maybe profit margins.

Lastly, Apple has a lot of power, with great power comes great responsibility. I argue if Apple removes headphone jack, the world will make lightning headphones. Is this positive? NO! Apple's influence should be used to lead the world with an open standard, like Apple did with USB in the original iMacs.

It doesn't matter one bit if you can currently already buy headphones with DAC+AMP. The point IS this option with no 3.5mm jack brings that better audio quality to everyone, not just people who spend nearly $1000.

In the example given about the Audeze Sine headphones in the article. They sounded "nice" when plugged in the 3.5mm but once the chord was swapped to the Lightning chord and plugged into the Lightning, the difference was drastically better.

Your argument of "maybe headphone companies would put in worse DAC+AMP's" I highly doubt that. Why would they make their headphones sound worse. That wouldn't make any sense for any business. You're just making up a scenario to complement your argument. The DAC+AMP isn't all that great in the iPhone to begin with. Yes it's probably one of the best out of any smartphone, but compared to what most headphone companies would use to pair with their own headphones, it's just decent.

Some headphone companies have already released models for Lightning. Many other mid and high end headphone companies are already working on and committing to Lightning to release this year (wether it's two seperate models or a singular model with swappable chords.) And again Apple owns a very popular headphone brand (Beats) which can help in a big way to make the push/transition. Lightning is the future of high quality audio until wireless catches up and can compete.

Another gain to using Lightning is on board noise cancelling is possible. No need to have it built into the headphones.

You're point about Samsung did water proofing with a headphone jack still in there. Well it's not fully water proof. It's just water resistant for I believe 30mins at 1 meter. It wouldn't be "the easy route" it could be the route to true water proofing or at the very least, better water resistance than what the s7 offers.

I really don't get why you're so against better audio for all and quite frankly the move to get rid of the 3.5mm might be for many other reasons and better audio is just a positive side effect because the port is available to use for audio.

 

[trifid]

Your argument of "maybe headphone companies would put in worse DAC+AMP's" I highly doubt that. Why would they make their headphones sound worse. That wouldn't make any sense for any business. You're just making up a scenario to complement your argument. The DAC+AMP isn't all that great in the iPhone to begin with. Yes it's probably one of the best out of any smartphone, but compared to what most headphone companies would use to pair with their own headphones, it's just decent.

You have your mindset fixed on audiophile potential, I get that, that's what the guy in the video is excited about, he is excited about about $300+ headphones, but this is not mainstream use, and this is not what everyone uses.

Pause for a second, think about what mainstream users get, they use Apple's headphones or cheap ones, the ones that are $10-20. Some spend a bit more, like Apple's $79.00 earbuds or Shure In-ears $99. Others spend $200 on Beats headphones which still are not high-end. A better DAC+AMP on these headphones won't make much difference if any, you need high-end headphones in order for DAC+AMP to start to matter.

So headphone manufacturers won't waste money on an expensive DAC+AMP for low-end headphones. This is why I'm saying it might actually be worse than the iPhone's built-in.

So I come back to my original argument, the reason of removing the 3.5mm has nothing to do with bringing more quality to "everyone", "everyone" uses low-end to mid-end headphones, not audiophile $300+ headphones.

Expensive DAC+AMP that actually makes a difference vs the iPhone's built-in is for a niche market, not mainstream.

 

[lagwagon]

You have your mindset fixed on audiophile potential, I get that, that's what the guy in the video is excited about, he is excited about about $300+ headphones, this is not mainstream use, and this is not what everyone uses.

Pause for a second, think about what mainstream users get, they use Apple's headphones or cheap ones, the ones that are $10-20. Some spend a bit more, like Apple's $79.00 earbuds or Shure In-ears $99. Others spend $200 on Beats headphones which still are not high-end. A better DAC+AMP on these headphones won't make much difference if any, you need high-end headphones in order for DAC+AMP to start to matter.

So headphone manufacturers won't waste money on an expensive DAC+AMP for low-end headphones. This is why I'm saying it might actually be worse than the iPhone's built-in.

So I come back to my original argument, the reason of removing the 3.5mm has nothing to do with bringing more quality to "everyone", "everyone" uses low-end to mid-end headphones, not audiophile $300+ headphones.

