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When to Expect New M4 MacBook Air, Mac Studio, and Mac Pro Models
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First of all it’s about volume and making the best use of fabrication capacity. The higher end SoCs are much larger and cannot be produced in the volumes as the other variants. New fabs are expensive, so getting as many chips out of a platter takes precedence over all else. So A-series, Base M-Series, Pro/Max M-Series, then Ultra M-series.
Furthermore, we won’t see a jump in the Max variant like we did with the M3 Max from the M2 Max. The M3 generation is an anomaly due to the node process - just look at the M3 Pro, which actually wasn’t any better than the M2 Pro.
The M5 Max will not come close to how the M4 Ultra performs, I bet even the M6 Max will still be less performant than the M4 Ultra.
However, here’s what I think the rest of the M4 line will be…
M4 Ultra 20CPU/60GPU and 24CPU/72GPU (Mac Studio and Mac Pro)
M4 Extreme 28CPU/84GPU and 32CPU/96GPU (Mac Pro only)
Gurman’s rumor is of a “variation” for the M4 Max in the base Studio, so it seems like it could be a sort of Max+ — Max, but with additional GPU cores and the interconnect wiring for the Ultra. Like the relationship between the Pro and the Max in M1/M2.
Sorry, I'm not following what you mean by "Max+ — Max, but with additional GPU cores and the interconnect wiring for the Ultra". Do you have a reference for this?
Here Gurman is saying the M4 Ultra will simply be 2 x the current M4 Max, at least in terms of GPU and CPU core counts. So if they are using the current M4 Max in the Ultra, why would they have a an entirely different M4 Max for the Studio?
I.e., if they were to make a new M4 Max variant for the Studio, with more than 40 GPU cores, wouldn't they use that in the M4 Ultra as well? The fact that Gurman is saying the M4 Ultra will have only 80 GPU cores seems to indicate he thinks they won't be making a new high-GPU M4 Max for the Studio.
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My "Max+" is a reference to Gurman's actual older statement, as follows: "For the Mac Studio, Apple is testing versions with both a still-unreleased M3-era chip and a variation of the M4 Brava processor." I read that as the unreleased M3 chip being experimental, and the Brava "variation" being an M4 version of that.
I choose to remain ignorant of statements Gurman has made walking that back, and I hang my hat on the fact that M3 Ultra did not happen, and yet everything changed with regard to the Pro/Max relationship.
And yes, my thinking is that it would be used in the M4 Ultra as well. That's the whole point. You've got one Max without the interconnect, and one with it. They are mostly the same, but it's an opportunity to do some things differently for the Studio/Ultra. In the context of this thread, the question was why doesn't Apple release the M4 Max Mac Studio right away? One possible explanation is that, going forward, the Max Studio will have its own variant, distinct from the one in the MacBook Pro.
They are money makers per unit, but they lack the volume sales and hence why they get pushed to the bottom of the queue I suspect. Basically they get done when everything else that sells in volume has been sorted and I can't see Apple changing that. For enthusiasts that buy these for themselves or a small SOHO business that can be disappointing, but for other larger businesses not so much. Where they appear in the product refresh cycle and what cool new toy is coming down the road is just not that relevant. Meeting current business requirements so they can make money today is.
It sounds like you're saying the M4 Max in the MBP doesn't have an Ultrafusion interface, while the one designed for the Studio will. But do we know for certain the M4 Max in the MBP doesn't have an Ultrafusion interface? Is this something you can tell from the die shots? Were they able to identify this interface on the die shots of the M1 and M2 Max?
Ummm Ok, let me restate the question:
Has anyone upgraded either the memory OR processor on the M2 Mac pro via a simple logic board swap?
There are two versions of the M2 Ultra used in the Mac Pro. 60 vs 76 GPU cores. So in theory either memory or processor or both can be upgraded by simply installing an upgraded logic board.
My point (above) is logic board upgrades are possible now but it's not happening. So it's never going to happen.Why won’t it happen? It could still be the case — everything is on one huge board, switching it out is easily done.
An upgrade kit would just need the logic board and the Thunderbolt card. Internal SSD(s) could be brought over from the old board.
I really think they should offer nano texture option on the air.
It's likely to be used outside, etc. and it really is a decent upgrade for that!
It's likely to be used outside, etc. and it really is a decent upgrade for that!
Oh, I see. I can be a bit thick. They are available now for repairs (obviously) — it would be interesting to see the prices, just as a baseline. I wonder if it’s like the Mac Studio, where (as I understand it) they won’t sell you an upgrade for a repair, you can only get a replacement for what you have.