Expensive DAC+AMP that actually makes a difference vs the iPhone's built-in is for a niche market, not mainstream.

There's no doubt that people who care about their sound quality will have the iPhone as the go to phone for the best audio experience (even though they could currently already have that benefit now.) Removing the jack on Apple's part cements that, and gets headphone manufacturers to follow, because that's where their customers will get the superior experience out of their product. That's a selling point for both Apple and the headphone companies.

I could be wrong but I believe even sub $200 headphones you would be able to tell the difference between 3.5mm and Lightning. It might not be a dramatic as a high end set that has a much higher potential to begin with, but there should at least be some difference. Another "I could be wrong" but I also believe Lightning is capable of much higher audio quality as baseline before the DAC+AMP even comes into play. (This a reason as to why I believe there will still be a difference for sub $200 headphones.)

I'm not trying to specifically focus on audio quality, but it keeps being brought there. I think it's just one of a few immediate benefits. And the real end game benefit might not be realized until a year or two from now when they add/make changes elsewhere that required the removal of the 3.5mm for whatever reasons. Be it the space it takes or whatever else.

I also don't mean anything to be a "rawr you're wrong" type of argument. I personally think it's exciting the direction all this can go and what doors it opens up down the road. Which I think has the potential to open a few doors. (that's probably the reason I get so into the back and forth on it.)

 

[riscy]

Totally agree.

i have an iPad, iPad mini, two MBPs (wife did not like it so I got hers as well), iMac at work, but I have never had an iPhone.

This decision is due to the poor battery life. My current phone has a three day life on full charge - iPhone users I know have to charge every day, many start thinking about charging at 10AM as they are already at 60%.

 

[lordofthereef]

there is no such thing as a 3.5mm-fed DAC as the jack outputs analogue audio and the purpose of a DAC is to convert digital audio to analogue.

On the contrary, if you meant a lightning-fed dac & amp that outputs on a 3.5mm jack, they already are quite a few. However, most decent ones are relatively expensive and only useful with high quality IEMs / headphones as well as high bitrate / lossless audio files.

Yes I was referring to so bubbling DAC considering the discussion is getting rid of the 3.5mm jack entirely.

 

[bushido]

i love how they go on about making the device thinner yet continue to sell an official apple case that basically adds twice the size (exaggerated). they should rather focus on trimming the overall dimension. the device is way bigger than it needs to be thanks to its bezel

 

[ET iPhone Home]

I notice a lot of post talking about apple getting rid of the 3.5nm jack to make the phone thinner. I ask this because i have held every iphone to date. From the iPhone 4 until now they have not been to thick. I see why getting a phone to be thin as a waste of engineers. Why not devote the time and energy making the phone thin to putting a larger battery in the phone. Are their people who value how thin a phone and why. Would you rather more battery or more storage or something with that shaved space. What is the ideal thickness for a phone and when is it to thick or to thin.

I agree. The current iPhone is thin enough. A larger battery and revamping the design is far more important to me at the moment. I doubt there will be any wow factor in the iPhone 7, needless, I will upgrade.

 

[cableguy84]

The quest for thinner phones is destroying the smartphone market. There is no need for paper thin weak phones

 

[iThingsGurl]

Very well said.

Removing the 3.5mm jack isn't just for thinness.

It moves things over to digital output for audio, which in the end will result in higher quality audio.

It allows them to water proof easier (which is rumoured.) Yes others have been able "water resist" with a 3.5mm jack still there but it's easier without one and could potentially go beyond just water resistant that the new Samsung s7 has.

It allows for a second speaker which is rumoured to take the spot of the 3.5mm. (speakers are also easier to water proof than a 3.5mm jack)

Those are just some of the immediate possible "perks". For all anyone knows this could also be a Chess type move (making 1-2 moves to set up for something further down the road.) and removing the jack now gets people used to it early and then sets up for some new tech or feature they've been working on that required the jack gone.

Everyone is always so quick to jump into negatives without considering anything else.

Additionally, 6S witnessed a slight increase in thickness and a decrease in battery capacity with the introduction of 3D Touch. If 3D Touch - and hopefully some other new feature - is to be adopted in the 7 as well, removal of the jack will assure more space to accommodate other hardware like dual camera, more capable battery, etc. Personally I believe, while a jack enjoys a de facto place in most phones today, there is no point in having two ports if one can suffice.

 

[Abazigal]

i love how they go on about making the device thinner yet continue to sell an official apple case that basically adds twice the size (exaggerated). they should rather focus on trimming the overall dimension. the device is way bigger than it needs to be thanks to its bezel

News flash - a larger battery requires a larger physical space as well. That's actually an argument for not making an iPhone with a significantly larger battery.

 

[trifid]

News flash - a larger battery requires a larger physical space as well. That's actually an argument for not making an iPhone with a significantly larger battery.

Actually people buy battery cases including Apple's, in which case it adds a lot more bulk. I personally would love a 1mm thicker iPhone if it added more battery, and that way I wouldn't have to use a bulky battery case. I bet most people would love 1mm thicker iPhone if it had more battery as well.

 

[stevemiller]

All I can state is my own opinion:

i'd be more likely to upgrade my 6 to an iPhone that had 3h more battery in the same case than a iPhone that had the same battery life in a 1mm thinner case.

I'd also be more likely to upgrade to a case that was 4-5mm less wide and tall than 1mm thinner.

Finally, while thinness is nice to a point, I feel like there's a threshold beyond which it becomes a negative to ergonomics. I've seen people already describe adding the bulk of a case makes the current design easier to hold. I'm sure apple will come up with something decent, but there it's certainly not as simple "thinner is better."

 

[bushido]

News flash - a larger battery requires a larger physical space as well. That's actually an argument for not making an iPhone with a significantly larger battery.

the Galaxy S7 Edge wouldnt agree

 

[eoblaed]

A typical apologizer-statement of a extreme brand- loyalist....
If you'd take off your applerose-tainted spectacles you'd already found lots of similar demands in many Threads, for example about the 5SE and also others...

It is very amusing to finally find someone who likes short battery lifes... You are very unique...

My 6S Plus lasts two days without charging; less if I do a lot of battery intensive stuff, but it always lasts until bed time, easily. I really only need it to last about 12 - 14 hours. I don't need the extra weight or size to have even more overkill on the battery ... but lighter and thinner provide tangible, immediate benefit that I'll experience every hour of every day.

 

[Abazigal]

A typical apologizer-statement of a extreme brand- loyalist....
If you'd take off your applerose-tainted spectacles you'd already found lots of similar demands in many Threads, for example about the 5SE and also others...

It is very amusing to finally find someone who likes short battery lifes... You are very unique...

There are tons of people making all sorts of demands about what they think they want to see in Apple devices, from iPads running OSX to touchscreen Macs. Heck, in the past, people have actually criticised iOS for not supporting flash.

This doesn't necessarily mean those suggestions are good ones, or that they are representative of the wishes of the iPhone user base as a whole.

I don't think I like short battery life either, but I would be largely indifferent to extra battery life when my phone is already ending the day with 40-60% battery life, especially when it doesn't really improve my current user experience.

 

[trifid]

There are tons of people making all sorts of demands about what they think they want to see in Apple devices, from iPads running OSX to touchscreen Macs. Heck, in the past, people have actually criticised iOS for not supporting flash.

This doesn't necessarily mean those suggestions are good ones, or that they are representative of the wishes of the iPhone user base as a whole.

I don't think I like short battery life either, but I would be largely indifferent to extra battery life when my phone is already ending the day with 40-60% battery life, especially when it doesn't really improve my current user experience.

Are you on 6S or 6S+? Because the 6S+ has excellent battery, everyone I know of says it last an entire day and/or two. The 6S+ is great but the 6S is a completely different beast, battery lasts far less. This is why Apple only makes a battery case for the 6S but not the 6S+.

So I think most criticism regarding battery life goes to the 6s, with the complaint of, why make it thinner when it's already mediocre and to fix it one has to spend $100 on an ugly, BULKY, expensive battery case? For the 6S it would actually make more sense to make it 1mm for example to match the battery life of 6S+, right?