But the Macintosh has a long history of upgrade kits, at least in the beginning. I think I’ll argue that there’s a difference between replacing a part and upgrading a part, and while Apple doesn’t sell replacement parts at retail profit margins, they would be selling these hypothetical upgrade kits at retail prices. So they’re not the same thing.
Superior compared to x86 cpus, but only matches mid-level gpus, while the cpu and the gpu competes for the bandwidth. UMA only saves you from copying between system and video ram, but that's a diminishing advantage as the tasks get longer and more complex.
That could be interesting. Like they did with the iBook many years ago.
I'd get an M4 MBA with nano texture display.
It could be something Apple is working towards, but considering that the MBA is likely their most popular Mac, Apple might be worried they cannot keep up with demand.
A lot of good points, especially about the Mac Studio parts only being replaceable with what the machine had (no upgrades). Apple parts distribution controls this via serial number when ordering replacements. Yes, repair parts are lower margin, but parts are parts so upgrade kits are technically possible. Apple would just have to create new SKUs for upgrades and they could sell at a higher margin. So the only thing preventing this even now is Apple doesn't want to do it.
[sarcasm]
I really hope the entire M4 Mac line does not have user-upgradable storage and user-upgradable memory. It's most important for Apple to maximize profits to please extremely rich shareholders, and that wonderful human Tim Cook knows the best way to do that is to pressure customers to buy expensive new Macs when they need more internal storage and memory instead of buying inexpensive third-party SSDs and inexpensive third-party RAM.
[/sarcasm]
I really hope the entire M4 Mac line does not have user-upgradable storage and user-upgradable memory. It's most important for Apple to maximize profits to please extremely rich shareholders, and that wonderful human Tim Cook knows the best way to do that is to pressure customers to buy expensive new Macs when they need more internal storage and memory instead of buying inexpensive third-party SSDs and inexpensive third-party RAM.
[/sarcasm]
With music production, P-core count is what matters most. I am anxious to see what the M4 Mac Studio might ship with. The upper-end Studios seem to emphasize high GPU core counts, which recording musicians don't really need (unless, of course, Apple figures out a way to offload certain audio plugin processing to GPUs).
In a year I'll be eligible once again for an interest-free computer loan from the school I work for. Either a spec'd out M4 Mini or a more entry-level M4 Studio may be my 2025 Christmas gift to myself and my home studio.
In a year I'll be eligible once again for an interest-free computer loan from the school I work for. Either a spec'd out M4 Mini or a more entry-level M4 Studio may be my 2025 Christmas gift to myself and my home studio.
No, we don’t know one way or the other. It’s just a theory, based on circumstances and a specific rumor. I don’t know of any M4 Max die shots that have been published. You also ask a good question about whether or not an actual die shot would be useful. For M1/M2/M3 we had Apple’s own die-shot graphics (illustrating relative sizes) to compare with any actual die shots. We don’t have that for M4, at least not as yet. We could still see the graphics in the Mac Studio/Pro launch presentation.
My guess is maybe Apple is trying to avoid the brouhaha that erupted around the M3 die-shot graphics. Not just with regard to the missing UltraFusion interface, but also adding fuel to the fire with regard to changes in the relationship between Pro and Max.
I think it’s important to understand that while Apple can use graphic artists to make the die shots look good, they can’t misrepresent them. They have to be reliable representations of the actual dies. So maybe there is something in the M4 die shots that would set off a media firestorm, like, say, no UltraFusion interface. Or something else they would rather keep under wraps for now. I don’t know.
OK, I think I was able track down what's going on with the rumors:
I've read that, on third-party die shots, one could see the Ultrafusion interconnect on the M1 Max and M2 Max, but not on the M3 Max. This triggered speculation that the M3 Ultra would not be 2 x M3 Max, and instead be 1 x M3 "Hidra"—and that there would be an M3 Extreme that would be 2 x M3 Hidra.
Of course, we never got an M3 Studio, so that rumor remains unresolved. It will be interesting to see what the third-party M4 Max die shots look like. But even that might not resolve things, since it's possible the M4 Ultra will still be 2 x M4 Max, but use an interconnect different from the Ultrafusion (e.g., 3D chip stacking).
Note also that all of this would only affect the M4 Ultra Studio and M4 Mac Pro. AFAICT, there's noting these rumors that would impact the configuration of the M4 Max Studio, which would still be expected to use the same M4 Max chip as in the MBP.
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